AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion

[Zpigman]

I have done some simple shooting in the 14, and have noticed that the 54As are doing much better in guidance. I was firing at ranges of 55-60nm at angels 25-30, shooting at targets above and below. What I have seen is that I am able to reach out to the targets no problem, even at lower altitude, and that I haven't been having any of the guidance issues I have had in the past. Is this from new from the latest update or something else?

[HarryCooter]

4 hours ago, Zpigman said:

I have done some simple shooting in the 14, and have noticed that the 54As are doing much better in guidance. I was firing at ranges of 55-60nm at angels 25-30, shooting at targets above and below. What I have seen is that I am able to reach out to the targets no problem, even at lower altitude, and that I haven't been having any of the guidance issues I have had in the past. Is this from new from the latest update or something else?

Huh, that's odd. I just watched a couple other guys' AIM54's track some unsimulated satellites. So I switched over to the F14 to see if it was just them and had the same experience with every shot except one shot I made on someone already going down at 6 miles away. I don't care what anyone says, the Aim54 is broken and it's made the F14 unplayable. I want my money back.

Edited May 19, 2022 by HarryCooter

[lunaticfringe]

2 minutes ago, HarryCooter said:

Huh, that's odd. I just watched a couple other guys' AIM54's track some unstimulated satellites. So I switched over to the F14 to see if it was just them and had the same experience with every shot except one shot I made on someone already going down at 6 miles away. I don't care what anyone says, the Aim54 is broken and it's made the F14 unplayable. I want my money back.

Let's see some Tacviews of what you see is happening.  Use the free demo.  

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, TLTeo said:

I mean, the issues DCS has with guidance and (in MP) net code are well known...

Contrary to most people that have a gripe with the current implementation, my issue is not with the upper range performance, but with the more medium range shots against non maneuvering hot or slightly offset bandits. Namely the bell distribution curve for PKs is way too normal (that is symmetric on both sides of the median) when compared with most written or spoken accounts of doctrinal use, that imply it should be skewered towards the nearer ranges. Hopefully improvement in guidance algorithms remedies that. However, it could be that all those mentioned accounts are wrong or exaggerating or outright lies. In such a case maybe the best PK zone is a narrow band around the ideal range that leans both slopes in an equal differential and we are all just spitting at the wind here    

[WarthogOsl]

Hmm..not sure if I should be impressed with the new BVR AI against the Phoenix or not.  I have a little 1v2 training scenario where I launch Phoenixs at MiG-23s and MiG-25's at around 65 miles.  In 3 1v2 engagements, it looked like half the planes flew straight into the water trying to avoid the AIM-54.  Is that a kill, lol?  I think I only got one or two actual hits from long range, but then I've never done great in this particular mission file, for whatever reason (I have better success on the Through the Inferno PvE server, for example)

[draconus]

25 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said:

In 3 1v2 engagements, it looked like half the planes flew straight into the water trying to avoid the AIM-54.

Yeah it's a kill. Usual WIP AI stuff. Just save a track and report:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/423-ai-bugs-non-combined-arms/

7 hours ago, HarryCooter said:

I want my money back.

Impossible due to #5 in EULA (which you agreed to).

 

[HarryCooter]

9 hours ago, draconus said:

Yeah it's a kill. Usual WIP AI stuff. Just save a track and report:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/423-ai-bugs-non-combined-arms/

Impossible due to #5 in EULA (which you agreed to).

 

Exactly why I said "want" and not "got".

17 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

Let's see some Tacviews of what you see is happening.  Use the free demo.  

Working on it. I got Tacview today but I only managed to record 3 out of 10 flights. So, I need to figure out how to actually use it. From my flights today, it appears that if the missile doesn't loft it performs just fine. The only engagement I managed to record where I kept TWS tracks the whole time the missiles didn't loft and performed just fine. However, I had a couple situations today where I kept TWS tracks all the way up until all missiles got down to 0 but they were all just flying off into nowhere. All of those missiles were fired between 25-40 miles at 25k+ feet and all lofted.

Edited May 20, 2022 by HarryCooter

[Callsign JoNay]

Are you using Cs? Are you using Target size Small? Are you over-assisting the loft, especially at medium range? You risk your missiles going into space if you do those things.

[HarryCooter]

15 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Are you using Cs? Are you using Target size Small? Are you over-assisting the loft, especially at medium range? You risk your missiles going into space if you do those things.

In my experience, it doesn't matter which variant I use or the target size. If it lofts at decent altitude, its trashed. I only play the beta version of DCS, so maybe that's relevant. I am not aware of any difference in the missiles between the versions. Just based on what I have seen, it looks like a lofting algorithm problem. The missiles way over loft at higher altitudes, and after they have gone past the target they do this fake tracking maneuver by diving down at nothing and then pitch up and self-destruct. For some reason, Tacview only records the first flight of my session or I would have a few recordings to really see what's going on. Does anyone know if there is some start recording command or something like that I need to do to record subsequent flights?  

[Quid]

With the AI update, just about every shot you take is going to have to be a lot closer.  I have the Tacview of an engagement on Through the Inferno where a player flying an F/A-18C tried to splash a 3-ship of Fulcrums, flying at 0.91 and about 33,000 feet, launching against the lead MiG-29A at 28.54nm, while the MiG-29A was closing at 1.21M at over 34,000 feet.  The Fulcrum performed one of the craziest defenses I've ever seen, not even starting to threat-react until 8.33nm.  Harsh dive with high-g, out-pulled the missile, then pulled back up, recommitted and continued towards the Hornet (who probably lost SA and continued firing AMRAAMs at the other two - one at 28.84nm at 1.03M and 36087ft, and the next at 14.04nm at 34066ft and 0.76M).  Not a single AMRAAM hit, every Fulcrum managed to defeat every missile fired at those altitudes and high closure velocities, and the lead MiG killed the Hornet with an R73 face-shot.

Myself and another Hornet closed on the same Fulcrum flight, I managed to kill one of them launching at 47.05nm from 38703ft and 1.15M; the AIM-54 that hit, hit a Fulcrum that appears to have tried to stay slow, getting no higher than 0.4M at about 30000ft.  My second AIM-54 (fired at 38nm) at a fast-closing (lead) MiG-29 bit off on chaff.  The F/A-18 that followed behind me hit the other two, firing one AMRAAM at 20.8nm at 37000ft against the closing Fulcrum at 1.9M (yes, 1.9) and 38000ft.  I thought I got him with an AIM-9 but going back over the Tacview, it was the F/A-18's AMRAAM that just beat my Sidewinder to the bandit.  His second AMRAAM was launched at the last Fulcrum from 15nm at 34550ft and 1.02M against the Fulcrum at 30156ft and 1.16M.

So, in this engagement:

5 AMRAAMs fired, all high altitude, all under 30nm, 2 hit
2 Phoenix fired, both high altitude, one high closure, one low closure, 1 hit, 1 had the potential to hit but bit off on chaff

Earlier in the flight I also shot down an F-4 from 44.9nm at high altitude, but that AI was set to normal and didn't do any truly hard maneuvers (weird diving spiral thing that the missile didn't really need to adjust to make the intercept point).

Suffice to say that with this update, even going against AI you're going to have to adjust your tactics regardless of which missile you're using; Phoenix, AMRAAM, or otherwise.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Quid
Correctness

[Callsign JoNay]

9 hours ago, HarryCooter said:

In my experience, it doesn't matter which variant I use or the target size. If it lofts at decent altitude, its trashed. I only play the beta version of DCS, so maybe that's relevant. I am not aware of any difference in the missiles between the versions. Just based on what I have seen, it looks like a lofting algorithm problem. The missiles way over loft at higher altitudes, and after they have gone past the target they do this fake tracking maneuver by diving down at nothing and then pitch up and self-destruct. For some reason, Tacview only records the first flight of my session or I would have a few recordings to really see what's going on. Does anyone know if there is some start recording command or something like that I need to do to record subsequent flights?  

All the things I mentioned are pitfalls on the current open beta. Try Alpha Mark 60s, target size large, and don't over do it on assisting the loft, and tell me if your missiles still go into orbit. If they do then you're probably not holding a good track.

[Ikaros]

Another 4 hours in multiplayer with me unable to hit a single target with the AIM-54. TWS Auto, STT, didn't even matter. I couldn't even survive long enough to get to the merge to use an AIM-7. 

I remember being able to destroy other players at 40/50 miles over a year ago. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Ikaros

[Redwing_204]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:00 PM, Zpigman said:

I have done some simple shooting in the 14, and have noticed that the 54As are doing much better in guidance. I was firing at ranges of 55-60nm at angels 25-30, shooting at targets above and below. What I have seen is that I am able to reach out to the targets no problem, even at lower altitude, and that I haven't been having any of the guidance issues I have had in the past. Is this from new from the latest update or something else?

Could you post a tacview showing a 60 nm kill with the phoenix fired at angels 25?  That's not at all my current experience with those missiles.  At angels 30 or higher, and flying at better than Mach 1, I'm seeing the kill range closer to 35 nm.  Below about angels 28, the phoenix seems to bleed speed very quickly from what I've seen.  I'd be grateful if you'd post a tacview so that I can see your 60 nm kills with the phoenix fired at altitudes below angels 30 in particular (but frankly any kill at 60 nm with the phoenix right now would be interesting to see).   

Edited May 22, 2022 by Redwing_204

[Callsign JoNay]

I did one or two dozen tests yesterday and today verses a 2-ship of J-11s. 

-AIM-54A M60

-Mach 1.1-1.2 at launch, usually at around 30-35k at around 55-65 NM.

-TWSA and TGT Size large.

 

I assist the loft a bit, but not too much. Missiles are getting up to about 65K, and still dong about Mach 3 at pitbull. Not all my missiles hit, (the AI actually knows the split-S now), but they track well and get close. None of them, not even one, went stupid into space like some people are experiencing.

 

Here's a follow up shot closer range from down low, AI still performs perfect last resort notches. What can you do? It's ED AI.

Overall the missiles are tracking very well for me and retaining energy, (not over-maneuvering after pitbull), much better than they were a year ago. Chaff resistance is also far better. I'm much happier with the Phoenix than at this time last year when my PK was less than 10%. Now it's probably around 40% under the same conditions. I'm really looking forward to the completed API and the finishing touches on the Phoenix.

[Redwing_204]

4 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

I did one or two dozen tests yesterday and today verses a 2-ship of J-11s. 

-AIM-54A M60

-Mach 1.1-1.2 at launch, usually at around 30-35k at around 55-65 NM.

-TWSA and TGT Size large.

 

I assist the loft a bit, but not too much. Missiles are getting up to about 65K, and still dong about Mach 3 at pitbull. Not all my missiles hit, (the AI actually knows the split-S now), but they track well and get close. None of them, not even one, went stupid into space like some people are experiencing.

 

Here's a follow up shot closer range from down low, AI still performs perfect last resort notches. What can you do? It's ED AI.

Overall the missiles are tracking very well for me and retaining energy, (not over-maneuvering after pitbull), much better than they were a year ago. Chaff resistance is also far better. I'm much happier with the Phoenix than at this time last year when my PK was less than 10%. Now it's probably around 40% under the same conditions. I'm really looking forward to the completed API and the finishing touches on the Phoenix.

Great feedback.  Those stats would be very consistent with my recent experience also.  In particular, you point out the need for launch at 30k or higher, and at Mach 1 or greater, with nose up at the time of launch.  Like you, using those parameters, my PK is also probably around 40%, certainly no higher (and probably lower to be honest).  That would be relative to targets out to about 45 - 50 nm, no further, and with a sweet spot closer to about 35 nm.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, I guess - for me, that PK is frustratingly low, particularly when you compare it to the performance of the AIM 120C right now which is flying well.  (Yes, I know that's not an apples to apples comparison).  

The thing I'm interested in though is the claim of 55 - 60 nm kills at angels 25.  That I have not seen, not even close.  My experience is that the phoenix bleeds speed very rapidly in launches below angels 28 or so.  To be candid, what I was hoping to hear is someone pipe in with some secret remedy, beginning with "Oh, what you need to do is choose [such and such a phoenix variant] and here are the launch parameters, and you'll be getting a high PK of 70% or greater at 60 nm again when launching at angels 25."  I live in hope.   

Edited May 22, 2022 by Redwing_204

[shrimpy_dikdik]

23 hours ago, Ikaros said:

Another 4 hours in multiplayer with me unable to hit a single target with the AIM-54. TWS Auto, STT, didn't even matter. I couldn't even survive long enough to get to the merge to use an AIM-7. 

I remember being able to destroy other players at 40/50 miles over a year ago. 

 

Feel your pain. It's been a long time since I've had an opponent have to evade my missiles let alone hit someone. Must be around 30 shots now with no succes. Seems most people on here are testing against AI which is fine if that's their thing but seems to be little about multiplayer. 

My F14 sadly is now retired. Having a lot of fun with other modules however and if I see an F14 on my EWR I know I'm in for an easy kill.

[Zpigman]

On 5/22/2022 at 6:13 AM, Redwing_204 said:

Could you post a tacview showing a 60 nm kill with the phoenix fired at angels 25?  That's not at all my current experience with those missiles.  At angels 30 or higher, and flying at better than Mach 1, I'm seeing the kill range closer to 35 nm.  Below about angels 28, the phoenix seems to bleed speed very quickly from what I've seen.  I'd be grateful if you'd post a tacview so that I can see your 60 nm kills with the phoenix fired at altitudes below angels 30 in particular (but frankly any kill at 60 nm with the phoenix right now would be interesting to see).   

 

Sadly, I don't have any tacviews of that as I don't use tacview. The shot at around 25 had me pitching up quite a bit and at time of launch about (started launch sequence at 60nm) 55nm. The target was an Ace level Mig-29, that upon pit-bull of missile went into a hard (his left) righthand notch and ended up outlasting the missiles battery just barely. The 2nd missile I fired at 45-50nm (don't remember which) was able to reach out and hit him, hovering around mach 1. Keep in mind this is all single player A.I testing with the Aim-54 mk47. 

[Comstedt86]

1 hour ago, Zpigman said:

Sadly, I don't have any tacviews of that as I don't use tacview. The shot at around 25 had me pitching up quite a bit and at time of launch about (started launch sequence at 60nm) 55nm. The target was an Ace level Mig-29, that upon pit-bull of missile went into a hard (his left) righthand notch and ended up outlasting the missiles battery just barely. The 2nd missile I fired at 45-50nm (don't remember which) was able to reach out and hit him, hovering around mach 1. Keep in mind this is all single player A.I testing with the Aim-54 mk47. 

Missile battery issue at 55nm? You can make 110-120nm shots at 45-50k at orbiting target (no additional closure) granted I tried as Fox 1 if that makes any difference ingame. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Comstedt86

[Callsign JoNay]

More testing today...

I can get my PK close to 100% if I close to 45-50 NM, assist my loft a little bit more, and launch from the high 30s at Mach 1+. Even with TGT Size Normal. Ace difficulty AI FWIW. I'm sure human opponents would be far more difficult to kill, but the missiles seem to track fine to me and hold energy pretty well. I still haven't seen one single mark-60 go stupid into space.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Callsign JoNay

[RustBelt]

So basically exactly how they’re supposed to be used?

I mean, does the Navy even have data about using the Phoenix in Air Quake engagements? I know Iran popped of quite a few of them in anger, but really what are the REAL WORD capabilities of this giant Chevy Suburban of a missile? It Obviously has limitations beyond just its size or they wouldn't have rushed to replace it with the Slammers  before the tomcat even retired. 
 

Is most pf the “problems” just user error because unlike a real Tomcat crew, players just don’t have the institutional knowledge to deploy this chonky-boy properly?  

[Redwing_204]

3 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

More testing today...

I can get my PK close to 100% if I close to 45-50 NM, assist my loft a little bit more, and launch from the high 30s at Mach 1+. Even with TGT Size Normal. Ace difficulty AI FWIW. I'm sure human opponents would be far more difficult to kill, but the missiles seem to track fine to me and hold energy pretty well. I still haven't seen one single mark-60 go stupid into space.

 

I had the opposite experience today.  Mk 60A, fired in TWS at 38,000 feet at Mach 1.25 at 35 nm at two MiG-29s set in easy mode.  Here’s the result, which is about typical in my recent experience - 

The first phoenix lost lock on the first MiG; the second phoenix killed the trailing MiG.  
Two more phoenixes fired at the lead MiG, the first immediately after the first phoenix lost its TWS lock.  That third missile also lost lock and sailed off into the void.  The last (fourth) phoenix was fired PAL inside 10 nm.  It missed, spoofed by chaff apparently.

I killed the last MiG with a Sparrow.

Four phoenixes launched in pretty much optimal conditions, and one kill recorded.  YMMV, of course.  But I’m pretty much through with the tomcat at this point.  There are other modules to fly.  
 

Wish you the best of luck with the phoenix.  

[lunaticfringe]

3 hours ago, RustBelt said:

So basically exactly how they’re supposed to be used?

I mean, does the Navy even have data about using the Phoenix in Air Quake engagements? I know Iran popped of quite a few of them in anger, but really what are the REAL WORD capabilities of this giant Chevy Suburban of a missile? It Obviously has limitations beyond just its size or they wouldn't have rushed to replace it with the Slammers  before the tomcat even retired. 
 

 

AMRAAM wasn't rushed into service; it was nearly ten years late to replace Sparrow.

 

3 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Is most pf the “problems” just user error because unlike a real Tomcat crew, players just don’t have the institutional knowledge to deploy this chonky-boy properly?  

 

The loft shouldn't be assisted.  The dot should be centered.  So yes- people are wasting shots by bad technique. 

[Callsign JoNay]

14 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

The loft shouldn't be assisted.  The dot should be centered.  So yes- people are wasting shots by bad technique. 

What dot? Are you talking about the inverted T steering cue? Isn't it stabilized to the aircraft's attitude? It doesn't matter if I'm lofting or not, the inverted T is always centered in the vertical axis on my end.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Isn't it stabilized to the aircraft's attitude?

Yes, it is, but it's used for correct azimuth launch. Nobody said it's a vertical cue.

[lunaticfringe]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Yes, it is, but it's used for correct azimuth launch. Nobody said it's a vertical cue.

 

He didn't say center the steering T in one axis; he said center the steering T precisely.

 

It's amusing to watch people argue that everything else is wrong when they're not following basic, correct guidance.  The machine is telling you what to do.  The SME is telling you what to do. 

"Lemme do what I want to do!" 

Fine.  Then don't come back and complain that it doesn't work, that the missile goes chasing after the nearest Spacelink constellation piece, etc.   

Center it.  Let the fire control do its thing.  Overlofting is killing your shot.  Being too slow is killing your shot.  It's not going to hit 100 percent of the time, because that's life and the other guy- whether it's AI or a human, gets a say.  But stop thinking that it can be "sweetened" with poor technique, and maximize it instead.  

 

Tacview-20220524-130055-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited May 24, 2022 by lunaticfringe