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Change development priorities - address technical debt ASAP (aka ancient engine rewamp) - when will this happen?


darek

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Dear ED,

It's very, very disappointing... Buying several modules, learning F/A-18 and F-16 in some smaller missions to be battle-ready you launch some of the more complex official available missions, with more enemies. And you got glitch after glitch in the same parts of these missions.

I got a real-deal rig with 3080Ti, 100 GB of RAM, 12 cores and it's hardly utilized during these glitches. There are hundreds of similar opinions all over the Internet... It looks like your engine is extremely inefficient and gets blocked by some parts of the simulation. How much fun do you think it is to fly the 2vs2 missions over and over again when there are really polished ones with plenty of targets.

Why, instead of producing yet-another module ED won't focus on the BASE of the game and only then build on top of it? More and more people migrate to the new IL-2 which in terms of fluency and hardware utilization does circles around DCS...

I was always a big fan of DCS, but after all these years of stagnation and unfulfilled promises of delivering engine optimizations I have enough. DCS adds "bling" and new modules whereas the base of the simulation is still ridiculously inefficient for users who have already invested money and trusted in your platform and promises.

I saw the roadmap. But it looks like the communication around multi-threading and Vulcan is non-existing. Is it even happening? Any tech-demos? What's the FTE allocation of your team to this comparing to rest of the features?  What's the roadmap and milestones for these improvements? When will this happen? I literally stop playing DCS last year waiting for something to happen, to prevent frustration from spoiling my love to this game.



 


Edited by darek
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While I am happy when a new module comes out, I would really love to see Eagle focus on overhauling the engine. DCS doesn't support multi-core and multi GPUs. Then VR support is a mess.  These things need to be addressed ASAP.  

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9 minutes ago, Nomatic said:

They are

 

Thank you for posting this. Looks like this was missed from weekly newsletters as I don't recall anything like this and I'm waiting for this info impatiently as you can see as frustration took over 🙂 Still no dates nor release milestones declaration, though. Info looks good any way and implementation details look promising.

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While I am happy when a new module comes out, I would really love to see Eagle focus on overhauling the engine. DCS doesn't support multi-core and multi GPUs. Then VR support is a mess.  These things need to be addressed ASAP.  
ED core team has overhauling the engine with multithread ald Vulcan. Has only matter of time...

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I just hope that ED focuses on finishing multi-threading engine first and deploy it to production ASAP. Next VR as more and more users are using it (no turning back after you took a flight in VR) and it still falls behind competing product performance-wise.

IMHO Vulcan could really wait for the next iteration of the engine.  DCS is shinny enough now, it just crawls like a snail.


Edited by darek
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On 2/2/2022 at 7:12 PM, darek said:

Dear ED,

It's very, very disappointing... Buying several modules, learning F/A-18 and F-16 in some smaller missions to be battle-ready you launch some of the more complex official available missions, with more enemies. And you got glitch after glitch in the same parts of these missions.

I got a real-deal rig with 3080Ti, 100 GB of RAM, 12 cores and it's hardly utilized during these glitches. There are hundreds of similar opinions all over the Internet... It looks like your engine is extremely inefficient and gets blocked by some parts of the simulation. How much fun do you think it is to fly the 2vs2 missions over and over again when there are really polished ones with plenty of targets.

Why, instead of producing yet-another module ED won't focus on the BASE of the game and only then build on top of it? More and more people migrate to the new IL-2 which in terms of fluency and hardware utilization does circles around DCS...

I was always a big fan of DCS, but after all these years of stagnation and unfulfilled promises of delivering engine optimizations I have enough. DCS adds "bling" and new modules whereas the base of the simulation is still ridiculously inefficient for users who have already invested money and trusted in your platform and promises.

I saw the roadmap. But it looks like the communication around multi-threading and Vulcan is non-existing. Is it even happening? Any tech-demos? What's the FTE allocation of your team to this comparing to rest of the features?  What's the roadmap and milestones for these improvements? When will this happen? I literally stop playing DCS last year waiting for something to happen, to prevent frustration from spoiling my love to this game.



 

 

We'd all like to see core performance improvements, no doubt about it. But as you probably know, it's the new "bling" modules that keep DCS afloat.

I'm guessing here, as nobody but ED knows their strategy exactly, but I can only imagine that it's the revenue of these new modules that allow ED to work on core optimization/changes.

Remember that unlike the ww2 sim that you mentioned, ED is offering players their virtual world for free. Without the modules they would have 0 income.

Also, could you point out on where you got those figures from, that more and more people are migrating to that other sim?

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2 hours ago, sirrah said:

We'd all like to see core performance improvements, no doubt about it. But as you probably know, it's the new "bling" modules that keep DCS afloat.

I'm guessing here, as nobody but ED knows their strategy exactly, but I can only imagine that it's the revenue of these new modules that allow ED to work on core optimization/changes.

Remember that unlike the ww2 sim that you mentioned, ED is offering players their virtual world for free. Without the modules they would have 0 income.

Also, could you point out on where you got those figures from, that more and more people are migrating to that other sim?

The fact the new modules is what keeps ED afloat is the reason ask how a module can fix things. The multicore and Vulkan can't be fixed like that. I don't know which would benifit DCS most and I don't care which comes out first I just want them out ASAP 

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8 hours ago, darek said:

and it still falls behind competing product performance-wise.


then why aren’t you flying those products, instead of ranting here?

I find it funny when new users start to give ED advice on development priorities, like they are expert advisors … really funny. 

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12 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

I find it funny when new users start to give ED advice on development priorities, like they are expert advisors … really funny. 

There is a non-insignificant number of software professionals in this community, who know where to look, what to call the issues, and what "good" in terms of managing the issues looks like.

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13 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:


then why aren’t you flying those products, instead of ranting here?

I find it funny when new users start to give ED advice on development priorities, like they are expert advisors … really funny. 

First of all. My rant is because I care. And I really love this game. First wrong assumption you made: I'm not a new user.
Second one: what are your actual qualifications, so that you think you can asses my proficiency in software projects management? I'm in this business for 25 years, don't be rude.


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13 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:


then why aren’t you flying those products, instead of ranting here?

I find it funny when new users start to give ED advice on development priorities, like they are expert advisors … really funny. 

Go take a bubble bath dude. Who are you to tell the op what his opinion is or if it’s valid…

15 hours ago, upyr1 said:

The fact the new modules is what keeps ED afloat is the reason ask how a module can fix things. The multicore and Vulkan can't be fixed like that. I don't know which would benifit DCS most and I don't care which comes out first I just want them out ASAP 

True to some degree and admittedly VR is a smaller slice. 
But for me as an example. I have the money. I could get that 3090. Move up to a faster I9 than the one I have. Heck, I can go by multiple cpu’s if need be but if it doesn’t make a bit of difference, why would I. 
so maybe there is additional revenue to be made simply by optimizing the product?  Can’t say for sure naturally because I can’t see the whole picture but….

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42 minutes ago, darek said:

First wrong assumption you made: I'm not a new user


you are a 15 post user created last year, forgive me for assuming that you are new 

 

42 minutes ago, darek said:

Second one: what are your actual qualifications, so that you think you can asses my proficiency in software projects management? I'm in this business for 25 years, don't be rude


I know that you have absolutely no data on which to base a change on priorities: You don’t know what is the actual income of ED, don’t know what are their actual costs, don’t know the market size, the sales breakdown by product … just attempting to get ED to change priorities without having any data is funny, forgive me for laughing at it.

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10 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:


you are a 15 post user created last year, forgive me for assuming that you are new 

I know that you have absolutely no data on which to base a change on priorities: You don’t know what is the actual income of ED, don’t know what are their actual costs, don’t know the market size, the sales breakdown by product … just attempting to get ED to change priorities without having any data is funny, forgive me for laughing at it.

Fair enough, let's bury the hatchet 🙂


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11 minutes ago, Germane said:

I have a stupid question: What is the difference between Vulcan and multi-threading? Is it not the same? Both are about multi core support, aren't they?

no, they would both improve things though

Vulkan is a graphics engine/ library similar to Direct X or Open GL 

multithreading-I think they really mean multicore. Multithreading is when an app divides up tasks into small thread. This is highly simplidied but will give you an idea. If you are flying a mission against a sam sight one thread will be your fighter while an other thread will be the SAM and a third thread will be the graphics and so forth. With the way DCS does everything it is on one CPU core. What is being done here is they will put those threads on differnt cpu cores

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1 hour ago, darek said:

First of all. My rant is because I care. And I really love this game. First wrong assumption you made: I'm not a new user.
Second one: what are your actual qualifications, so that you think you can asses my proficiency in software projects management? I'm in this business for 25 years, don't be rude.

 

Eagle Dynamics has more 25 years on the bussines.... Matt Wagner has working on other Game Develop companies  as EA/Jane’s Combat Simulations (F-15 and F/A-18) before reach Eagle Dynamics. Nick Grey has The Fighter Collection.... Do you think they not have a solid plan with a product of near 10 years old? 


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8 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Eagle Dynamics has more 25 years on the bussines.... Matt Wagner has working on other Game Develop companies as Microsoft and Janne´s before reach Eagle Dynamics. Nick Grey has The Fighter Collection.... Do you think they not have a solid plan with a product of near 10 years old? 

Hey, your work on the roadmap is amazing BTW. I went through it yesterday and if ED would add some dates (even with quarterly resolution) that would be exactly what I was looking for.  That would be a thing that would mean a lot for impatient hot-heads like me. I simply wait for the engine overhaul since circa 2016 🙂

The additional performance drop was very visible around beta builds from 2017/2018 - before that I got a mission with 50 WW2 warbirds furballing in 2 teams on the sky. Great perception training 🙂 After the changes everything was down to 5 fps from 60 fps.


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1 minute ago, darek said:

Hey, your work on the roadmap is amazing BTW. I went through it yesterday and if ED would add some dates (even with quarterly resolution) that would be exactly what I was looking for.  That would be a thing that would mean a lot for impatient hot-heads as me.

ED was put "dates" on the past.... and was used as a weapon by someone. From the last (where are my X) ED has no get a roadmap that year, take care and wait for news.

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  • ED Team
On 2/2/2022 at 6:12 PM, darek said:

Dear ED,

It's very, very disappointing... Buying several modules, learning F/A-18 and F-16 in some smaller missions to be battle-ready you launch some of the more complex official available missions, with more enemies. And you got glitch after glitch in the same parts of these missions.

I got a real-deal rig with 3080Ti, 100 GB of RAM, 12 cores and it's hardly utilized during these glitches. There are hundreds of similar opinions all over the Internet... It looks like your engine is extremely inefficient and gets blocked by some parts of the simulation. How much fun do you think it is to fly the 2vs2 missions over and over again when there are really polished ones with plenty of targets.

Why, instead of producing yet-another module ED won't focus on the BASE of the game and only then build on top of it? More and more people migrate to the new IL-2 which in terms of fluency and hardware utilization does circles around DCS...

I was always a big fan of DCS, but after all these years of stagnation and unfulfilled promises of delivering engine optimizations I have enough. DCS adds "bling" and new modules whereas the base of the simulation is still ridiculously inefficient for users who have already invested money and trusted in your platform and promises.

I saw the roadmap. But it looks like the communication around multi-threading and Vulcan is non-existing. Is it even happening? Any tech-demos? What's the FTE allocation of your team to this comparing to rest of the features?  What's the roadmap and milestones for these improvements? When will this happen? I literally stop playing DCS last year waiting for something to happen, to prevent frustration from spoiling my love to this game.



 

 

Appreciate you are concerned, but the best people to manage the priorities are our project managers, also please note we do not stop work on core projects for modules, core projects have their own dev team.  

We will be sharing news on all of our ongoing projects this year as we get closer to showing public versions of them, multicore and vulkan work continues and is going well. 

best regards 

Bignewy

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Just now, BIGNEWY said:

Appreciate you are concerned, but the best people to manage the priorities are our project managers, also please note we do not stop work on core projects for modules, core projects have their own dev team.  

We will be sharing news on all of our ongoing projects this year as we get closer to showing public versions of them, multicore and vulkan work continues and is going well. 

best regards 

Bignewy

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate this.

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  • ED Team
21 minutes ago, darek said:

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate this.

No worries, thank you for your passion and support, and we truly mean that, without you all we would not be here. 

 

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Hey on the subject of the multicore newsletter, I guess I had skipped over the "dynamic lights" aspect. What exactly does this refer to?

 

Does that mean we'll have multiple light sources finally, and cockpits and planes won't be pitch black when sitting underneath airport lights finally?


Edited by XCNuse
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4 hours ago, Germane said:

 Vulcan

  New graphics API. The guts that control how DCS handles graphics processing. GPU (think Nvidia and Radeon)

4 hours ago, Germane said:

multi-threading

  Processing for non-graphics related tasks, like AI, physics, etc etc (Think AMD/Intel). Currently DCS is limited to two cores, so if you've got a big fancy 16-core processor it doesn't do you any good. DCS core engine processes are from a time when ''moar cores'' was not such a thing yet and we all still thought 4gb of ram was ''a lot''.

 

2 hours ago, XCNuse said:

the "dynamic lights" aspect. What exactly does this refer to?

  Dynamic lighting would indeed be simulated light sources. At present ''light'' is just a brightened patch of texture, that's why it looks ''wrong'' and doesn't illuminate the environment properly. Again, holdover from the olden days, it's a cheap easy way to fake ''light''.

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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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