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AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion


IronMike

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2 hours ago, ldnz said:

I am struggling now with just how good the AI is at notching. See attached tacview - what could I do better here? Doesn't look like there was any attempt to reacquire as they came out of the notch as well. But I can repeat this every time. Very hard to get a hit on these guys. Using Mk60s and a bigger loft + higher speed doesn't really change anything, doesn't seem to be a function of terminal speed. 

Tacview-20220206-090754-DCS-f14 bvr range.zip.acmi 296.63 kB · 4 downloads

The AI is simply incredible at notching, chaffing, etc, especially the Su-30s can be a pita. That said, again tactics need to be applied properly and ranges set up for ideal shots, not range.

Check out the 3 tacviews below, I roughly made the same setup like you. Cranking is key, and if one of them manages to notch one away, it is still opening a window for you to push in with the aim7, on purpose I only took 2 phoenixes for each shot. It is a bit weird that one of them always managed to notch and always in the same way, but that is an AI issue, and I did several tests between Rookie and Veteran, funny enough, the rookie AI performed in parts even better. So that's just DCS AI for you...

You can see how I aid the long range mk60 in the launch, by being high and fast and pitching into its loft, but that isn't ideal. More ideal are both cranking maneuvers and closer in shots, for both C and mk60, and with the mk60 closer in, none of the AIs manage to notch it anymore. Hope that helps.

2xSu30_Amk60.acmi 2xSu30_Amk60_long.acmi 2xSu30_Cmk47.acmi

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1 hour ago, IronMike said:

The AI is simply incredible at notching, chaffing, etc, especially the Su-30s can be a pita. That said, again tactics need to be applied properly and ranges set up for ideal shots, not range.

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen any of my Phoenix shots go for chaff in many updates now. None of your attached Tacview files, or the person you're replying to either. I feel like ED made a stealth change to the CM system somewhere along the way, because I used to see 80% of my phoenix shots get trashed by chaff six months ago, and I never see it happen any more.

 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not complaining. Just an observation.


Edited by Callsign JoNay
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1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen any of my Phoenix shots go for chaff in many updates now. None of your attached Tacview files, or the person you're replying to either. I feel like ED made a stealth change to the CM system somewhere along the way, because I used to see 80% of my phoenix shots get trashed by chaff six months ago, and I never see it happen any more.

 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not complaining. Just an observation.

 

Oh it still goes for chaff, trust me, I've seen it fairly often in my tests. I believe in the mk60 long tacview it did as well? would have to rewatch it, but while putting them together, it went for it several times when I was testing out tactics.

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3 hours ago, IronMike said:

The AI is simply incredible at notching, chaffing, etc, especially the Su-30s can be a pita. That said, again tactics need to be applied properly and ranges set up for ideal shots, not range.

Check out the 3 tacviews below, I roughly made the same setup like you. Cranking is key, and if one of them manages to notch one away, it is still opening a window for you to push in with the aim7, on purpose I only took 2 phoenixes for each shot. It is a bit weird that one of them always managed to notch and always in the same way, but that is an AI issue, and I did several tests between Rookie and Veteran, funny enough, the rookie AI performed in parts even better. So that's just DCS AI for you...

You can see how I aid the long range mk60 in the launch, by being high and fast and pitching into its loft, but that isn't ideal. More ideal are both cranking maneuvers and closer in shots, for both C and mk60, and with the mk60 closer in, none of the AIs manage to notch it anymore. Hope that helps.

2xSu30_Amk60.acmi 165.39 kB · 6 downloads 2xSu30_Amk60_long.acmi 166.56 kB · 8 downloads 2xSu30_Cmk47.acmi 247.63 kB · 7 downloads

Cheers will review. Appreciate the time in putting these tacviews together.

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Hey bud, I will carefully say, this isn't as much of a gorilla in the room, but rather a mirage based on impressions and also assumptions to a fair extend. We set the ccm values in accordance to what ED thinks they are best set to for the aim54, based on the fact that the seekers evolved over time - something that has been discussed on these forums ad nausem, in multiple threads, time and time again - just on a sidenote. Until we transition it to the new guidance API, and see how it behaves then (we also have no influence on notch resistance, and if anything I would suggest it is too easy to be notched atm), we have no intention on changing that. It could very well be that the aim120 is too easy to be notched in comparison, but I honestly would not know and thus would not want to draw any such conclusions from comparisons either. As I said: "impressions and guesswork..." All we can do is take all the data we know at hand, and make our best educated guess, present these results to ED and use the values they suggest for it to be most appropriate.

The "50 years" comparison between aim120c and aim54A also does not hold true just as much as it appears on the first look, as we know that the seekerheads have been updated over time. The moment it was developed does not bare as much factor as the moment in time when it still got used, and in DCS there is no such thing as different seekerheads bound to different moments in time, or historic settings - which is why we so no reason to go down that path if no other missile does either. Hope that makes sense - if you want to dig in to that more, please search for the aim54 ccm thread. This topic has really been pondered ... a lot.

I would also like to kindly ask everyone to keep this thread on topic about predominantly performance, so we do not go down the CCM rabbit hole again and keep turning in circles with much discussed topics that are not part of the recent changes this thread focuses on. Please keep in mind: we will update the Tomcat's jamming and ECCM stuff, and once the transition to the new guidance API is done (which for the time being we cannot give you any estimates of as to when it is to happen), we will also revisit chaff resistance and notch resistance of the AIM-54s. Please also keep in mind that this does not mean that it may significantly change, if at all, and in what direction. Especially since the type of seekers used in the AIM54As are actually rather effective against the type of chaff that is present in DCS. Thank you for your kind understanding.
Without having read the entire thread, I just want to say that, indeed, the AIM-120 does get spoofed way too easily at the moment, based on discussions in several threads in the general DCS Bugs section.

I've written before, on the subject of the relative performance of the 54 vs the 120 and I do maintain that the 120C5 should have better ECCM, chaff and clutter rejection etc, but in this case, I agree with you. ED should fix the behavior of the 120, make it behave like a modern missile and then this topic can be revisited. No point in making the 54 worse than the current 120, only to reverse the change later.

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Ok @Slayer 1-1 and @shrimpy_dikdik - first of all, thank you for your feedback. However, as you may imagine, there is a "but" coming... 😅

I went and reflew most of the missions or setups some guys here had problems with, and it was a really long day, but I said to myself, you are right: AI is one thing and online is online. So, I went and joined the 104th Phoenix Server, joined teamspeak, talked to the boys, and flew for another few hours to re-verify that, too.

The thing I will say upfront, guys, is this: you had the phoenix after these changes now for barely two days. And already you draw conclusions. You need to give yourselves time to adjust to it, and to re-learn how to use it. Besides, especially online, picking targets, SA, knowing whom you fight and how, etc. all plays a big role. I can really, really advise strongly: take a couple weeks with it, then come back and draw conclusions. I've flown on MP servers for nigh 20 years, in a squadron that prides itself to be among the best, we trained hard, worked hard, learned hard, fought hard. And it took years to get to the level we got. The fruits that we can pick now from this investment, is that we can adapt to pretty much anything quickly. We've seen amraam ranges go from 40 to 8 to 20 to 30 to whatever nautical miles, and we always shared one mindset, and one mindset alone: it is never the missile's fault. Ever. It is always, 100%, the pilot's fault. Always, no exceptions, and I am speaking strictly online PvP now. This was a mindset necessary to develop with the drastic changes missiles sometimes went through in DCS. And it helped hoan our skills beyond relying on a set-in-stone definition of "do this at that range", etc. and it helped replace expectations with an active approach towards building SA - on the spot. But it takes a lot of time to get there. This just upfront, now please let me share my findings during my online flying tonight.

Yes, ranges need to be adapted. But!

You say a split-S defeats the phoenix? I cannot remember when I did not defeat an amramm with a split S... You say you get into the amraam range, when you engage a Viper? In what range do you get if you fly the Viper vs a Viper itself then? Just two things to ponder as well, before we get into the meat of it...

Within my first 10 min I scored a 35nm kill against a Viper. (me around 35k, the viper around 45k)
I scored a below 10nm shot on an Su33 in the weeds who immediately turned cold and ran, connected, kill. (me below 10k, the flanker in the weeds, the phoenix even followed him into the valley.)
I scored a just below 5nm tail chase shot on a supersonic F-15 running away from me over the water.
I scored a 12nm kill on a Tomcat abeam, which stayed abeam, connected, killed. (I was below 10k, and I did the above 3 specifically from down low to see how it behaves.)
My wingman, 104th_Blackbird scored a ~40nm kill on a Viper (high and high) and as he said a ~30nm kill and a ~50nm (forgot what his bandits were for the latter two, but I think 1 Viper and 1 Tomcat - I did not see them myself).
Paladin scored a ~30nm and ~40nm kill and I think one or two medium to long range kills more, can't remember now.
104th_Octuplefire scored a 60nm kill as per his report yesterday. None of the guys I spoke with reported the phoenix being shabby by any means. Much shorter down low, for sure, but workable.
I got killed only once by a Viper in the merge with a high off-bore aim9x, because Jester and I did not pick up the closer and lower Viper. However: that furball was gone after that. Everyone else was running cold, still afraid of the phoenix, as they should be.
Blackbird and I CAPed the target area for 30 min - not one single bandit came close during these 30 min, because Tomcats. And we were outgunned on blue two to one at all times during the session.
Whenever a Tomcat approached from the red side, guess what I heard my buddies say instinctively? "Oh <profanity>, an F-14!"
At no point during the session an AIM120 ever got dangerous to me. I had to defend overall iirc 2, or maybe 3. And I defended them easily.

I would post the tacview of the entire session, alas it is to big to attach here (and also see reasons mentioned below).

The bottom line of what I saw, and from what I heard from the guys however is this: the Tomcat still remains the monster-schreck, the online-scare. I don't fly on Growling Sidewinder, but from what I hear, it is a lone-wolfing, pushing for the kill, no self-preservation kinda server, which is fine, ofc. But think a bit more coordinated flying, more skilled pilots around, more teamwork being present, objectives being worked, think Blueflag, etc. - events even... The Tomcat will still shine, where it shines best: keeping the long range threats at bay. If you do not react to a long range phoenix, you still buy it. But if you play the head-on 20k ft I crank you and you crank me game-of-endless-recommits, then you are basically playing to their advantages. Talent is in the choice, so you need to pick well, whom you engage, and how you engage them. We fly in multiships, and while the bandit will concentrate on my buddy, I will make him pay for it and vice versa. I need to put only one Tomcat and fire on all subsequent guys my long range phoenixes, and we have time to deal with all the closer threats. I can still only park my radar over the friendlies, and every bandit will think twice if he wants to play my game up close or not. It still puts their slammers at bay.

But fly a 1 vs 1 lonewolf scenario in a mix, with a guy who is hellbent on you, then ofc, the game changes. And you need to work him in, to put him on the defense, and then you can easily lob missiles from closer ranges that still connect and still hurt plenty, if you beat him at it.

For all that I have seen, the phoenix is still very much in the game for me, the Tomcat still my go-to plane, and the threat really not so threatening from where I am sitting at. But I choose my targets well, I do not play to their game, instead I make them play my game, and I trained many years to have the SA that is needed to sort bandits in such a manner that they will have to fear me, and I do not have to fear them. It takes a lot of work, always has, always will. And it takes time, when the performance of a missile changes to get to know it again, to adapt it. I did nothing but fire phoenixes for the past week or more. Naturally, I have a headstart here. So again and again, I can only recommend: take the time to get to know it again, to adapt again, and don't expect full head on shots on the most aware bandit of yours to not be defeated. It works both ways: all of their shots got defeated by me, too.

This is not a rebuke for what you guys said. It is meant as encouragement to go out there and to be patient, until you feel the missile again, until you have altered your expectations accordingly and adjusted to the new reality. It is by far not a worse reality by a stretch, and the Tomcat still remains the longest stick and biggest threat in the house, precisely because if you do not defend its long range shots, you die. You know, killing someone is not everything always, it is often enough if they turn cold, or stay away, or do not bother to come back for more. And when I fly, my goal is not to have the most kills on the server, but actually the least deaths. And as long as I wield the phoenix, I will always remain one of the guys who has the least of them online. If you adapt this mindset, I promise you, so will you. 

Here are just some screenshots I took from the tacview, as it is too big to attach (and I don't want to expose everyone else to the scrutiny of this thread):

[If any of you find yourselves in the screenshots and want them removed, pls let me know. My apologies upfront, anyone presented here was a formidable opponent and did really well!]


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(^^this one did not hit, but look how he's running and what his 120s did... I killed him then in the 5nm chase shot)

 

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[EDIT: ^^this shot actually separated from the aircraft at 7.6nm, I remembered pressing the trigger just above 10nm when he was abeam, but as I was fast, it launched close in, and that time he was hot and then turned cold, he was abeam only when I pressed the trigger, for clarification, I reviewed it again.]
 

grafik.png

And these are just few examples from a very joyful and succesful 2-3hr session.

I can only repeat it: give it time, everyone, relearn the missile and let it become second nature again. Then make your judgement. 🙂

Thank you, and happy flying!

grafik.png


Edited by IronMike
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I may add, on top of all these replies and comparisons: we are certain there is room left for improvement. Certainly there are situations where we feel the missile still for example may not pick up enough speed (or counter the slowing down) in a steep descent, may lack in some or another area a bit, our (and ED's) CFD may be slightly conservative, the guidance can be improved (and will still get transfered to the new missile API at some point), in short a little bit of "oomph" may be still missing here and there. And we will continue to improve it. Just manage your expectations please, and do not expect it to be the magic uber-stick that will hit anything you'd like from 50+ nautical miles. It still remains the longest stick in the game as is. Against AI or non AI. 🙂


Edited by IronMike
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28 minutes ago, Hardcard said:

@IronMike

Could you please share a link to the full tacview track?  
 

Unfortunately no, simply because this was a regular night on the server, not an event, and I did not let anyone know what I was doing, hence I would not like to expose anyone to the kind of scrutiny this thread gets without their permission. If it was just me, I'd share it gladly. I kind of already feel bad for including the guys in the screenshots from the tacview tbh, suffice to say: they all flew well and deserve praise, nothing else! (Also I screwed up my case1 at the end and don't want you to see that! 😄)

But what we can do, is have a fly with me/against me next weekend, and then everyone who is interested can fly along and will have their own tacview from it for themselves, if that is something you guys are up for. In the meantime you will have had time to adjust to the new missile performance a bit more, too.

And now, if you excuse me, I shall drop dead in my bed. 🙂 Good night all!

EDIT: what I could do during the next week is maybe record my and a few select engagements and post up a condensed video, if I find the time for it. The tacview is also almost 3hrs long.


Edited by IronMike
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7 hours ago, IronMike said:

Oh it still goes for chaff, trust me, I've seen it fairly often in my tests. I believe in the mk60 long tacview it did as well? would have to rewatch it, but while putting them together, it went for it several times when I was testing out tactics.

Only against the AI super chaff (which somehow is much more effective than player chaff in DCS).

I have yet to see an Aim-120 or Aim-54 go for chaff in probably the last year of multiplayer flying, but I recently saw an Aim-120 go for chaff against AI. I could not believe my eyes!

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14 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

Only against the AI super chaff (which somehow is much more effective than player chaff in DCS).

I have yet to see an Aim-120 or Aim-54 go for chaff in probably the last year of multiplayer flying, but I recently saw an Aim-120 go for chaff against AI. I could not believe my eyes!

If you have a track replay showing this please make a new thread so we can take a look. 

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6 hours ago, IronMike said:

Unfortunately no, simply because this was a regular night on the server, not an event, and I did not let anyone know what I was doing, hence I would not like to expose anyone to the kind of scrutiny this thread gets without their permission. If it was just me, I'd share it gladly. I kind of already feel bad for including the guys in the screenshots from the tacview tbh, suffice to say: they all flew well and deserve praise, nothing else! (Also I screwed up my case1 at the end and don't want you to see that! 😄)

But what we can do, is have a fly with me/against me next weekend, and then everyone who is interested can fly along and will have their own tacview from it for themselves, if that is something you guys are up for. In the meantime you will have had time to adjust to the new missile performance a bit more, too.

And now, if you excuse me, I shall drop dead in my bed. 🙂 Good night all!

EDIT: what I could do during the next week is maybe record my and a few select engagements and post up a condensed video, if I find the time for it. The tacview is also almost 3hrs long.

 

Iron Mike. Please come fly on the DDCS server. Those guys will make you work for it haha 😂

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7 hours ago, IronMike said:

And these are just few examples from a very joyful and successful 2-3hr session.

 

grafik.png

 

     Wish I had been on the server with you guys. I was on with Paladin earlier, but I had already got off. I'm usually the only "Tomcat guy" on the server when I'm on.

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2 minutes ago, Skarp said:

Iron Mike. Please come fly on the DDCS server. Those guys will make you work for it haha 😂

All the good PvP servers make you work for it, that's the point. I've been hearing this line for nigh 2 decades. "Come to our server, we're better..." I shiver already... 😛

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1 hour ago, ShinyMikey said:

     Wish I had been on the server with you guys. I was on with Paladin earlier, but I had already got off. I'm usually the only "Tomcat guy" on the server when I'm on.

Funny enough, after about 45 min of us flying, almost everyone on red was suddenly in Tomcats... 😄

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First to IronMike & HB thanks for the transparency with this thread, it's appreciated.

Few questions though:

1. Did the changes to the phoenix performance include changes to the parameters for launch cues in TWS mode? I ask because since the changes I cannot get hits using the flashing TWS track cues as a guide to launch. The phoenixes run out of energy well before reaching the target and/or fail to guide in the terminal phase.

2. I've seen several phoenix just loft for outer space (missile is 45 deg nose up at over 100,000ft) when shooting from high and fast (30,000ft and 0.9M in the cat) with good TWS tracks on targets at about 60nm, is this expected behaviour? This behaviour results in the missile achieving range of about 30nm.

I recorded video of these behaviours while testing against AI H6J bombers that I can post on YouTube if it helps. Unfortunately I'm not running Tacview at the moment.

Best regards, BLUEmako

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21 minutes ago, BLUEmako said:

First to IronMike & HB thanks for the transparency with this thread, it's appreciated.

Few questions though:

1. Did the changes to the phoenix performance include changes to the parameters for launch cues in TWS mode? I ask because since the changes I cannot get hits using the flashing TWS track cues as a guide to launch. The phoenixes run out of energy well before reaching the target and/or fail to guide in the terminal phase.

2. I've seen several phoenix just loft for outer space (missile is 45 deg nose up at over 100,000ft) when shooting from high and fast (30,000ft and 0.9M in the cat) with good TWS tracks on targets at about 60nm, is this expected behaviour? This behaviour results in the missile achieving range of about 30nm.

I recorded video of these behaviours while testing against AI H6J bombers that I can post on YouTube if it helps. Unfortunately I'm not running Tacview at the moment.

Best regards, BLUEmako

Sounds like you either lost lock or you need to watch your pitch, you don't really need to pitch up if medium-high altitude, 10 deg pitch will get it well up to 70,000ft and will make a nice kill on a weak defence. If the H6 are flying towards you at medium altitude then this should be some easy kills.

It really needs a track or tacview as anything could be happening for eg. If you're sorting on multiple targets at different altitudes some may slip out of your scan cone.

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2 hours ago, BLUEmako said:

First to IronMike & HB thanks for the transparency with this thread, it's appreciated.

Few questions though:

1. Did the changes to the phoenix performance include changes to the parameters for launch cues in TWS mode? I ask because since the changes I cannot get hits using the flashing TWS track cues as a guide to launch. The phoenixes run out of energy well before reaching the target and/or fail to guide in the terminal phase.

2. I've seen several phoenix just loft for outer space (missile is 45 deg nose up at over 100,000ft) when shooting from high and fast (30,000ft and 0.9M in the cat) with good TWS tracks on targets at about 60nm, is this expected behaviour? This behaviour results in the missile achieving range of about 30nm.

I recorded video of these behaviours while testing against AI H6J bombers that I can post on YouTube if it helps. Unfortunately I'm not running Tacview at the moment.

Best regards, BLUEmako

No changes to launch or track cues as much as i can tell. My money is on loss of track. It's more likely to occur on a high to low geometry, especially over land and rough terrain. Try resetting the radar as Jester won't do it on his own, so the contact can still show on radar as a diamond, but no track will be assigned to it. Resetting the radar (say with a short PLM press) will reset Jester logic as well, causing him to reacquire, re-IFF and re-designate. 

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Noticed some odd missile guidence characteristics in a test just after the update. First shot was in TWS, and immediately lost the track file. Followed up with a STT shot (2 left the rail for some reason). The STT shots both guided on the target, but the TWS shot very clearly went "active" and attempted to guide on the target even though it never should have recieved a "go-active" signal as I understand it. 

 

Also noticed the 54s in long range STT shots seemed to fly based off the initial predicted intercept for the most part until they're closer to the terminal phase (about 25nm in this example IIRC), like it got a mid-course uldate . That part I don't think is a bug but simply something I hadn't noticed before. 

 

And finally, these shots were simply ment to be exploratory test shots, don't be expecting decent missile performance on 100nm shots with targets flanking. Try about 1/3 that range for fighters

Tacview-20220205-143310-DCS.zip.acmi

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Sorry dont know where my text went with the above images.

 

This was the the 28nm shot with the mk60 where the missile lost a lot a speed as the F16 dived and turned 90°, from M2.0 to M0.7 in 8 secs.

 

I am not complaining, if this is realistic then fair enough. I had a few multiplayer kills tonight from 40nm and 30k, maybe not as many as a I would have  a week or two ago, but I can live with adapting my style.

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10 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

Only against the AI super chaff (which somehow is much more effective than player chaff in DCS).

I have yet to see an Aim-120 or Aim-54 go for chaff in probably the last year of multiplayer flying, but I recently saw an Aim-120 go for chaff against AI. I could not believe my eyes!

I think some of the consensus is that the AI knows the Chaff is just a Die Roll, so they unload WAY more Chaff shots than a player would. Every shot is another pass/fail roll of the dice. 

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11 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

If you have a track replay showing this please make a new thread so we can take a look. 

thanks

This is one of an AIM-54A Mk60, where 3 out of 4 eat chaff. If i get the time, i'll try to produce an AMRAAM replay. No track though, didn't save it, as at the time i had no idea the missiles failed due to CM. 

Tacview-20220206-230334-DCS-BVR F-14A duels VS F-15C.zip.acmi

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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1 minute ago, captain_dalan said:

This is one of an AIM-54A Mk60, where 3 out of 4 eat chaff. If i get the time, i'll try to produce an AMRAAM replay. No track though, didn't save it, as at the time i had no idea the missiles failed due to CM. 

Tacview-20220206-230334-DCS-BVR F-14A duels VS F-15C.zip.acmi 295.52 kB · 0 downloads

Tacviews are great, but what we need are short as possible DCS track replays to use on our debug build. Thanks

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