Jump to content

AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion


IronMike

Recommended Posts

I'm absolutely loving the 54 right now.  Out of the 20 or so I've fired on the hoggit servers, I've had one single miss.  The trick seems to be being high and fast, with some thought given to keeping your TID relatively uncluttered with contacts in the scan volume.  I'm not sure whether keeping the number of contacts on the TID low is important or not, but it seems to be easier for Jester to deal with.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Karon said:

The '54 is not in its final implementation, the devs repeated it I don't know how many times. Nevertheless, it won't go back to how it was recently because it was over performing. In fact, the 54 we have now it's not too different from the one we got in 2019, besides at low altitude or high TA and the cheesy follow-up in PSTT when notched.
 

About modern scenarios, the F-14 is perfectly capable, but you need to work a little more to achieve a kill. Btw, I just realized that the AWG-9 is operative since 1962. That's 60 years of service, assuming the Iranians still have working AWG-9s. Impressive.

I was there since the start too, and the mid-range shots against hot targets aren't quite what they used to be too. Way too often the missile defeats itself by trying to compensate for the closure rate of the bandit. So much in fact, that shots made from 60 miles away have better terminal performance then shots made from 25 miles. Note, this is a rough generalization, not verbatim numbers. Should it be so or was it that way IRL? No clue. But it wasn't that way when the plane and the missile first came out.  

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

I was there since the start too, and the mid-range shots against hot targets aren't quite what they used to be too. Way too often the missile defeats itself by trying to compensate for the closure rate of the bandit. So much in fact, that shots made from 60 miles away have better terminal performance then shots made from 25 miles. Note, this is a rough generalization, not verbatim numbers. Should it be so or was it that way IRL? No clue. But it wasn't that way when the plane and the missile first came out.  

I tested a couple of dozens of launches. I, personally, haven't seen anything odd. However, a friend sent me a video yesterday and the guidance indeed did not make any sense: the 54s behaves in a matter I have seen before only when testing long-range shots (when for long range I mean 150nm).
I guess we can only wait for a better implementation of the guidance. If, eventually, we AWG-9/Phoenix duo will acquire the features they are still missing, the wait will be well worth it.

full_tiny.pngfull_tiny.png
full_tiny.png

"Cogito, ergo RIO"
Virtual Backseaters Volume I: F-14 Radar Intercept Officer - Fifth Public Draft
Virtual Backseaters Volume II: F-4E Weapon Systems Officer - Internal Draft WIP

Phantom Phamiliarisation Video Series | F-4E/F-14 Kneeboard Pack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/19/2022 at 6:52 PM, 43rd WFV COBRA said:

So after some months i again run DCS , i read phoenix got updatet flight model so i decide to play Blue Flag modern and my suprised was that i cant score even one aerial kill , some of the engagement was against noobish oponent which fly stragiht toward me i fire from 25 miles he still flight straight until phoenix got lock , then only one thing he do us one single barell roll and phoenix bleed all energy after that and miss , no notch no evade he still run staright forward . 
After few engagements with  1 kill on 14 missiles i decide to turn off it and dont play it until it is fixed as was before . 

 

67BE3C5A-6C67-4BB4-8A80-4EF2788BA2E2.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Karon said:

I tested a couple of dozens of launches. I, personally, haven't seen anything odd. However, a friend sent me a video yesterday and the guidance indeed did not make any sense: the 54s behaves in a matter I have seen before only when testing long-range shots (when for long range I mean 150nm).
I guess we can only wait for a better implementation of the guidance. If, eventually, we AWG-9/Phoenix duo will acquire the features they are still missing, the wait will be well worth it.

Agreed

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Zaphael said:

An interesting observation though... the AGM-88 HARM, a < Mach 2 missile, races into the loft so much much faster than the Phoenix. Will ED be doing flight model accurate adjustments to all missiles?

It is slimmer and lighter than Phoenix, so it might be accelerating faster but only does so for a shorter time and does not climb that much. I don't know its state atm but surely ED wants to have everything done right eventually.

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/20/2022 at 7:05 AM, Biggus said:

I'm absolutely loving the 54 right now.  Out of the 20 or so I've fired on the hoggit servers, I've had one single miss.  The trick seems to be being high and fast, with some thought given to keeping your TID relatively uncluttered with contacts in the scan volume.  I'm not sure whether keeping the number of contacts on the TID low is important or not, but it seems to be easier for Jester to deal with.

Yes, it absolutely does. Especially if say, the guys you TWS launch at ~40nm are at 30,000 ft (you have TID range to 100nm) then another group at 5,000 ft shows up at 90nm, it will likely mess up the track of the first group. Always always always keep the TID range at the shortest increment possible when launching in TWS. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

But this shouldn't be happening with a target under attack? The radar should ingore anything outside the cone limits?

Thats correct, and its been reported and acknowledged as a bug. TMA (Target under missile attack) tracks should NEVER be put outside the radar cone UNLESS you have two TMA which fly in mutually exclusive directions, and a choice must be made. The computer will trash one of them to save the other. 

 

 


Edited by DoorMouse
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Interesting. I could swear it was working correctly for the longest time. I guess a new update somehow broke the logic?

Me too!  I was perplexed when I saw this happen.  Something got messed up... but its so obnoxious now and this combined with momentary network issues make long range shots a real roll of the dice at times 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DoorMouse said:

Me too!  I was perplexed when I saw this happen.  Something got messed up... but its so obnoxious now and this combined with momentary network issues make long range shots a real roll of the dice at times 

We already have a fix for the TWS weighting ready to be shipped with the next patch. 🙂


Edited by IronMike
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 6

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/19/2022 at 5:28 PM, sadjad-vosoul said:

Hi 

just wanna share my experience and what i have seen from latest update !
this is tacview file of (IIAF vs CNF) SATAC match 2/12/2022 , also you will see in tacview we (IIAF) brought 4x F-14B with 4x phoenix for each in the match (round 2) and .... i would better say nothing and please watch the tacview file by your own !
you can see me with "ISAAC" name flown there with Human RIO "CIPHER"  ! 

my best regards

love & peace

ISAAC

 

CNF_vs_IIAF_Round_2.zip.acmi 3.55 MB · 19 downloads

 

The CNF is a squadron with really great SA. Which is, I hate to say it my dear friend, what this tacview shows primarily. There is no shame in losing to them, but I would not blame it on the aim54 from watching this. None of the missiles from the IIAF hit, 120, aim7 and aim54 alike. A lot of the times this is true for the CNF's missiles as well btw, SD10, 120 or otherwise. It is when you press into the merge, when friendly fires on friendly, when aim54 are being lobbed out there without guidance, when there is no box or other tactical approach, when the SA starts falling apart, etc. where it goes all south. Relying on the aim54 instead of more cohesive team tactics is not an advisable course of action against an opponent as strong as the CNF. And with all my admiration for how galantly you guys conduct yourselves, I would not blame it on the missile that you lost (not saying that you do). 🙂 We've seen successful aim54 employment online and in SATAL now, too, to know it works, if you make it work. But taking on the CNF requires a much more cohesive team approach, regardless of platform and missiles, if you'll allow me a bit of constructive criticism here. It would be too much to dissect the entire tacview and to go in to that much detail here unfortunately, but the gest of it is: they maintain a higher SA throughout the furball as more experienced lone-wolves within a bigger team, to carry them through the chaos, once it unfolds. The Tomcats on your side have by that point basically traded in most of their advantages. It needs a much more disciplined hot-cold cycle keeping the enemy at distance to make them bleed their missiles before you have bleeded yours. A classic form of long distance boxing. That is not easy to pull off against someone like the CNF at all. 😉 Hope that helps a little bit at least.

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, DoorMouse said:

This is awesome. Thank you very much for the quick turn around on that, as always!

 

Ill continue to try to break things in the meantime 🙂

Please do. Thanks again for the great reporting! It is much appreciated!

  • Like 1

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dear @IronMike  , my best friend 🙂  no doubt they have been best in that match and congrats to them again .
but i am talking about 2 phoenix that i shot and at all i am confused about performance !!! 
first shot : altitude : 15000  speed M1.14 within 15NM PAL (PSTT) mode !!! target became hot 

image.png

second shot : like first shot , PAL (PSTT) within 10NM and again target hot ! 

image.png

image.png

at all i am just confused from this performance , while as i know the NEZ (No Escape Zone ) is like 12 NM in PAL mode !! 
my dear @IronMike  i never ever blame anyone or anything , except myself 😅
i am just confused ! thats  all !

my best regards 
ISAAC 


 


Edited by sadjad-vosoul
 
icon modules dcs small.png
 
My Liveries : Download Here       IIF Project : Click here       My Discord : Isaac#5625       Iranian DCS Community Discord Channel : Click Here
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
My Gear :

CPU: i5 7500 @ 3.8GHz | Mainboard: ASUS STRIX H270F Gaming | Ram: 32gig 2400 | GPU: ASUS DUAL GTX 1060 6G OC | Monitor: ASUS VG278HE 27" 144Hrz | Headtracker: Open Track + DIY Clips | HOTAS : T.16000M | Mouse & Keyboard: ROG IMPACT II & Cooler Master Devastator 3

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

WISH LIST Maps : Iraq and West of IRAN  | Vietnam 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/18/2022 at 2:18 PM, IronMike said:

It looks to me that you break into a beam, before your missiles go active, so one luckily happens to guide (but too late + no need to add pitch which borked it even further), but the others basically miss because of it. Especially with 6nm on pitbull, you need to make sure to guide them all the way in. If you want to do stuff like that, it is better to set it to large, so it starts being pitbull at its maximum range.

Wait - You absolutely can move to gimbal limit and go into a proper F-Pole maneuver.... Right?  If you break the lock the Radar will tell you by putting an X over the target, so you can maneuver as much as you want and the TID will indicate if it has trashed the lock. 

Also, even if you manually lofted them shouldn't they know their position and try to steer down earlier? 12* loft angle for a 60 mile shot, and cranking within gimbal limits seems like a perfectly reasonable shot to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sadjad-vosoul said:

while as i know the NEZ (No Escape Zone ) is like 12 NM in PAL mode !! 

*was* 12 miles. 

Your first shot was from medium-lowish altitude against a cold target at low altitude, it simply ran out of smash once the motor burnt out. The AIM-54 is far less fond of low altitude these days. 

Your second shot looks like it was still guiding on fish rather than bluebird, who was still beaming, only you were both lower and he was now faster, so an even more difficult shot for the missile. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DoorMouse said:

Wait - You absolutely can move to gimbal limit and go into a proper F-Pole maneuver.... Right?  If you break the lock the Radar will tell you by putting an X over the target, so you can maneuver as much as you want and the TID will indicate if it has trashed the lock. 

The radar will indicate when the track has been extrapolated because it can't correlate any hits to that track with an x over that track. Maneuvering will increase the probability that the radar goofs and the tracks will enter extrapolation, but you you should be okay as long as you don't exceed 3Gs and stay upright. 

1 hour ago, DoorMouse said:

Also, even if you manually lofted them shouldn't they know their position and try to steer down earlier? 12* loft angle for a 60 mile shot, and cranking within gimbal limits seems like a perfectly reasonable shot to me. 

It most should, but ironing out the guidance algorithms has always been an iterative process in the DCS-Sphere. Both the AIM-120 and AIM-7 went through these quibbles when they were transitioned to the new APN math. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, near_blind said:

The radar will indicate when the track has been extrapolated because it can't correlate any hits to that track with an x over that track. Maneuvering will increase the probability that the radar goofs and the tracks will enter extrapolation, but you you should be okay as long as you don't exceed 3Gs and stay upright. 

It most should, but ironing out the guidance algorithms has always been an iterative process in the DCS-Sphere. Both the AIM-120 and AIM-7 went through these quibbles when they were transitioned to the new APN math. 

Missing my point a bit here.  Yes I know that if you excessively maneuver widly it will cause your track to turn into a Hold Track. Not what I am asking.....

My point is that you dont have to GUESS that the track is not working and that the response IronMike gave was confusing, because presumably the guy in the clip I was referencing EXPLICITLY KNEW if his track was trashed or not.  Or is Iron Mike saying that there is some way the track would be trashed and it would not explicitly tell you on the TID that it is somehow not feeding data to the missile any longer. 

In any case, it doesn't explain why the missile did not correctly start pointing at the target until it was above it. I am surprised that a 12 degree manual loft is "extreme" at a 60+ mile shot. 


Edited by DoorMouse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

28 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

My point is that you dont have to GUESS that the track is not working and that the response IronMike gave was confusing, because presumably the guy in the clip I was referencing EXPLICITLY KNEW if his track was trashed or not.  Or is Iron Mike saying that there is some way the track would be trashed and it would not explicitly tell you on the TID that it is somehow not feeding data to the missile any longer. 

It looks like Mike was saying that he believes the shooter maneuvered in such a way that the missiles didn't receive the active command, which would be extra important because with TGT size small that will occur later than normal.

29 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

In any case, it doesn't explain why the missile did not correctly start pointing at the target until it was above it. I am surprised that a 12 degree manual loft is "extreme" at a 60+ mile shot. 

It isn't an extreme loft. There are issues with the loft and guidance algorithm that are acknowledged and will be worked out going forward. For now, manual lofting is advised against because it exacerbates that particular issue. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, sadjad-vosoul said:

My dear @IronMike  , my best friend 🙂  no doubt they have been best in that match and congrats to them again .
but i am talking about 2 phoenix that i shot and at all i am confused about performance !!! 
first shot : altitude : 15000  speed M1.14 within 15NM PAL (PSTT) mode !!! target became hot 

image.png

second shot : like first shot , PAL (PSTT) within 10NM and again target hot ! 

image.png

image.png

at all i am just confused from this performance , while as i know the NEZ (No Escape Zone ) is like 12 NM in PAL mode !! 
my dear @IronMike  i never ever blame anyone or anything , except myself 😅
i am just confused ! thats  all !

my best regards 
ISAAC 


 

 

yeah those are the low altitudes working against you buddy, the missile is thick and in thick air it will decelerate approx. twice as fast as an aim120. being high and far works much better in its favor. at these ranges, down low, Tomcats usually used aim7s, tbf that is not really an option on SATAL. But to make these low shots count, depending on altitude, you have to be within motor burn time, 25seconds is not much, which means: close. 10+nm at that altitude if the bandit is not really full hot, or even cold, it won't work.

  • Like 1

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said:

I guess i didn't have an answer when I asked about if we will have the option with Jester to select the target to shoot in TWS, it is a basic to perform sorting in BVR.

Maybe it is possible and I dunno.

Not answered because it's OT here. It's not possible flying solo in MP atm - only with human RIO in MP or by changing seats in SP. The option for sorting in TWS might be considered by the HB team while they get to reworking Jester.

  • Like 1

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone had much success firing from an altitude between 30k&42k ft M1.2 at a target 45-60nm away at around 10k ft on a hot non manoeuvring target. TWS, nose, small. Between 0&5 deg loft? Im finding that each time the missile decends from 25k to 10k it just runs out of juice. Because it hit the thicker air. Im seeing the 54 get to about 14-15 seconds and then it’s so slow the count actually starts climbing up. When I check f6 view the bandit still hasn’t turned the missile still has 5nm to go. This is a different story to a bandit that stays around 25k to 35k. Just any target that stays hot around 10k or lower can just press without being hit. Can we no longer look to engage targets at <10k from distance?Just like some other opinions on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...