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AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion


IronMike

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2 hours ago, DSplayer said:

Can I get like an official document source for that? I need to yell at someone about the proximity fuse on the AIM-54 and how it should be around 15 meters.

I don't know which one top of my head, but it should be in one of the documents listed in the white paper as sources.

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A Tacview snip of a Phoenix missile test shoot.  This was in Mission Editor and not multiplayer.  Appears that the proximity fuse did not trigger.

 

Another observation in unnecessary energy shed by the Phoenix. The missile appears to be reacting to minute lift vector changes by the target. It used to do so to a larger degree but less so now. But nonetheless it still does and bleeds knots against bandits who are rolling about.

140ft.JPG

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52 minutes ago, Zaphael said:

A Tacview snip of a Phoenix missile test shoot.  This was in Mission Editor and not multiplayer.  Appears that the proximity fuse did not trigger.

 

Another observation in unnecessary energy shed by the Phoenix. The missile appears to be reacting to minute lift vector changes by the target. It used to do so to a larger degree but less so now. But nonetheless it still does and bleeds knots against bandits who are rolling about.

140ft.JPG

Indeed almost triple the range for proximity fuze needed.

We're hoping that some fixes we introduce with the coming patch, which we worked on together with ED, will eliminate the over-reactions even more.

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11 hours ago, Wingmate said:

Your missile is well outside the fifty feet required for the proximity fuse.

Oh! Okay if it's 50 feet its working normally. So far SP experience with the missile and it's kinematics are pretty okay. Its the AMRAAM community that's getting a bit of pain now.

Anyway, I have to say, ACE AI is pretty damn good at kinematically defeating the missiles now. And they only do so when they get the RWR indication. Quite happy with that actually.

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According to the detial tests in this video comparing the capability of different varients of AIM-54s in DCS. I just want to ask whether the speed of AIM-54C is really corrcect? IRL it is an improved model and I expected that with the same motor (MK47) to AIM-54A it should at least have similar speed. However, the AIM-54C is now significantlly slower than the AIM-54A (MK47) and make that long range shot worsen due to the lack of speed at terminal phase. Therefore, just want to know is that normal? Now it seems that AIM-54A MK60 is the best varant in DCS. 

Many thanks. 

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44 minutes ago, Max Mak said:

According to the detial tests in this video comparing the capability of different varients of AIM-54s in DCS. I just want to ask whether the speed of AIM-54C is really corrcect? IRL it is an improved model and I expected that with the same motor (MK47) to AIM-54A it should at least have similar speed. However, the AIM-54C is now significantlly slower than the AIM-54A (MK47) and make that long range shot worsen due to the lack of speed at terminal phase. Therefore, just want to know is that normal? Now it seems that AIM-54A MK60 is the best varant in DCS. 

Many thanks. 

In DCS the MK60 is by far the best yes.

 

From what I understand the C47 IRL uses different propellant and should have slightly higher ISP and thrust compared to the A47 along with all the improvements the new electronics upgrade gave it on guidance and other features. 

 

However in DCS it's definately the worst performing of all which is a bit strange even given the DCS engine limitations on guidance. It should atleast be on par kinematically to the A47. 

 

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1 hour ago, Max Mak said:

IRL it is an improved model and I expected that with the same motor (MK47) to AIM-54A it should at least have similar speed. However, the AIM-54C is now significantlly slower than the AIM-54A (MK47) and make that long range shot worsen due to the lack of speed at terminal phase.

One small correction, the 54C has the Mk47 mod 1 versus the 54A Mk47 mod 0, it's a slightly different motor with different fuel. It's also heavier than the 54A.

I did just type a wall of text argueing that the 54C should be slightly faster than the 54A in straight line shots. But honestly the difference in thrust to weight is only 1.1%. Considering they have the exact same body but the weight difference shows a 4% advantage to the 54A, it would make a lot of sense that the 54C loses a little bit more energy due to drag over the wing surfaces.

So in hindsight it's probably correct.

Without significant differences in seeker and guidance performance the 54C Mk47 is indeed the worst missile in the bunch from a simply kinematic perspective.


Edited by Noctrach
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5 hours ago, Max Mak said:

According to the detial tests in this video comparing the capability of different varients of AIM-54s in DCS. I just want to ask whether the speed of AIM-54C is really corrcect? IRL it is an improved model and I expected that with the same motor (MK47) to AIM-54A it should at least have similar speed. However, the AIM-54C is now significantlly slower than the AIM-54A (MK47) and make that long range shot worsen due to the lack of speed at terminal phase. Therefore, just want to know is that normal? Now it seems that AIM-54A MK60 is the best varant in DCS. 

Many thanks. 

This video shows exactly what many of us have been complaining about(at approx. 17:00). Can we please get this fixed?  

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Hello,

I'm sorry to say that I'm really at a loss at the moment. 
Before the last AI patch, the AIM54 was running fine. I could shoot from 40 thousand feet and 70 miles away and the enemies were mostly hit. Everything was fine.

After the last patch, the AIM 54 doesn't hit anything anymore! 

Either:
The enemies turn away early or make 4 to 5 g turns and the missile immediately loses all its energy and sinks to the ground.
Or: 
The enemies go on beam early and the missile loses its lock-on. 

If the missile loses lock, it should automatically fall back on the data from the mother radar. But this does not happen. The missile turns and tracks the target in a way that looks like an emergency stop. 
And in the end game it is again so un-maneuverable that it does not hit a 4g pulling target. 

All this means that I haven't been able to get a shot off with the AIM-54 for 2 weeks. Not against MiG21, MiG23, F-5. Even Su-24 are hardly to hit. With opponents like MiG29 or Flankers, I can only flee. 

I don't know what happened. But Eagle Dynamics has turned one of the most successful fighters in history into one of the most worthless modules!

Because:

AIM 54 - hits nothing
AIM 7 - hits nothing
AIM 9 - hits but you also get hit.

What a disgrace! 
Cheers
TOM

PS: I am firmly convinced that HEATBLUR has done a top job. I love this module - for me, the best module in the DCS world! That's why my disappointment is so big right now. 


Edited by TOMCATZ
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1 hour ago, TOMCATZ said:

Hello,

I'm sorry to say that I'm really at a loss at the moment. 
Before the last AI patch, the AIM54 was running fine. I could shoot from 40 thousand feet and 70 miles away and the enemies were mostly hit. Everything was fine.

After the last patch, the AIM 54 doesn't hit anything anymore! 

Either:
The enemies turn away early or make 4 to 5 g turns and the missile immediately loses all its energy and sinks to the ground.
Or: 
The enemies go on beam early and the missile loses its lock-on. 

If the missile loses lock, it should automatically fall back on the data from the mother radar. But this does not happen. The missile turns and tracks the target in a way that looks like an emergency stop. 
And in the end game it is again so un-maneuverable that it does not hit a 4g pulling target. 

All this means that I haven't been able to get a shot off with the AIM-54 for 2 weeks. Not against MiG21, MiG23, F-5. Even Su-24 are hardly to hit. With opponents like MiG29 or Flankers, I can only flee. 

I don't know what happened. But Eagle Dynamics has turned one of the most successful fighters in history into one of the most worthless modules!

Because:

AIM 54 - hits nothing
AIM 7 - hits nothing
AIM 9 - hits but you also get hit.

What a disgrace! 
Cheers
TOM

PS: I am firmly convinced that HEATBLUR has done a top job. I love this module - for me, the best module in the DCS world! That's why my disappointment is so big right now. 

I hear you Tom, and I understand where you are coming from. But may I turn your attention away from the missile or AI being at fault, to yourself? Now, please do not get me wrong, this is by no means meant to be a smartass. But it is very, very important if we want to stay adaptive and make the tools work provided to us. Take a look at the tacview attached in my reply here (I posted it couple days ago above already), it's me going against 4xSu27 all set to ace.

Flip the coin for a second and imagine what would you do if you were that flanker AI? Would you not do anything you can to defeat such a shot, even more so knowing it was shot at you from a huge distance, aka, the missile being an easy toy of low energy inbound. Personally, I laugh such shots away, online, against phoenix or amraam alike.

This is really with the best intent, adapting a mindset where you always blame yourself, and yourself alone, is where you start improving and advancing. I force myself to do so, and once I understood this fundamental lesson, is where in DCS I started getting good. I mean, I know how this sounds. Mumbojumbo blabla. But I swear by it, like a psalm from the bible and it is my true and only gospel for BVR. I really, really strongly recommend changing the focus there. And ofc, the tacview attached is a culmination of years, decades even of flying in DCS. But also a level of skill that does not need that long to be achieved. What it does need though, is to not blame anything but your own approach. With an AI that is better, distances will get cut, naturally and thankfully so. Else you need to keep the AI on average, if you play more casually, which btw is completely fine. In the end, you primarily want to keep it fun for yourself, casual or not.

All this said, the next patch will introduce a set of improvements to the AIM-54 which will improve the guidance and smoothen the transition, hopefully help with the lofting issue and adjust induced drag to a more realistic level. But careful: the difference will still be minimal, the missile will still adhere to the CFD as is, its issues with high drag, etc. will remain - and thus it will still need to be employed accordingly when using against skilled players or AI alike.

If you want, Tom, post your tacviews, and we can start looking into your approach and maybe learn something along the way. 🙂

 

4xSU27 Ace.zip.acmi


Edited by IronMike
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1 hour ago, TOMCATZ said:

Hello,

I'm sorry to say that I'm really at a loss at the moment. 
Before the last AI patch, the AIM54 was running fine. I could shoot from 40 thousand feet and 70 miles away and the enemies were mostly hit. Everything was fine.

Your problem is you're expecting kill shots on maneuvering targets from 70 nm. You need to adjust your expectations. At 40k try 40-50nm shots. At 30k try 30nm. At 20k try 20nm. At 10 and below try 10nm. If you loft 15-deg you can squeeze a bit more out of the guideline, maybe an extra 5nm at the lower alts and 15nm at the higher ones.

With the MK60 I have a PK of about 75% or more if I follow these guidelines. My missiles have around Mach 2 at the moment of impact at all these alts+distances, assuming ace difficulty targets that start hot and Split-S at the pitbull. You can eat Flankers and Fulcrums alive if you follow these steps. Just beware of their Mach 4.6 R-27 ETs and their Mach 5.5 ERs from 15nm and closer. You have to shoot 54s active off the rail and turn cold immediately to stay safe from those bastards. (Mach 5.5...ED, really?)

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2 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

Hello,

I'm sorry to say that I'm really at a loss at the moment. 
Before the last AI patch, the AIM54 was running fine. I could shoot from 40 thousand feet and 70 miles away and the enemies were mostly hit. Everything was fine.

After the last patch, the AIM 54 doesn't hit anything anymore! 

Either:
The enemies turn away early or make 4 to 5 g turns and the missile immediately loses all its energy and sinks to the ground.

You will find just about any missile can be countered by a high g manuever/split s. The new ai patch introduced better reaction to threats and improved tactics. Think of it this way do u always get hit by the ai's missile? no your first instinct immediate defensive. The new ai simply got better at reacting the Phoenix has not been changed at all, you will need to launch alot closer than u normally would. Hopefully the new guidance and tweaks can help it improve .

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One of the problems with missiles right now it seems that they will pull beyond their seeker gimble limit causing an immediate break lock, that happened a few times in the testing vid above.  Additionally split S wise I know that the AIM-7F/M had anti-split S logic.  What this exactly this entails is not publicly available but it's not hard to to predict what it does as there's really only one logical possibility.  It's almost certainly as simple as an acceleration damper that is enabled so the missile doesn't over pull but stays above the target.  Maybe not relevant for the 54A but the 54C i'd be shocked if there wasn't something similar.  Maybe something to consider looking into guidance wise ontop of the missile pulling in the the loft instead of following a low G ballistic trajectory.

 

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I really appreciate your kind words. 

I have mentioned on other forums that the new AI is exhibiting behavior that is not correct. When even a "trainee" shows perfect scores in the right time and breaks every lock while still being aggressive, that is a top pilot with years of combat experience and not a rookie. But in DCS now, everyone and even the worst aircraft and least experienced pilots dogging the AIM54 like pros. So yes ... 

I am very grateful for the coming updates for the AIM54's. And yes - I would change my tactics again. But I will not change my decision making and start gambling just because the AI now behaves like players in hyperlobby. 

 

So - my Tacview I uploaded here shows a typical day now... Yes- Old tactics against new AI. So I have to find the golden key...

 

Cheers and thanks

TOM

Tacview-TimeTrimmed-20220524-200231-DCS-Through_The_Inferno_PG_v3.zip.acmi

Born to fly but forced to work.

 

TomFliegerKLEIN.gif

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19 minutes ago, TOMCATZ said:


I really appreciate your kind words. 

I have mentioned on other forums that the new AI is exhibiting behavior that is not correct. When even a "trainee" shows perfect scores in the right time and breaks every lock while still being aggressive, that is a top pilot with years of combat experience and not a rookie. But in DCS now, everyone and even the worst aircraft and least experienced pilots dogging the AIM54 like pros. So yes ... 

I am very grateful for the coming updates for the AIM54's. And yes - I would change my tactics again. But I will not change my decision making and start gambling just because the AI now behaves like players in hyperlobby. 

 

So - my Tacview I uploaded here shows a typical day now... Yes- Old tactics against new AI. So I have to find the golden key...

 

Cheers and thanks

TOM

Tacview-TimeTrimmed-20220524-200231-DCS-Through_The_Inferno_PG_v3.zip.acmi 4.44 MB · 0 downloads

Are you trolling me? 😏

AI effectiveness is an ED patch. I find them more entertaining now honestly. They actually have to honour the threats my Phoenixes present to them.

Tactically, you can employ your Phoenixes at them at 70nmi, but these would be low pK shots. Only reason you want to do this is to disrupt their OODA cycle, or deny the airspace if they are trying to get in with anti-ship missiles. Better make sure your Phoenixes are diving top down in the end game. 

But to really kill with the Phoenix, you have to get closer. 40 miles is the earliest you can shoot above 30000ft. pK is about 0.5 there as bandit can split S or notch.

My take is shoot at 40 any way, and drive straight in to attempt a PD-STT follow up at 10 miles (active shot) if he doesn't Split S. 6 Miles follow up with a Sparrow shot which takes a different lead pursuit trajectory. Target will be sandwiched by a Phoenix and Sparrow.

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Trolling? No - 

First - you need experience and training to do what the rookie AI can do right now. And they do it in the dark, in the clouds and everywhere and perfect. Thats not realistic but acarde. 

Second- the AI is flying still into the ground. Entertaining - indeed. 

Third - less then 30 percent of pilots would do <profanity> like that in RL. 

But yah - I will try. 

Born to fly but forced to work.

 

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If "split-S when RWR starts bitching" is now considered an advanced missile defense then I don't wish to imagine the noise if the AI ever starts to employ sensible BVR tactics.

e.g. taking an offset, or a pre-emptive notch as part of their timeline, setting up a grinder, pincer, altitude/azimuth split, etc.

The AI is a step in the right direction, but there's so many more creative ways to spoil your BVR shots... 😉

 

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1 hour ago, TOMCATZ said:


I really appreciate your kind words. 

I have mentioned on other forums that the new AI is exhibiting behavior that is not correct. When even a "trainee" shows perfect scores in the right time and breaks every lock while still being aggressive, that is a top pilot with years of combat experience and not a rookie. But in DCS now, everyone and even the worst aircraft and least experienced pilots dogging the AIM54 like pros. So yes ... 

I am very grateful for the coming updates for the AIM54's. And yes - I would change my tactics again. But I will not change my decision making and start gambling just because the AI now behaves like players in hyperlobby. 

 

So - my Tacview I uploaded here shows a typical day now... Yes- Old tactics against new AI. So I have to find the golden key...

 

Cheers and thanks

TOM

Tacview-TimeTrimmed-20220524-200231-DCS-Through_The_Inferno_PG_v3.zip.acmi 4.44 MB · 1 download

Looking at your first fight, you did well imo. You killed both, and yeah you had to use your entire arsenal, because the AI was actively defending. The shot on the cold AI was a waste though, simply in such case continue presssing and shoot when he is about to recommit. Questionable were also the double taps. The phoenix is no double tap missile, unless you are in the NEZ, and even then only because of netcode/warp/lag, maybe. I think if you would have allowed to close more before the first shots, you could have saved more missiles, but hey, you killed them, means a job well done overall.

The second engagement though, against F5s, a total waste of all your 6 phoenixes. I mean, they are F5s. They still can defend though (especially long range shots that bled all their energy already), what they cannot do is engage you as well as you engaged them, like at all. If you had waited to 15nm or less, you would have likely bagged all six in one go. You could have likely gunned them all down fwiw even.

Here, check my tacviews below, I tried to (roughly) recreate both your scenarios, assuming on Through the Inferno "normal" means trained and easy means average AI skill, so set accordingly, roughly matching altitudes, etc. But even on ace I would have played that almost exactly the same. It is an F5, the only reason it exists is for you to pick your teeth with and get out the scraps from the flankers you previously had for lunch lol. They are nothing to you in a Tomcat. (In BVR I mean, in BFM the F5 is a worthy sparing partner.)

against 6 F5 mixed trained and average.zip.acmi against 2 SU33 trained.zip.acmi


Edited by IronMike
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2 minutes ago, IronMike said:

I mean, they are F5s

I think this hits the nail on the head for a lot of Phoenix discussions. Contemporary threats for the Phoenix would've been anything from heaters and short range SARH threats in the early days, to R-27ER in its last decade. Threats and defences have changed massively since the 80s.

The fact it can still compete with the 120C (a missile that went into service nearly 3 decades later) under certain parameters, is crazy enough.

Employ at parameters that match the threat you're fighting. Don't drive inside 40 miles against a high altitude AMRAAM platform, but likewise don't risk wasting your Phoenixes on daytime WVR fighters by launching at 60.

 

I'm anxiously waiting to see what the guidance tweaks will do for terminal energy loss rates, but most of the shots I see are also just... "ambitious"

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Okay - Yes. I tried your advices.  Shorter range (I really do not like it but ...)

Feels more like AMRAAM shooting to me. But yes - 30NM`s works well against fighters, so .... All I can say is thanks for this fantastic support!!!! 🤙

Have a great bandit day and cheers

TOM

(I still think the AI is wrong, but ... who cares). 🙈

 

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