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AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion


IronMike

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My findings so far are that the AIM-120C is a longer ranged missile vs opposing fighters than the AIM-54C in DCS. Wether that's accurate to real life or not, I can't say, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't surprise me.

That said, I will always prefer true to life performance over "expectations". So will just have to make due with what we got and trust HB got it right.

 

PS: Out of curiousity, have any of you guys managed to get the AIM-54C to hit the in litterature often qouted Mach 5+ yet?


Edited by Hummingbird
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Tacview-20220217-154529-DCS.zip.acmiTacview-20220217-154117-DCS.zip.acmiTacview-20220217-153436-DCS.zip.acmiTacview-20220217-152934-DCS.zip.acmi

Hey Clunk

Facing up against 3 Flankers is not as easy a fight as you seem to expect it to be. 

In your Tacview the missile economy is dreadful, 6 shots at the same time all with the same profile, if one is going to be defeated then why not 6.

You do great trying to get a bit of separation to try and beat the notch but that isn't the issue here, the issue as you point out is that they are simply outrunning your missiles. You're not getting in a good enough kill positions and not forcing the bandits to play your game, you rather get deep in the soup and let them bunch together, situational awareness is going down hill fast as both of you press in together.

Grinding it out helps one of you always be in control of the fight and give valuable support while positioning for kill shots, the AI ain't great at this, I tried so hard to keep my AI buddy alive but it is so tricky managing his commands while fighting.

I understand the missiles are draggy the lower they get but this is one of the hurdles you need to adjust to.

 

Simply put just try and limit the spam and keep at a good distance from a multi merge.


Edited by Frostie
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42 minutes ago, Clunk1001 said:

Tacview-20220217-142609-DCS.zip.acmi 334.21 kB · 4 downloads

2 F14s, Angels 30, Mach1.1, head on to 3 flankers, launch at around 25-30 miles.  

Played this same scenario a dozen or so time.  Consistently 5 out of 6 phoenix miss  (in around 11 out of 12 play throughs).  

When merging, STT, again Phoenix miss.  End up finishing with sidewinders and guns.

Jester summed it up nicely in that engagement  "The <profanity> missile missed".  🙂 

Any advice as to what I'm doing wrong with the Phoenix would be appreciated. 

What I found interesting is that the AI level made absolutely no difference. 5 out of 6 Phoenix miss pretty much every time regardless of AI skill setting (SU33, SU27, MIG29 all pretty much the same too).

From this track (2:05), the phoenix just run out of speed, the two SU33s don't actually "evade" the missiles - they seem to outrum them:

The Phoenix on the left is at M1.30, the Su-33 is at M0.82....2 seconds later and Phoenix is at M0.59 and the SU33 at M1.24

image.png

image.png

 

 

image.png

 

My first question would be here, why do you use the AIM-54A-mk47 in such a scenario? It is the weakest one with the shortest motor burn time. If you want to use that, say out of historic settings, then you need to press in way more for the shot, or take longer higher up shots, but the latter will be subject to hit and miss much more. You do not have to worry about their semi actives, once your missiles go pitbull, they will drop the lock. So push more.

8 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

My findings so far are that the AIM-120C is a longer ranged missile vs opposing fighters than the AIM-54C in DCS. Wether that's accurate to real life or not, I can't say, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't surprise me.

That said, I will always prefer true to life performance over "expectations". So will just have to make due with what we got and trust HB got it right.

 

PS: Out of curiousity, have any of you guys managed to get the AIM-54C to hit the in litterature often qouted Mach 5+ yet?

 

I would not know of aim120s hitting at 50, 60 or 95nm. I do know of aim54s that do that quite often though. Most certainly the aim120 is not a longer ranged missile. But it will have a longer reach at medium range, low to mid altitude engagements, naturally so.

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4 minutes ago, IronMike said:

My first question would be here, why do you use the AIM-54A-mk47 in such a scenario? It is the weakest one with the shortest motor burn time. If you want to use that, say out of historic settings, then you need to press in way more for the shot, or take longer higher up shots, but the latter will be subject to hit and miss much more. You do not have to worry about their semi actives, once your missiles go pitbull, they will drop the lock. So push more.

I would not know of aim120s hitting at 50, 60 or 95nm. I do know of aim54s that do that quite often though. Most certainly the aim120 is not a longer ranged missile. But it will have a longer reach at medium range, low to mid altitude engagements, naturally so.

I knew you were going to ask about the A. 🙂 

Which is why I have exactly the same outcome with the C.

Tacview-20220217-161450-DCS.zip.acmi

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10 minutes ago, Frostie said:

Tacview-20220217-154529-DCS.zip.acmi 468.03 kB · 2 downloads Tacview-20220217-154117-DCS.zip.acmi 600.77 kB · 1 download Tacview-20220217-153436-DCS.zip.acmi 434.45 kB · 1 download Tacview-20220217-152934-DCS.zip.acmi 615.61 kB · 2 downloads

Hey Clunk

Facing up against 3 Flankers is not as easy a fight as you seem to expect it to be. 

In your Tacview the missile economy is dreadful, 6 shots at the same time all with the same profile, if one is going to be defeated then why not 6.

You do great trying to get a bit of separation to try and beat the notch but that isn't the issue here, the issue as you point out is that they are simply outrunning your missiles. You're not getting in a good enough kill positions and not forcing the bandits to play your game, you rather get deep in the soup and let them bunch together, situational awareness is going down hill fast as both of you press in together.

Grinding it out helps one of you always be in control of the fight and give valuable support while positioning for kill shots, the AI ain't great at this, I tried so hard to keep my AI buddy alive but it is so tricky managing his commands while fighting.

I understand the missiles are draggy the lower they get but this is one of the hurdles you need to adjust to.

 

Simply put just try and limit the spam and keep at a good distance from a multi merge.

 

You fired 12 Phoenix in that last one.   So 12 Phoenix for 3 aggressors?   And you still had to use guns in the end?  So that's less than 1 in 4 hits per missile.   

And that's the point I'm trying to make.  The kill rate of 1 in 4 doesn't seem at all right to me.  I don't take a loadout of 4 Phoenix with the sole intention of expending them all on a single enemy aircraft.

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27 minutes ago, Clunk1001 said:

You fired 12 Phoenix in that last one.   So 12 Phoenix for 3 aggressors?   And you still had to use guns in the end?  So that's less than 1 in 4 hits per missile.   

And that's the point I'm trying to make.  The kill rate of 1 in 4 doesn't seem at all right to me.  I don't take a loadout of 4 Phoenix with the sole intention of expending them all on a single enemy aircraft.

 

Your parameters of firing are clearly not good enough, This seems user error and de railing the thread because you cant score kills against A.I, Change your approach to the fight. There called MISSiles for a reason. Use guns, Aim9s and aim-7s.

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@IronMike Always appreciate your willingness to engage with the community. Having looked at the tweaks to the AIM-54 models it definitely appears from a FM perspective that the AIM-54 is more or less matching the CFD study and matches the known test shots from 1972. 

The question I have is with guidance. I am seeing a lot scenarios/engagements where the missile appears to have enough energy to connect but does weird guidance. In this case it seems to take more lead that required and will often pass in front and above of the target. Of course, I have no idea if this is realistic or expected behavior but I was wondering if you have any thoughts. Here is a sequence of 9 shots taken at roughly 35K/0.95 MACH at 30 NM against an AI SU-30. 2/9 HIT and 7  passed ahead and over the target. In the past CHAFF interaction was seen as the missile would latch onto the chaff and pass behind the target. Any thoughts on what we are seeing? The target had no ECM in this scenario.

Shot 2/9 AIM-54A Mk60 passes ahead and above target:

image.png

Shot 3/9 AIM-54A Mk60 passes ahead and above the target:

image.png

Shot 4/9 AIM-54A Mk60 passes ahead and above the target:

image.png

Shot 5/9:

image.png 

Shot 6/9:

image.png

Shot 7/9:

image.png

Shot 9/9: image.png

Tacview-20220216-144458-DCS-AIM54C Test .zip.acmi

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56 minutes ago, Clunk1001 said:

And that's the point I'm trying to make.  The kill rate of 1 in 4 doesn't seem at all right to me.  

Compared to the Flankers 1 in 7 kill ratio i'd say good return on the worst sortie.

I wasted one on a false contact and another i offloaded at the merge to reduce weight.

 


Edited by Frostie

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59 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

 

Your parameters of firing are clearly not good enough, This seems user error and de railing the thread because you cant score kills against A.I, Change your approach to the fight. There called MISSiles for a reason. Use guns, Aim9s and aim-7s.

That wasnt my TACVIEW.  I made the point that the phoenix had a hit ratio less than 1 in 4.   Frostie kindly posted his track which also showed a hit rate of less than 1 in 4, and even 12  Phoenix missiles were not enough to deal with 3 bandits.  My point remains, the ratio of less than 1 in 4 hits seems low.  Why would a typical real life loadout on the F14 include only 2 phoenix, when it takes at least 4 to down an enemy (at least in the head-to-head scenario I outlined)?

I'm not trying to derail the thread, I'm saying I think there's something wrong if it consistently takes more than 4 missiles to down all levels of AI (including rookie) in the above scenario.  Whether it's ballistics, guidance, or just AI.  Somethings not right.  So I feel this is the right thread for that.

I'm happy diving in with sidewinders and guns....and if the Phoenix is going to miss 86% of the time then my change in approach would probably be to load up with Sparrows and Sidewinders instead of the Phoenix.

Everyone seems to be saying it's 'tactics' , or 'geometry', or the wrong missile.  I am always open to suggestion/help/criticism.  But can anyone help and offer a solution to the above scenario that doesn't involve using 12 phoenix against 3 Flankers?  Or are we saying that it is a realistic expectation to require 4+ Phoenix missiles per rookie flanker (in which case I'll shut up and assume the missile is just fine 🙂 )?


Edited by Clunk1001
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36 minutes ago, Strider21 said:

@IronMike Always appreciate your willingness to engage with the community. Having looked at the tweaks to the AIM-54 models it definitely appears from a FM perspective that the AIM-54 is more or less matching the CFD study and matches the known test shots from 1972. 

The question I have is with guidance. I am seeing a lot scenarios/engagements where the missile appears to have enough energy to connect but does weird guidance. In this case it seems to take more lead that required and will often pass in front and above of the target. Of course, I have no idea if this is realistic or expected behavior but I was wondering if you have any thoughts. Here is a sequence of 9 shots taken at roughly 35K/0.95 MACH at 30 NM against an AI SU-30. 2/9 HIT and 7  passed ahead and over the target. In the past CHAFF interaction was seen as the missile would latch onto the chaff and pass behind the target. Any thoughts on what we are seeing? The target had no ECM in this scenario.

Shot 2/9 AIM-54A Mk60 passes ahead and above target:

image.png

Shot 3/9 AIM-54A Mk60 passes ahead and above the target:

image.png

Shot 4/9 AIM-54A Mk60 passes ahead and above the target:

image.png

Shot 5/9:

image.png

Shot 6/9:

image.png

Shot 7/9:

image.png

Shot 9/9: image.png

Tacview-20220216-144458-DCS-AIM54C Test .zip.acmi 1.03 MB · 1 download

What it looks like is that the missile is turning too far and putting the target outside its basket.  Its like its not adjusting proportionally from Lead to Pure, and trying to pull massive lead when its only a few thousand feet away.  None of these are going for chaff or being  zero doppler notched, the target is quite high and is not in clutter, and the missile has way more than enough energy.... there is no reason these should not be hitting. 

To be fair - the 120 and other missiles do this (which is a bad sign cause the 120 is on the new API if I recall). This is just ED's (frankly poor) overall missile guidance. I suspect.  My understanding is that HB or any 3rd party has no ability to control this, they can only ask ED to adjust things.... which is a whole other discussion.  


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44 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

What it looks like is that the missile is turning too far and putting the target outside its basket.  Its like its not adjusting proportionally from Lead to Pure, and trying to pull massive lead when its only a few thousand feet away.  None of these are going for chaff or being  zero doppler notched, the target is quite high and is not in clutter, and the missile has way more than enough energy.... there is no reason these should not be hitting. 

To be fair - the 120 and other missiles do this (which is a bad sign cause the 120 is on the new API if I recall). This is just ED's (frankly poor) overall missile guidance. I suspect.  My understanding is that HB or any 3rd party has no ability to control this, they can only ask ED to adjust things.... which is a whole other discussion.  

 

Imo the biggest issue for the 54 in terms of guidance (outside of the notching) is that when it is in its loft stage, it doesn’t lead the target but merely points at the target until it actually goes active. That will cause the missile to either lose all its speed or get easily defeated since it wasn’t in a good position to kill the target.

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15 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

Imo the biggest issue for the 54 in terms of guidance (outside of the notching) is that when it is in its loft stage, it doesn’t lead the target but merely points at the target until it actually goes active. That will cause the missile to either lose all its speed or get easily defeated since it wasn’t in a good position to kill the target.

I've seen a massive improvement on that point, but I've also seen people's tracks with the missile over lofting. Dunno. Different topic.

 

The thing that seems most a problem to me is the last few seconds of terminal guidance, which is vastly improved... But if you watch that guys tacview there seems to be no good indicator as to why those missiles did not connect. 

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3 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

Tacview-20220217-142609-DCS.zip.acmi 334.21 kB · 7 downloads

2 F14s, Angels 30, Mach1.1, head on to 3 flankers, launch at around 25-30 miles.  

Played this same scenario a dozen or so time.  Consistently 5 out of 6 phoenix miss  (in around 11 out of 12 play throughs).  

When merging, STT, again Phoenix miss.  End up finishing with sidewinders and guns.

Jester summed it up nicely in that engagement  "The <profanity> missile missed".  🙂 

Any advice as to what I'm doing wrong with the Phoenix would be appreciated. 

What I found interesting is that the AI level made absolutely no difference. 5 out of 6 Phoenix miss pretty much every time regardless of AI skill setting (SU33, SU27, MIG29 all pretty much the same too).

From this track (2:05), the phoenix just run out of speed, the two SU33s don't actually "evade" the missiles - they seem to outrum them:

The Phoenix on the left is at M1.30, the Su-33 is at M0.82....2 seconds later and Phoenix is at M0.59 and the SU33 at M1.24

image.png

image.png

 

 

image.png

 

im a little confused. you say they didnt evade but 1 is completely cold and the other is close to a notch, have i missed something?

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4 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

But can anyone help and offer a solution to the above scenario that doesn't involve using 12 phoenix against 3 Flankers?

Sure. You're shooting too late and too low. If you want to throw first shots out at 30 miles, I'd suggest switching to Sparrows or something that fires AMRAAMs. 

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15 minutes ago, near_blind said:

Sure. You're shooting too late and too low. If you want to throw first shots out at 30 miles, I'd suggest switching to Sparrows or something that fires AMRAAMs. 

So if I run the same scenario, and release at say 40nm at angels 40 I’ll get I better hit rate with the Phoenix?  I will give that a go!

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4 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

That wasnt my TACVIEW.  I made the point that the phoenix had a hit ratio less than 1 in 4.   Frostie kindly posted his track which also showed a hit rate of less than 1 in 4, and even 12  Phoenix missiles were not enough to deal with 3 bandits.  My point remains, the ratio of less than 1 in 4 hits seems low.  Why would a typical real life loadout on the F14 include only 2 phoenix, when it takes at least 4 to down an enemy (at least in the head-to-head scenario I outlined)?

 

Cherry picking your favourite track is a great way to try and mislead and confuse matters. There were 4 tracks why do you ignore the others?

One track which was by far the worst application gave a 1 in 4 return, the others gave 1 in 3, 1 in 2 and greater than 1 in 2. 

I posted 4 back to back tracks which on the time stamps runs a total of just over 15 mins. I'm not an amazing Tomcat driver by any standard but managed to win all 4 engagements which you claimed to be impossible. Several of these shots I wasted and some were without a valid or false lock, I still have plenty to learn and don't kid myself that I should be killing all bandits with a missile each.

 

track 154529, first 3s shots by AI - 1 hit (1 in 3), followed by 4 shots - 2 hit, 1 missed, 1 was on an already splashed bandit (3 in 4) [total 4 in 7]  greater than 1 in 2

track 152934 , first 3 shots by AI miss (0 in 3), followed by 5 shots - 1 hits, 1 was on a splashed bandit, 3 miss (2 in 5), 2 fired - 1 hit, 1 miss (1 in 2), 2 fired at stupid parameters, both miss (0 in 2) [total 3 in 12] 1 in 4

track 153436, first 3 shots by AI - 2 hit, 1 miss (2 in 3), the rest were on dead targets and got a bit messy. [total  2 in 3] 2 in 3

track 154117, first shots by AI miss (0 in 3), followed by 5 shots - 2 hit, 1 is on already splashed bandit and 1 hits the missile it was locked on, 1 missed (4 in 5) [total 4 in 8] 1 in 2

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5 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

I knew you were going to ask about the A. 🙂 

Which is why I have exactly the same outcome with the C.

Tacview-20220217-161450-DCS.zip.acmi 361.2 kB · 4 downloads

Which has the same motor than the A, with a slightly better guidance and will have more advantages regarding that in the future, but still... 🙂 If you go 1 vs 4, and the 4 are not bombers, then the mk60 is your weapon of choice 10/10 if you care about range.

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12 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Which has the same motor than the A

This currently is not the case since the motor values for AIM-54C-Mk47 are weaker than the 54A-Mk47 counterpart. Iirc, the 54C-Mk47 has worse performance than the numbers stated within the whitepaper while the 54A-Mk47 has numbers that exceed that of the whitepaper.

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1 hour ago, Frostie said:

Cherry picking your favourite track is a great way to try and mislead and confuse matters. There were 4 tracks why do you ignore the others?

One track which was by far the worst application gave a 1 in 4 return, the others gave 1 in 3, 1 in 2 and greater than 1 in 2. 

I posted 4 back to back tracks which on the time stamps runs a total of just over 15 mins. I'm not an amazing Tomcat driver by any standard but managed to win all 4 engagements which you claimed to be impossible. Several of these shots I wasted and some were without a valid or false lock, I still have plenty to learn and don't kid myself that I should be killing all bandits with a missile each.

 

track 154529, first 3s shots by AI - 1 hit (1 in 3), followed by 4 shots - 2 hit, 1 missed, 1 was on an already splashed bandit (3 in 4) [total 4 in 7]  greater than 1 in 2

track 152934 , first 3 shots by AI miss (0 in 3), followed by 5 shots - 1 hits, 1 was on a splashed bandit, 3 miss (2 in 5), 2 fired - 1 hit, 1 miss (1 in 2), 2 fired at stupid parameters, both miss (0 in 2) [total 3 in 12] 1 in 4

track 153436, first 3 shots by AI - 2 hit, 1 miss (2 in 3), the rest were on dead targets and got a bit messy. [total  2 in 3] 2 in 3

track 154117, first shots by AI miss (0 in 3), followed by 5 shots - 2 hit, 1 is on already splashed bandit and 1 hits the missile it was locked on, 1 missed (4 in 5) [total 4 in 8] 1 in 2

At no point did I ever claim the engagement was impossible!  where did you read that in any of my posts?!  

My point was, and has been all along, and still is, that 12 Phoenix to kill 3 bandits seems excessive, when a standard loadout in real life often consisted of 2 Phoenix.  It seems nobody agrees with me though, I guess people are happy to load up their tomcats with 6 phoenix - a configuration seldom (never?) used - and yet talk and talk on here about about 'realism'?

 

1 hour ago, near_blind said:

Sure. You're shooting too late and too low. If you want to throw first shots out at 30 miles, I'd suggest switching to Sparrows or something that fires AMRAAMs. 

Thanks near_blind, that does indeed change the scenario significantly.


Edited by Clunk1001
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3 Angry Ace level AI's got their hands on 3 Flankers, 3 different scenarios, lower, co-alt and higher then a pair of Tomcats. The Flankers never really had a chance. And yes, these are Mk60's but the missiles intercept at over mach 2, so the Mk47's are going to somewhat worse, but not by that much. These were fired inside or about 30 miles to try and match the above mentioned shots at about mach 1.1, but they could be fired at greater distances and still make the shots. 

EDIT: BTW, my hit ratio is nearly 100%, that is 3 out of 3 hits. Out of 12 runs, 4 for each scenario, only once did a missile miss, and that was when the flanker got cold and try to run away. Naturally that didn't end well for him. You don't run away from F-14's, certainly not that at these altitudes. 

Tacview-20220217-235106-DCS-2 on 3 test co-alt.zip.acmi Tacview-20220217-235437-DCS-2 on 3 test high-to-low.zip.acmi Tacview-20220218-000223-DCS-2 on 3 test low-to-high.zip.acmi


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10 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

From this track (2:05), the phoenix just run out of speed, the two SU33s don't actually "evade" the missiles - they seem to outrum them:

The Phoenix on the left is at M1.30, the Su-33 is at M0.82....2 seconds later and Phoenix is at M0.59 and the SU33 at M1.24

image.png

image.png


Look at the altitude loss. It wasn't two seconds- it was over fifteen.  Aerial 2-2 descends 15,000' between those timestamps; 2-3 descends 18,000'.  They've both got the blower on, using God's G to add even more knots, while the missiles are having to turn into final engagement parameters, coasting, and descending into heavier drag air. 

What accelerates faster- an unloaded airplane in a dive producing roughly 56,000 lbs of thrust in reheat, or a missile in a dive with no more thrust?


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7 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

At no point did I ever claim the engagement was impossible!  where did you read that in any of my posts?!  

My point was, and has been all along, and still is, that 12 Phoenix to kill 3 bandits seems excessive, when a standard loadout in real life often consisted of 2 Phoenix.  It seems nobody agrees with me though, I guess people are happy to load up their tomcats with 6 phoenix - a configuration seldom (never?) used - and yet talk and talk on here about about 'realism'?

 

All well and good but I was trying to replicate your profile that you claimed R27 was superior, I had very little detail to work with such as altitude of bandits and your loadout so figured carrying 6 gave me the best results on seeing the phoenix at different regimes. I was very loose with missile shots.

 

I don't know how more I can try and help you understand what you need to do. Whenever something is highlighted you move the goal posts.

I put a perfectly fine tacview up earlier of 4 Su33 vs 1 F14 with 4*54,2*7M,2*9M. 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Frostie
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"[51☭] FROSTIE" #55

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Three veteran Su-33s loaded for bear and maneuvering/evasion capable (Fighter Sweep/Evasion on), one F-14A with four AIM-54 Mk60s.  Three for three. 

All three shots taken at or above Mach 1 and 30,000', each roughly a minute apart from ranges of 72, 57, and 40 miles.  Basic 30 degree crank turns to control closure, and their one return R-27ER shot was trashed by my third Phoenix catching the shooter by the difference in effective missile range.

It's how it's being used.  We've got folks shooting all out of parameters, from slow at SL to crazy round dumps at middle altitudes and below the Mach, and we've got people putting consistent steel on target by using even the most basic applicable technique. How does this conversation proceed when people don't even recognize the clues for why they're having trouble with the weapon and why it's not working for them is in the data they're presenting as evidence?  

Tacview-20220218-001928-DCS.zip.acmi

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30 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

Three veteran Su-33s loaded for bear and maneuvering/evasion capable (Fighter Sweep/Evasion on), one F-14A with four AIM-54 Mk60s.  Three for three. 

All three shots taken at or above Mach 1 and 30,000', each roughly a minute apart from ranges of 72, 57, and 40 miles.  Basic 30 degree crank turns to control closure, and their one return R-27ER shot was trashed by my third Phoenix catching the shooter by the difference in effective missile range.

It's how it's being used.  We've got folks shooting all out of parameters, from slow at SL to crazy round dumps at middle altitudes and below the Mach, and we've got people putting consistent steel on target by using even the most basic applicable technique. How does this conversation proceed when people don't even recognize the clues for why they're having trouble with the weapon and why it's not working for them is in the data they're presenting as evidence?  

Tacview-20220218-001928-DCS.zip.acmi 396.61 kB · 1 download

Care to explain what exactly I am doing wrong here?

2/9 Firing at 30 NNM 35000' MACH 0.98. All 7 misses AMI-54 had plenty of energy and pull G but passed in front and above of the target. 

Tacview-20220216-144458-DCS-AIM54C Test .zip.acmi

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