AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion

[TOMCATZ]

Hi trenchfeet,

 

I found out that it is possible. Yesterday I was able to kill bandits twice out of 80NM. I was in 43 thousand feet with 0.9. I lifted the nose up to around 15 degrees. It was more a try to see what will happen. Interestingly the missiles climbed up to 90 thousand feet and felt down like a piano but still with Mach 2. And the missiles still were tracking the target. One of the KI Enemy tried a lazy turn with 3g's and was hit from above. The Other MiG23 still moved forward and catches a direct hit- so there was not that much to do for the Phoenix. 

I still in the position, that the guidance is broken or the logic is not correct. But for the flight model of the missile is pretty cool. So I decided in that way: If I'm below 20 thousand, I only do a shoot under 20 NM's. And even that is highly optimistic. But if I'm above 35 thousand (And that is were I want to be in a Tomcat), I start my missiles in 60 miles or sooner. 

But from my point of view: If the missile is active and the seeker has no contact, the missile should be updated by the Tomcat radar if the Cat is still illuminating the target. So the outflying of the bandits out of the seeker limits of the missile and even notching the missile should not be possible. But that is, what the AI in DCS is doing with highly success. And the missile take not much g. How much g's can the AIM 54 take?  (I just ask for a friend ) 

 

Cheers

TOM

[Spurts]

It has been acknowledged by HB that the current Phoenix had its G limits reduced to avoid snap-turns when going active that would cause it to lose a full Mach of speed at times.  After guidance is fixed by ED then the G limit can be restored.

[The_Doktor]

Let´s check out:

https://www.navy.mil/DesktopModules/ArticleCS/Print.aspx?PortalId=1&ModuleId=724&Article=2168381

1972:
The United States approves the sale of 274 Phoenix missiles to Iran for $150 million. [Note: Final delivery of this deal is in May 1979.]
AIM-54 entered full production.
April 28  First AIM-54A launch from an F-14 Tomcat. The aircraft was flying from Point Mugu.
November  Navy breaks new ground with several first recorded during a single flight: This was the first multiple launch from an F-14A aircraft, and the first multiple launch against multiple targets by a military crew. The missile performed satisfactorily. LCDR Donald G. Klein and Lt. Jack H. Hawyer were the F-14A crew for the historic launch.
December 20 An F-14 accomplished a 'four-for-four' AIM-54 test over the Pt. Mugu missile range. Flying at M0.7 and at 31,500 ft, the Tomcat launched four AIM-54s against five targets three QT-33 and two BQM-34, each flying at M0.6 and at altitudes of between 20,000 ft and 25,000 ft. The missiles were fired at relatively short ranges, between 25 and 30 miles, and were launched in quick succession - not simultaneously. One missile scored a direct hit and the three others passed within the warheadslethal zones, thus scoring hits.

1973:
June Hughes completed their testing program with a world record-setting performance; launched from an F-14A over Pt. Mugu, a Phoenix missile was launched against a BQM-34E Firebee drone at a distance of 110 nautical miles. This shattered the previous record of 76 nautical miles, which was achieved during the RDT&E phase. At the time the missile had achieved a 77% success rate, with 43 scored hits out of a total of 56 missiles launched from various aircraft.
November AIM-54A Technical Evaluation completed. The first AIM-54A production units delivered for deployment on the new F-14A Tomcat.
November 21 First Phoenix proves effectiveness in full-arsenal testing on an F-14 operating over the Pacific Missile Sea Test Range. The F-14 fired six Phoenix missiles over a 38-second period and guided them simultaneously at six separate targets 50 miles away, obtaining four direct hits. Flown by CDR John R. Smoke Wilson and LCDR Jack Hauver, the Tomcat was flying at speed of M0.78 and an altitude of 24,800 ft - while the target drones were flying at speeds of M0.6 to M1.1. This was the only time six Phoenix were launched by a single aircraft.
Phoenix testing was completed in 1973 after a program of 60 launches.
The AIM-54A entered service with the US Navy in 1973 and became operational in 1974. The Phoenix missile is only carried by the F-14 Tomcat.

 

 

[DoorMouse]

11 hours ago, The_Doktor said:

November 21 First Phoenix proves effectiveness in full-arsenal testing on an F-14 operating over the Pacific Missile Sea Test Range. The F-14 fired six Phoenix missiles over a 38-second period and guided them simultaneously at six separate targets 50 miles away, obtaining four direct hits. Flown by CDR John R. Smoke Wilson and LCDR Jack Hauver, the Tomcat was flying at speed of M0.78 and an altitude of 24,800 ft - while the target drones were flying at speeds of M0.6 to M1.1. This was the only time six Phoenix were launched by a single aircraft.
 

Id love to see this re-created in game.  (Edit) apparently its been done, missed that

Edited February 24, 2022 by DoorMouse

[The_Doktor]

11 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

Id love to see this re-created in game. 

I have tested it as we speak. 6 hits on non manoeuvring co altitude target drones (MIG23).

 

not bad.

[DoorMouse]

1 minute ago, The_Doktor said:

I have tested it as we speak. 6 hits on non manoeuvring co altitude target drones (MIG23).

 

not bad.

Tacview available? 

[The_Doktor]

2 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

Tacview available? 

here are two tracks

Tacview-20220223-181142-DCS-A2A_Test.zip.acmi Tacview-20220223-202855-DCS.txt.acmi

[IronMike]

Guys, srsly, how often do I have to post this exact test over and over again?

[Biggus]

It's definitely been done to death.

Worth mentioning that one of the drones in the test malfunctioned and was impossible to hit, so was disregarded from the results as an anomaly.

[TOMCATZ]

Hello Mike,

finally I understood (hopefully) the new missile model. First: I got the trust back about my AIM54 missile. As long as the missile has speed- everything works fine and even the guidance is doing her job. I think there is still a g-limit but I can deal with it.  So- Great job- very well done!!! (my 2 cents) I got my fun back with that wonderfull brilliant masterpiece.

One question please: In case, the seeker is loosing the target because of limits or notching- does the missile receiving the update from the Tomcat radar in order to fight the way back on track? Is the missile logic a part of Heatblur or ED? 

 

Cheers 

a (very happy) TOM

[trenchfeet]

9 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

Hello Mike,

finally I understood (hopefully) the new missile model. First: I got the trust back about my AIM54 missile. As long as the missile has speed- everything works fine and even the guidance is doing her job. I think there is still a g-limit but I can deal with it.  So- Great job- very well done!!! (my 2 cents) I got my fun back with that wonderfull brilliant masterpiece.

One question please: In case, the seeker is loosing the target because of limits or notching- does the missile receiving the update from the Tomcat radar in order to fight the way back on track? Is the missile logic a part of Heatblur or ED? 

 

Cheers 

a (very happy) TOM

Thanks for the reply but we’re those bandits at or below 10000feet? 

[TOMCATZ]

Well - Of corse above 20 thousand. 

My tactic is to make the enemies shadowing my actions. That means I normally speed up and climb so that the oponents were forced to do the same. The perfect condition is that the AIM54 is on the way while the enemy is in climb, hot, high AND very slow. But even when they stay low- if the missile comes out of space with still mach2, there is mostly no direction to escape because the missile comes from above. Only the Flankers with ECM and Chaffs making my efforts very hard. 

 

Cheers

TOM

Edited February 26, 2022 by TOMCATZ

[HeavyGun1450]

Problem I have been seeing with the new phoenix model is that If you launch the phoenix at say 35kft, and your target is at say 10kft, the missile drags and decelerates horribly during it dive down to the target making it lose a ton of energy. None of the other missiles in DCS do this.

Edited February 26, 2022 by HeavyGun1450

[Spurts]

Which had been explained many times is due to the higher drag to weight ratio. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Spurts

[EnDSchultz]

I admit my first impressions were very cynical but it's still a pretty good missile after getting used to it. I will say the extra burn time of the mk60 is more than worth the price of the smoke trail in my opinion, especially against AI who don't care anyhow.

Finally managed to splash all 4 Jeffs before merge in the Instant Action scenario, even though there was a hefty bit of luck. I was sloppy and launched pretty significantly off the T, and my wingman ended up biting it. Actually quite a bit of missile-on-missile action here as an SD-10 appears to go after my barrage instead of me, and one of my Phoenixes actually engages and destroys a missile, presumably because its target got splashed.

I think once the -C variant has the ability to go pitbull on its own (that is a feature that's on the table, yeah?), it's going to become a hugely more viable alternative in those shoot-and-jink midrange fights against AMRAAM throwers.

Tacview-20220227-145832-DCS-F-14B_IA_Marianas_BVR_JF17.zip.acmi

[DoorMouse]

Edit:(i'll re-submit this with a separate bug report, and attach track files) 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by DoorMouse

[DSplayer]

6 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

Edit:(i'll re-submit this with a separate bug report, and attach track files) 

• Aim54 A Mk60. Launched ~M1 @ ~35kft. ~70nmi
• No manual loft (maybe 1-2 degrees above horizon. 
• Missile climbs to 100kft, never comes down until it is far too late.
• Track was held till approximately -5 seconds past predicted impact.  

I have the ACMI attached. Let me know if the track is helpful.

420th_vs_ETF_Round_2.zip.acmi 3.04 MB · 1 download

 

Looks like 420th learned how to defeat the Phoenix !

From my experience, it seems like a maneuvering target (either notching or other defensive maneuvers) will cause the AIM-54 to overpredict a loft (or get so high up it can't get out of a loft quick enough) and basically cause either a super steep decent angle or an overloft situation like shown.

Edit: I'm rewatching it again. I have zero idea why it went so high and didn't kill him. It lofted to 120k+ ft, that's altitudes for a ~95+nm shot while you shot at ~70nms. I'd assume the missile thought the closure rate was too slow and distance was erroneously large because that's basically the only explanation I got here. This is the only time I guess a negative loft would've perhaps benefited.

Edited February 28, 2022 by DSplayer

[Zaphael]

Just encounter an unusual behaviour of the Phoenix.  The intercept trajectory appears to be sub-optimised post-loft. Target was an IL-76 crossing from right to left at about 50Nmi.

When launched, the missile follows an initial lead pursuit which was fine. TID maintained the countdown track for the missile.

Just as the missile reaches its optimal loft and tips over, the missile begins to follow a pure pursuit trajectory, resulting in a lagging curve and a slight chase. This means the missile has to constantly introduce collision intercept corrections rather than aiming ahead of the target in a lead-to-collision transition which would conserve more energy.

Missile impacted by less than Mach 0.8

Screenshot showing the trail of the missile is attached. Its barely visible.

[IronMike]

We're currently investigating the loft issues. BTW if you happen to see any weird loft behavior, what really helps are short tracks. Thank you all for your input!

[bonesvf103]

How about this?  6 shots of AIM-54C Phoenix at 40,000 ft at F-4s ranging from 20000 to 35000 ft launched at about mach .95, head on with valid locks in TWS-A, range about 44 nm.

 

Only 2 hit.

What went wrong?

v6,

boNes

Tacview-20220315-143310-DCS-Six-shooter KB.zip.acmi

Edited March 15, 2022 by bonesvf103

[near_blind]

First miss bled all it's speed trying to cut the corner on an F-4 going Mach 1.5.
Second miss was either notched while looking down or ran into a potential guidance issue with the algorithm that forms the P/N curves. 

Third miss was dragged low and bled of speed.

Fourth miss was probably affected by the same P/N nonsense that caused #2. In real life that missile was probably close enough to fuze. 

 

The guidance is still WIP and will be until the API can be leveraged.

[bonesvf103]

49 minutes ago, near_blind said:

First miss bled all it's speed trying to cut the corner on an F-4 going Mach 1.5.
Second miss was either notched while looking down or ran into a potential guidance issue with the algorithm that forms the P/N curves. 

Third miss was dragged low and bled of speed.

Fourth miss was probably affected by the same P/N nonsense that caused #2. In real life that missile was probably close enough to fuze. 

 

The guidance is still WIP and will be until the API can be leveraged.

Hmm.  I wonder how these F-4s know these missiles are coming to drag them down low when they didn't go active until a few seconds before.  It's almost as if they could see them coming before they even went active.

The number to the left of the up/dopwn arrow is what?  And to the right of it is mach number?

v6,

boNes

[Spurts]

1 minute ago, bonesvf103 said:

Hmm.  I wonder how these F-4s know these missiles are coming to drag them down low when they didn't go active until a few seconds before.  It's almost as if they could see them coming before they even went active.

 

F-4s didn't maneuver until missiles were 9nm out

[bonesvf103]

On 2/26/2022 at 3:55 PM, HeavyGun1450 said:

Problem I have been seeing with the new phoenix model is that If you launch the phoenix at say 35kft, and your target is at say 10kft, the missile drags and decelerates horribly during it dive down to the target making it lose a ton of energy. None of the other missiles in DCS do this.

 

And that being the case, well, if the best place to be is at 35,000+ feet to fire a Phoenix and it runs out of juice because the target is at 10,000 ft, then what is the point of having a Phoenix at all?  If I shoot it at 10,000 ft so that it doesn't have to drop down a huge altitude difference, then it is losing energy by being in thicker air/having higher drag.  Why not just shoot a Sparrow at around the same altitude and have a higher chance of killing it?  oh, if you're shooting at low altitude then get in closer range since the air is thicker.  Then again, what is the point of having a Phoenix then?  I might as well use a Sparrow.

Just seems to me that everytime there is an advantage that the Phoenix is supposed to have it is negated by something, making it just as lethal and effective as a Sparrow or AMRAAM, if not worse, so I don't really see the point of carrying a Phoenix then.  Shoot it at high altitude...but then it doesn't have the energy against a low target. OK, shoot at a lower altitude...but then it is in thicker air and doesn't have the energy to hit the target or wastes it in an unnecessary loft.  The results always seem to ne to be inconsistent and mediocre, especially when fired under the same conditions.  I can shoot at the same conditions as say IronMike, and the missile will perform differently than from his test, or not perform the same way in my own after repeated tests.

It's a bit frustrating.

v6,

boNes

 

 

[draconus]

19 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

I wonder how these F-4s know these missiles are coming...

"We got Tomcat on RWR, 50nm hot, we better start notching and descend or we'll eat one of his Phoenix, probably already on the way" - that's what smart pilot would do.