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AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion


IronMike

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Here another 10 shots. First 5 at 40 NM 35K 0.98, crank at launch and skate at pitbull. The missiles went 1/5. 

This is what the four missies look like. All the same missile passes in front and above. 

Missile at Pitbull: 

image.png

Missile taking lead in response to the BANDIT: 

image.png

At this point it looks like the lead it is taking puts the target outside of the missile seeker FOV.

Point at which the missile goes straight the target definitely appears outside of the missile seek FOV.

image.png

I then did 5 shots at 25 NM at 35k MACH 0.98 and they went 5/5 hits. 

This basically what all the hits from 25 NM look like, missile at pitbull:

image.png

End game of a hit. The Target looks to be in a near perfect NOTCH but the missile takes good lead and hits: 

image.png

image.png

Comparing the 25 NM hits to the 40 NM misses it looks like in the 25 NM shots the bandit is in better NOTCH but the hit ratio is drastically better. @IronMike I know I am beating a dead horse but to me the consistent misses where the missiles pass ahead look more like guidance bug than a successful AI notch. 

TACVIEW attached for critique. 

 

Tacview-20220218-071303-DCS-AIM54C Test .zip.acmi


Edited by Strider21
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4 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

Good question.  As mentioned earlier I would expect to a degradation of performance with decreasing density altitude (which we have);  the results with the C seems okay at 40,000 (nobody really knows).  The reason I’m highlighting 30,000 is that this is where the C seems to break.  It seems to go from 85% kill ratio at 40,000 down to around 10% at 30,000 (in my head on test).  And it’s that inconsistency which I’m highlighting.
 

I’ve no idea how it should actually perform,  but I’m pretty sure that the density altitude variation between these two heights would not account for such a dramatic shift in usability.

 

 

60nm 30kft 54C.acmi

The thing you are not noticing in your 40K ft shots is that the AI is coming up to 40k ft to meet you this improves the performance of the missile and as an added bonus there is less maneuverability for the bandits higher up. So it is not only your launch altitude increasing performance but other factors you're not noticing playing a part.

Here is 60nm 30k ft AIM-54C kills against 30k ft bandits.

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5 minutes ago, Strider21 said:

Here another 10 shots. First 5 at 40 NM 35K 0.98, crank at launch and skate at pitbull. The missiles went 1/5. 

This is what the four missies look like. All the same missile passes in front and above. 

Missile at Pitbull: 

image.png

Missile taking lead in response to the BANDIT: 

image.png

At this point it looks like the lead it is taking puts the target outside of the missile seeker FOV.

Point at which the missile goes straight the target definitely appears outside of the missile seek FOV.

image.png

I then did 5 shots at 25 NM at 35k MACH 0.98 and they went 5/5 hits. 

This basically what all the hits from 25 NM look like, missile at pitbull:

image.png

End game of a hit. The Target looks to be in a near perfect NOTCH but the missile takes good lead and hits: 

image.png

image.png

Comparing the 25 NM hits to the 40 NM misses it looks like in the 25 NM shots the bandit is in better NOTCH but the hit ratio is drastically better. @IronMike I know I am beating a dead horse but to me the consistent misses where the missiles pass ahead look more like guidance bug than a successful AI notch. 

TACVIEW attached for critique. 

 

Tacview-20220218-071303-DCS-AIM54C Test .zip.acmi 1.31 MB · 0 downloads

 

If it would be a guidance issue, it would be the same across the board. The issue is really the "burned-in" notch of the AI here. Not saying there are no guidance issues, but from our tests and from my personal experience, you will see them more online, and less to not at all offline. Guidance unfortunately is also not in our hands.

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9 minutes ago, IronMike said:

If it would be a guidance issue, it would be the same across the board. The issue is really the "burned-in" notch of the AI here. Not saying there are no guidance issues, but from our tests and from my personal experience, you will see them more online, and less to not at all offline. Guidance unfortunately is also not in our hands.

near perfect AI notches that lead to hits: 

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png

 

image.png

In all the misses the notch is not perfectly 90 deg but they miss rate is still drastically increased. I feel this isn't convincing you so with that I will lay it to rest. 


Edited by Strider21
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15 minutes ago, Frostie said:

60nm 30kft 54C.acmi 352.66 kB · 1 download

The thing you are not noticing in your 40K ft shots is that the AI is coming up to 40k ft to meet you this improves the performance of the missile and as an added bonus there is less maneuverability for the bandits higher up. So it is not only your launch altitude increasing performance but other factors you're not noticing playing a part.

Here is 60nm 30k ft AIM-54C kills against 30k ft bandits.

Thanks.  But that's with a LOFT.  That's not what I'm testing.  My point was to test against the same launch criteria at different altitudes to highlight the difference  (a difference is to be expected, my point is that there is too much of a difference to be just air Density).

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Here's a short tacview clip of a test I did last night - I've been trying to keep up with all the changes/developments of the missile, but real life has bogged me down. Did I do something incorrect, here? I know the missile has gotten a lot more strict about needing to be in more ideal launch parameters to effect a splash. Any insight you could share would be appreciated, thankyou 😄 
 

 

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6 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

So, going back to my simple tests, comparing the two variants....  

 

 

Generally speaking, for the launch parameters that you are exploring (angels 30, mach 1.1), here is some observations that you may find useful:
1. The Mk47 motor powered 54's will need to be launched about 5-6 nautical miles closer to the bandit then their Mk60 brethren to achieve similar terminal performance;
2. Alternatively, you could also launch them from about 5000ft higher (angels 35, mach 1.1) for similar results.
3. Never ignore Flanker spikes. The ER will get you if you are more then happy to oblige it's intercept geometry.
4. ET's will get you as well, especially if you burn all the way and in a straight line. So watch out for launch plumes and kick several flares every now and then while coming out of burner, just to be on the safe side. Always deploy flares when merging!

Now, some DCS meta:
1. Bandit type - last night i modified the mission i used to make the tacview recordings i attached yesterday, and i changed the bandits from Su-27's to Su-33's. Same loadout, 4xR-73's 2xET, 2xR, 2xER, same AI skill level of ace. Lo and behold, the bandits defended much more aggressively then before. On few occasions, they would even fly themselves into the ground, just to notch the missile. On a couple of occasions they even notched the Mk60. So it seems, what you fight will matter.
2. Wingmen AI - Ordering the wingmen to engage sub-30 miles, often results in him engaging with Sparrows directly, ignoring the Phoenixes. Thus going for the closer range shots with Mk47's may be counterproductive as it will rob you of your support. In stead, go for the extra 5000ft. This way you can still engage from around 30 miles and have wingmen support.
3. F-14A specific - right now, the A model is still lacking power (or has too much drag) in the transonic region with the configuration tested (external tanks present), so accelerating to mach 1.1 or mach 1.2 will take some time. As many instant missions start inside 50 miles, you may not have enough time to both climb to 35000 and accelerate to mach 1.1. Meta-solution, drop the tanks (like i do here, as i am too lazy to modify the mission to start further back), something i would never do on a mission sever, or SP campaign-mission, or start further back.

Here's some tracks to provide context for the above block of text. Hope it helps.  

Tacview-20220218-012754-DCS-2 on 3 test co-alt Sea Flanker.zip.acmi Tacview-20220218-020128-DCS-2 on 3 test co-alt Sea Flanker Mk47.zip.acmi Tacview-20220218-024345-DCS-2 on 3 test co-alt Sea Flanker Mk47.zip.acmi Tacview-20220218-025111-DCS-2 on 3 test co-alt Sea Flanker Mk47C.zip.acmi

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37 minutes ago, Clunk1001 said:

Thanks.  But that's with a LOFT.  That's not what I'm testing.  My point was to test against the same launch criteria at different altitudes to highlight the difference  (a difference is to be expected, my point is that there is too much of a difference to be just air Density).

It's not the same launch criteria though is it, as I pointed out the AI climbs up to 40k ft when you're at 40k ft. So you are launching at an easier target.

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45 minutes ago, Thundercat710 said:

Here's a short tacview clip of a test I did last night - I've been trying to keep up with all the changes/developments of the missile, but real life has bogged me down. Did I do something incorrect, here? I know the missile has gotten a lot more strict about needing to be in more ideal launch parameters to effect a splash. Any insight you could share would be appreciated, thankyou 😄 
 

 

Ah it appears that you lofted your missiles at a pitch beyond 12 degrees. In my experience, the 54’s new guidance doesn’t like manually lofted missiles beyond 12 degrees since it will cause them to not leave the loft fast enough.

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18 minutes ago, Frostie said:

It's not the same launch criteria though is it, as I pointed out the AI climbs up to 40k ft when you're at 40k ft. So you are launching at an easier target.

Yes, you’re absolutely right, that bit is a valid point.  I hadn’t spotted it.


Edited by Clunk1001
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3 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

Ah it appears that you lofted your missiles at a pitch beyond 12 degrees. In my experience, the 54’s new guidance doesn’t like manually lofted missiles beyond 12 degrees since it will cause them to not leave the loft fast enough.

Ah, I did not know that, thankyou. Will try again with 10° on the nose. Anything else amiss with my attempts? Range, speed, altitude, relative altitude to bandits, etc?

Target size switch was set to Small, is that working as intended?

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Out of curiosity, in TWS-A does the Phoenix still receive any guidance updates if I support it all the way to the hit, or does it just do its own thing after pitbull regardless of what the radar does? If it's the former, I think I know why my missiles seem to be well behaved - I generally dive to a lower altitude than my target after I shoot a missile meant for a kill, so maybe the radar is guiding the missile through the notch?

Regarding the Su-27 vs Su-33 thing: that's peak DCS AI right there. It's insane that we don't seem to be remotely close to getting an AI overhaul because wow.


Edited by TLTeo
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29 minutes ago, Thundercat710 said:

Ah, I did not know that, thankyou. Will try again with 10° on the nose. Anything else amiss with my attempts? Range, speed, altitude, relative altitude to bandits, etc?

Target size switch was set to Small, is that working as intended?

I think the range and speed is pretty optimal. My one suggestion is to get to 40k. Target size small is working normally.

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1 hour ago, Thundercat710 said:

Here's a short tacview clip of a test I did last night - I've been trying to keep up with all the changes/developments of the missile, but real life has bogged me down. Did I do something incorrect, here? I know the missile has gotten a lot more strict about needing to be in more ideal launch parameters to effect a splash. Any insight you could share would be appreciated, thankyou 😄 
 

 

It looks to me that you break into a beam, before your missiles go active, so one luckily happens to guide (but too late + no need to add pitch which borked it even further), but the others basically miss because of it. Especially with 6nm on pitbull, you need to make sure to guide them all the way in. If you want to do stuff like that, it is better to set it to large, so it starts being pitbull at its maximum range.

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At this point I may add something guys: this thread has derailed somewhat at this point. The update focused on performance, and the performance adheres by numbers. We then still have guidance issues remaining, and stuff like netcode related non-guided missiles, etc. Which are largely identified.

Beyond that we turned the thread a bit into a help-thred to re-learn the missile again - which is fair enough. We want to support you in that as much as we can. But let us also be clear on that at this point. Someone re-learning how to use the missile properly does not equal the missile being wrong per se. And we are here to help, but the thread is mainly pointed at performance related issues, which by all means: there seem to be little of that, if any. It flies its profiles in majority, it accelerates as it should in majority, it decelerates as it should in majority, and it has the reach that is derived from its performance according to how it is being employed. This "how" is your part. We will help you in that, we want everyone to learn and to evolve. But let us mix it a bit less please: identifying a clear bug and/or issue with the missile is different from saying "I have an issue making it work properly now." 🙂

1 hour ago, Strider21 said:

near perfect AI notches that lead to hits: 

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png

 

image.png

In all the misses the notch is not perfectly 90 deg but they miss rate is still drastically increased. I feel this isn't convincing you so with that I will lay it to rest. 

 

We will investigate this, as to why it gets notched followed by a lead-to-miss. No need to convince me btw, the curiosity in this is very clear. Thank you!


Edited by IronMike
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19 minutes ago, IronMike said:

It looks to me that you break into a beam, before your missiles go active, so one luckily happens to guide (but too late + no need to add pitch which borked it even further), but the others basically miss because of it. Especially with 6nm on pitbull, you need to make sure to guide them all the way in. If you want to do stuff like that, it is better to set it to large, so it starts being pitbull at its maximum range.

Thanks! I don't recall if I cranked right or left after this volley, but i always turn to gimbal limit, come down to mil power, and go nose down at least 5°, and hold that aspect until they go pitbull.

 

Will keep up the re-learning, as you suggest!

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5 minutes ago, Thundercat710 said:

Thanks! I don't recall if I cranked right or left after this volley, but i always turn to gimbal limit, come down to mil power, and go nose down at least 5°, and hold that aspect until they go pitbull.

 

Will keep up the re-learning, as you suggest!

Good luck!

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1 hour ago, Thundercat710 said:

Ah, I did not know that, thankyou. Will try again with 10° on the nose. Anything else amiss with my attempts? Range, speed, altitude, relative altitude to bandits, etc...

For everyone- Center the steering T precisely, before launch.

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Hi 

just wanna share my experience and what i have seen from latest update !
this is tacview file of (IIAF vs CNF) SATAC match 2/12/2022 , also you will see in tacview we (IIAF) brought 4x F-14B with 4x phoenix for each in the match (round 2) and .... i would better say nothing and please watch the tacview file by your own !
you can see me with "ISAAC" name flown there with Human RIO "CIPHER"  ! 

my best regards

love & peace

ISAAC

 

CNF_vs_IIAF_Round_2.zip.acmi


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So after some months i again run DCS , i read phoenix got updatet flight model so i decide to play Blue Flag modern and my suprised was that i cant score even one aerial kill , some of the engagement was against noobish oponent which fly stragiht toward me i fire from 25 miles he still flight straight until phoenix got lock , then only one thing he do us one single barell roll and phoenix bleed all energy after that and miss , no notch no evade he still run staright forward . 
After few engagements with  1 kill on 14 missiles i decide to turn off it and dont play it until it is fixed as was before . 

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On 2/18/2022 at 1:24 PM, Clunk1001 said:

And at 30,000 with a C ?   How does that work out for you?

 

Nope, at 30,000 feet -47 does not have enough energy left when launched from 30 nm. The AI outmaneuvers it every time. 

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3 hours ago, Comstedt86 said:

You'll have to rollback a few patches and play singeplayer then because it will not return to previous state. 

How many times tell that about amraams and how many times they were reworked ?  I dont have problem with that , i will go play Blue Flag 80s years where tomcat is lethal plane with sparow and her powerfull engines and flight characteristic , but it is sad it cant be now used in modern maps . 

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23 minutes ago, 43rd WFV COBRA said:

How many times tell that about amraams and how many times they were reworked ?  I dont have problem with that , i will go play Blue Flag 80s years where tomcat is lethal plane with sparow and her powerfull engines and flight characteristic , but it is sad it cant be now used in modern maps . 

The '54 is not in its final implementation, the devs repeated it I don't know how many times. Nevertheless, it won't go back to how it was recently because it was over performing. In fact, the 54 we have now it's not too different from the one we got in 2019, besides at low altitude or high TA and the cheesy follow-up in PSTT when notched.
 

About modern scenarios, the F-14 is perfectly capable, but you need to work a little more to achieve a kill. Btw, I just realized that the AWG-9 is operative since 1962. That's 60 years of service, assuming the Iranians still have working AWG-9s. Impressive.

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