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AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion


IronMike

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4 hours ago, Spurts said:

okay, first question is "Are you using AIM-54C?"  those are the only ones with a bugged loft profile AFAIK.

That's incorrect, all phoenixes can have loft issues, especially if you nose up and manually loft them. 

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23 hours ago, HarryCooter said:

In this particular instance, I believe I was in TWS until the 20 mile shot. TWS or STT, it's not working for me. I spent a couple days trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with this thing. I'm not wasting my time with it further until there is some fix. I almost wish I had never bought the damn thing, but it was fun for when it did work.

Would you be able to show a video of how that happened? As much as I find the Phoenix to be flying brick these days, its still a relatively fast brick - for a while. Other than over lofting, I have not encountered the issues you described.

Perhaps with a video plus tacview file, it may be possible to see what happened. The only thing I can think off at the moment is the centroid being out of position, and the radar ends up scanning some useless part of the airspace instead of the target under attack.

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19 hours ago, Zaphael said:

Would you be able to show a video of how that happened? As much as I find the Phoenix to be flying brick these days, its still a relatively fast brick - for a while. Other than over lofting, I have not encountered the issues you described.

Perhaps with a video plus tacview file, it may be possible to see what happened. The only thing I can think off at the moment is the centroid being out of position, and the radar ends up scanning some useless part of the airspace instead of the target under attack.

I don't have tacview and the track file is too large to be uploaded. I just watched the track file again, and all of this missiles just flew up and off into the distance except one. The one I fired at 14 miles looked like it was tracking but it must have been tracking a submarine because it drove straight into the drink. None of them tracked the target I had locked. I was playing with a guy last night who was managing to get hits with the AIM54. His ping was low and I'm usually playing on server with a ping of around 120. So, I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.

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2 hours ago, HarryCooter said:

I don't have tacview and the track file is too large to be uploaded. I just watched the track file again, and all of this missiles just flew up and off into the distance except one. The one I fired at 14 miles looked like it was tracking but it must have been tracking a submarine because it drove straight into the drink. None of them tracked the target I had locked. I was playing with a guy last night who was managing to get hits with the AIM54. His ping was low and I'm usually playing on server with a ping of around 120. So, I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.

120 isn't bad. But if you are having lots of packet loss or network issues then that could definitely be causing a whole host of issues. 

 

When you fire in TWS, is your ACM switch covered, your missile mode is NORM, and you have a confirmed GOOD TWS Track?  Do you hold a good track all the way until the PITBULL indication? 

 

Actually, you are saying "LOCKED" which makes me think you are STT. If you lock a target and fire a Phoenix at more than say 10-15 miles you can expect it to miss UNLESS you are in Pulse Doppler.  The Phoenix can only get guidance from the AWG9 from Pulse Doppler modes... TWS and PDSTT. If you are in PULSE STT then the Phoenix acts like a torpedo- it gets a direction, turns on it's seeker, and kills the first thing it sees friend or foe. 

I suspect you are using the incorrect mode for the job 


Edited by DoorMouse
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On 5/6/2022 at 10:23 AM, DoorMouse said:

120 isn't bad. But if you are having lots of packet loss or network issues then that could definitely be causing a whole host of issues. 

 

When you fire in TWS, is your ACM switch covered, your missile mode is NORM, and you have a confirmed GOOD TWS Track?  Do you hold a good track all the way until the PITBULL indication? 

 

Actually, you are saying "LOCKED" which makes me think you are STT. If you lock a target and fire a Phoenix at more than say 10-15 miles you can expect it to miss UNLESS you are in Pulse Doppler.  The Phoenix can only get guidance from the AWG9 from Pulse Doppler modes... TWS and PDSTT. If you are in PULSE STT then the Phoenix acts like a torpedo- it gets a direction, turns on it's seeker, and kills the first thing it sees friend or foe. 

I suspect you are using the incorrect mode for the job 

 

I have been using voice attack for controlling Jester. If "track single bogey ahead" defaults to P-STT then that would explain why that is happening with that command, but it still wouldn't explain why the missiles also fly off in TWS mode. I'm not the only one having this issue with the missiles flying off, which leads me to believe there's an issue with the missile guidance rather than user error(which some of it very well could be). 

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On 5/6/2022 at 10:23 AM, DoorMouse said:

120 isn't bad. But if you are having lots of packet loss or network issues then that could definitely be causing a whole host of issues. 

 

When you fire in TWS, is your ACM switch covered, your missile mode is NORM, and you have a confirmed GOOD TWS Track?  Do you hold a good track all the way until the PITBULL indication? 

 

Actually, you are saying "LOCKED" which makes me think you are STT. If you lock a target and fire a Phoenix at more than say 10-15 miles you can expect it to miss UNLESS you are in Pulse Doppler.  The Phoenix can only get guidance from the AWG9 from Pulse Doppler modes... TWS and PDSTT. If you are in PULSE STT then the Phoenix acts like a torpedo- it gets a direction, turns on it's seeker, and kills the first thing it sees friend or foe. 

I suspect you are using the incorrect mode for the job 

 

I just went and tried all the different modes to see. All missiles just went straight and flew off into the distance, it didn't matter which mode I used.

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3 hours ago, HarryCooter said:

I just went and tried all the different modes to see. All missiles just went straight and flew off into the distance, it didn't matter which mode I used.

Ok well you are definitely doing something wrong. It does work appropriately 

 

Are you holding the TWS track till pitbull? IE you let it create a track number and hold it till it times out and blinks?

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To be fair I also do see AIM-54s fly off into space sometimes. My feeling is that when it happens, it's because the missile lofts when it shouldn't, and then it's so nose up it never really gets guidance updates and it goes on in a ballistic trajectory or something.

In my experience in SP, it's only an edge case and it's easily solved by just firing in P-STT, since it appears to happen at intermediate to short ranges anyway.


Edited by TLTeo
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On 5/7/2022 at 1:05 PM, HarryCooter said:

I have been using voice attack for controlling Jester. If "track single bogey ahead" defaults to P-STT then that would explain why that is happening with that command, but it still wouldn't explain why the missiles also fly off in TWS mode. I'm not the only one having this issue with the missiles flying off, which leads me to believe there's an issue with the missile guidance rather than user error(which some of it very well could be). 

Yes, when you tell Jester to STT he will PSTT and then your missile is hopelessly searching with its seeker on. The seeker can only detect at ~10 miles. 

TWS you should be getting them to guide. There is a loft error but its relatively uncommon.  My suspicion is that you are not holding the track and need to read the symbiology. Could be wrong, but never hurts to review the manual : https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#tid-symbology

 

 

In any case, I promise that it does and can work just fine in single and multiplayer. The loft and or guidance issues are not a 100% of the time bug


Edited by DoorMouse
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I will say, I was initally quite shocked with how significantly the changes impacted the employment tactics of the AIM-54. Probably to the point of overreacting a bit. After experimetning more and trying the weapon in different situations I can conclude it's still a viable missile if employed in the right ways. It highlights the F-14's role as a medium-to-high altitude fighter-interceptor. You can still make absolutely unbelievable high-to-high shots that no other weapon in the game can reasonably replicate.

Simultaneously, this makes it a bit more of a niche weapon now. It definitely isn't as reliable/safe anymore within AMRAAM WEZ for a large variety of reasons, though mostly guidance and AWG-9 related. Vipers, Hornets and Jeffs that manage to cross into 20 miles will (and should) be posing a very serious threat.

It puts a much bigger burden on geometry and maintaining separation, making the jet less suited for lone wolf crews, much less solo pilots. This is much less due to AIM-54 performance and almost entirely on how easy it is for aware pilots to defeat the AWG-9 in TWS. Especially with Jester at the controls...

I'll miss the old days, but it's probably a lot more realistic this way.

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6 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

AI shouldn't react to what it shouldn't know is coming.  And when it's ingress is potentially in error, it should pay the price.  Now it does.  

I was a little afraid that the new BVR AI, combined with the current still flawed guidance behavior might make the AIM-54 worse against AI.  Sounds like maybe it's balanced out, though? 

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3 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said:

I was a little afraid that the new BVR AI, combined with the current still flawed guidance behavior might make the AIM-54 worse against AI.  Sounds like maybe it's balanced out, though? 

There are guidance issues for missiles, but against AI they have been aggravated in the past because of the responsiveness of said opponents to weapons that no human would know was inbound.  Because of this, higher AI levels would begin defensive maneuvering and chaff well in advance of when they should, compounding the rate of missing Fox 3s. 

So yes- this is a a correction that is going some way into solving old issues to a degree.  Guidance should still be fixed, so that the correct tactical implications should be in play, but this is a step in the right direction.

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14 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

AI shouldn't react to what it shouldn't know is coming.

I don't know what is in your track but it always was about expecting incoming missile, not only reacting to what you can see or detect. The very same thing good pilots do facing TWS/Fox3 capable enemy.

Afaik last AI implementation cheated by reacting to the actual launched missile and did not react while there was no launch (but should expect one).

 

btw: My yesterday trial fight against ace AI F-15C armed with 120C-5s took 4 AIM-54Cs, 2 MHs (one of them hit) and 1 SW 😉


Edited by draconus

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I just came back to the F-14 after a year break or so flying other modules and I found all missiles on it to be useless in multiplayer. I flew around for 4 hours on the Growling Sidewinder server and couldn't shoot 1 plane down with either the AIM-54 or AIM-7. I used to be able to get kills relatively easy with it a year or more ago though. I think I saw some 5 other F-14's on the server with no kills either. 


Edited by Ikaros
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33 minutes ago, Ikaros said:

I just came back to the F-14 after a year break or so flying other modules and I found all missiles on it to be useless in multiplayer. I flew around for 4 hours on the Growling Sidewinder server and couldn't shoot 1 plane down with either the AIM-54 or AIM-7. I used to be able to get kills relatively easy with it a year or more ago though. I think I saw some 5 other F-14's on the server with no kills either. 

 

What was the issue? Did thr missile keep track and was simply out maneuvered or did it lose track? I've played on GS a lot (having a break from the f14) and found I lose track on nearly all Phoenixs after only a few seconds flight with the target reappearing instantly. Happens on Buddyspike servers so not just GS server problem. 

 

If they are being out maneuvered then you must change the way you engage as its very different to 1 year ago. I wouldn't advise below 30k, over 45Nm and below Mach 1 on a hot target. And only 1 missile at a time. 

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7 hours ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

What was the issue? Did thr missile keep track and was simply out maneuvered or did it lose track? I've played on GS a lot (having a break from the f14) and found I lose track on nearly all Phoenixs after only a few seconds flight with the target reappearing instantly. Happens on Buddyspike servers so not just GS server problem. 

 

If they are being out maneuvered then you must change the way you engage as its very different to 1 year ago. I wouldn't advise below 30k, over 45Nm and below Mach 1 on a hot target. And only 1 missile at a time. 

 

I don't doubt any of your observations here - they're in line with my own thoughts of the current Phoenix. 

What it makes me wonder is - is there some issue with the drag computations on the 54 in game, or is the problem entirely a poor loft profile / late stage pursuit steering thats resulting in these types of ranges.

Against fighters the weak link is the AWG-9 and the TWS implementation so ignoring that for a second bombers probably will be nearer 30k if we imagine the Soviet hoards approaching the CVBG, the closure rates and the available range aren't really in line with what I've read the requirements for the missile to be.

If the test criteria included hitting low fliers and high fliers and shots out to 90nm all the chat (and my own experience) of Pk falling off a cliff beyond 45nm either 

a) the missile didn't meet the criteria - despite the much watched test shot videos

b) the missile did but DCS has some combination of drag / guidance / loft issues

c) ?

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5 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

I mean, the issues DCS has with guidance and (in MP) net code are well known...

Yes, I guess I wasn't being very specific. It's hard to keep track sometimes of what the current (accepted) limits of the sim are, vs whats considered a bug vs whats been reported but is hearsay etc.

You're right that I've seen plenty of threads regarding MP net code, and guidance generally, and some changes around the Phoenix specifically. Just keeping up with the current state of the art and expectations can sometimes feel like a full time job. Hence every so often I'm just left going huh, theres a disconnect between what I'd expected of the 54 vs what I'm seeing.

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10 hours ago, draconus said:

I don't know what is in your track but it always was about expecting incoming missile, not only reacting to what you can see or detect. The very same thing good pilots do facing TWS/Fox3 capable enemy.

 

The latter has no bearing on what has been observed for years.  You should have considered what was said and watched the track first. 

 

10 hours ago, draconus said:

Afaik last AI implementation cheated by reacting to the actual launched missile and did not react while there was no launch (but should expect one).

 

Good on you for coming around to the same thing I'd already said twice- that is, AI should not immediately respond to missiles it wouldn't know are inbound. 

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1 hour ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Yes, I guess I wasn't being very specific. It's hard to keep track sometimes of what the current (accepted) limits of the sim are, vs whats considered a bug vs whats been reported but is hearsay etc.

This is a very significant observation. We literally have no idea what’s going on in the core to even guess if it’s an ED issue, a Heatblur issue, or an us issue. And with every update any variable can change with no specific description in the update documents. 

Now that aircraft mods have become really good, a great tool would be some fixed standard “test drone” or “Sounding Rocket” to probe the physics of the world to determine if the ED version of the laws of physics are even behaving properly.

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1 hour ago, lunaticfringe said:

Good on you for coming around to the same thing I'd already said twice- that is, AI should not immediately respond to missiles it wouldn't know are inbound. 

But I say they still should react but with consistency, also when we don't shoot, because they should not know - only expect.

If I had TacView I would've watched - that's why I asked what was your findings.

@AH_Solid_Snake But the test shots or long shots vs bombers are still fine - just manuevering fighters are harder to get because they are low sometimes and they, well, maneuver.

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16 minutes ago, draconus said:

But I say they still should react but with consistency, also when we don't shoot, because they should not know - only expect.

 

There is a fundamental difference between a check turn or momentarily flowing cold based on detected range or an elevation in SPO reported power, and the AI immediately going evasive on a TWS launch at any range.  The latter was the issue.  It's currently not.  Conflating matters just to have cause to speak offers nothing. 

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