TLTeo Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 Maybe I mis-remember the symbology, but I thought in TWS:A the T was related to the scan volume rather than launch parameters (like in STT)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 48 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said: He didn't say center the steering T in one axis; he said center the steering T precisely. It's amusing to watch people argue that everything else is wrong when they're not following basic, correct guidance. The machine is telling you what to do. The SME is telling you what to do. "Lemme do what I want to do!" Fine. Then don't come back and complain that it doesn't work, that the missile goes chasing after the nearest Spacelink constellation piece, etc. Center it. Let the fire control do its thing. Overlofting is killing your shot. Being too slow is killing your shot. It's not going to hit 100 percent of the time, because that's life and the other guy- whether it's AI or a human, gets a say. But stop thinking that it can be "sweetened" with poor technique, and maximize it instead. Tacview-20220524-130055-DCS.zip.acmi 120.34 kB · 2 downloads The steering cue does not offset for elevation, only azimuth. It is stabilized vertically and always centered no matter what your vertical orientation is relative to the target. So no, in this case the airplane is not telling you what to do. Unless the steering cue is modeled incorrectly? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticfringe Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 3 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said: The steering cue does not offset for elevation, only azimuth. It is stabilized vertically and always centered no matter what your vertical orientation is relative to the target. So no, in this case the airplane is not telling you what to do. Unless the steering cue is modeled incorrectly? There's this thing you can do with Phoenix; it's called STT. The ASE compensation for the TWS loft profile is not accounted for in STT. You always center the dot on the VDI. Doesn't matter which mode you're in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikaros Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 (edited) On 5/24/2022 at 12:21 PM, lunaticfringe said: It's not going to hit 100 percent of the time, because that's life and the other guy- whether it's AI or a human, gets a say. The problem is.... it doesn't hit 100% of the time in multiplayer for me. I've fired over 100 this past week while using TWS auto in the Growling Sidewinder server and not even 1 hit. Edited May 26, 2022 by Ikaros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snappy Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, lunaticfringe said: There's this thing you can do with Phoenix; it's called STT. The ASE compensation for the TWS loft profile is not accounted for in STT. You always center the dot on the VDI. Doesn't matter which mode you're in. Can you please explain this further? I think what Jonay meant was, that the inverted T will be always be centered in the vertical axis, regardless of your actual pitch attitude, as in it seems to provide steering in the lateral axis only. Edited May 25, 2022 by Snappy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustBelt Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 8:00 PM, lunaticfringe said: AMRAAM wasn't rushed into service; it was nearly ten years late to replace Sparrow. The loft shouldn't be assisted. The dot should be centered. So yes- people are wasting shots by bad technique. I mean, for the Pentagon in the 80’s only 10 years behind is lightning fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronMike Posted May 26, 2022 Author Share Posted May 26, 2022 (edited) I went on the Growling Sidewinder server yesterday, I only had 30 minutes, hence the flight was short, but bagged a nice kill with the phoenix, couple shots turned out to become defensive shots instead of offensive, which was fine though, it kept me alive, and prolly some others on my side, too. Surprisingly, after reading how much everyone is giving up on it online, I saw at least 8 other Tomcats on both red and blue. In 24/7 servers naturally there is less teamwork going on and many are lonewolfing, so ppl push beyond the reasonable, furballs happen, etc, but if you put the Tomcat in a team, and place it where it belongs, you can still do some magic in this aircraft, and be deadly, and most and above all: feared for your distance. Edited May 26, 2022 by IronMike 4 1 Heatblur Simulations Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage. http://www.heatblur.com/ https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comstedt86 Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 (edited) On 5/25/2022 at 1:40 AM, Ikaros said: The problem is.... it doesn't hit 100% of the time in multiplayer for me. I've fired over 100 this past week in the Growling Sidewinder server and not even 1 hit. They all weren't TWS auto either, it was also in STT and PAL. If you fired 100 Phoenixes and all missed something must be wrong. How did they "miss"? Defeated through loss of energy, trashed tracks, notched or did your targets get shot down? Edited May 26, 2022 by Comstedt86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikaros Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 7 hours ago, IronMike said: I went on the Growling Sidewinder server yesterday, I only had 30 minutes, hence the flight was short, but bagged a nice kill with the phoenix, couple shots turned out to become defensive shots instead of offensive, which was fine though, it kept me alive, and prolly some others on my side, too. Surprisingly, after reading how much everyone is giving up on it online, I saw at least 8 other Tomcats on both red and blue. In 24/7 servers naturally there is less teamwork going on and many are lonewolfing, so ppl push beyond the reasonable, furballs happen, etc, but if you put the Tomcat in a team, and place it where it belongs, you can still do some magic in this aircraft, and be deadly, and most and above all: feared for your distance. Hey Mike, thanks for taking the time to investigate. I did manage to get a few kills in PAL mode over the past couple of days so that is working at least. I need to update my old post where I said it wasn't working. The majority of the over 100 Phoenixes I fired beforehand were in TWS auto though. I don't know what's going wrong there for me but they just won't connect. Obviously other players can defeat them but it seems weird I didn't down at least one aircraft. I support the missiles until they become pitbull (16 seconds or less?) as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprak74 Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 I've been having the same issues also. i've been able to hit nothing with TWS. I've had no luck being able to hit anything outside of 20 miles the reason for this because when it goes pitbull no matter what target size, players and AI go straight into a split s or defensive maneuver and defeat it just by turning away from it. Not sure if the kinematics match up to how it operates In real life but i understand why ppl say its was only used against bombers and large aircraft. No matter what altitude im at or speed, i haven't been able to get a splash on a single thing using TWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustBelt Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 (edited) Another thing to consider is when not in Air-quake, making an enemy go cold and bug out is as much a success as a kill. The primary goal as the plane and weapon system is actually designed is denial not necessarily burning metal. Them NOT getting a kill or a shack is just as good an outcome as them in a crater. Edited May 26, 2022 by RustBelt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarthogOsl Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 (edited) So fwiw, I mostly play PvE on Through the Inferno (Marianas), and I'm getting maybe 50% Pk with the Phoenix, typically from 50-70nm, mostly TWS shots. That said, this is against "low" to "moderate" enemies on Through the Inferno (whatever those threat levels actually mean...not sure how it correlates to the AI skill level). The low/moderate enemies (as TTI defines them) tend to do a break turn on the 54 going active, but the Phoenix can usually get them, provided it doesn't go chasing the moon. However, against the higher skill AI on that server ("extreme") it's different. They now do more of a split-S and dive, not just a break turn. Several times I've seen the Phoenix get with .5 miles of the target in a vertical dive, and the AI slowly pulls away going straight down. Although sometimes the AI will flight right into the water trying to escape. Edited May 26, 2022 by WarthogOsl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctrach Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) Im not sure what parameters you folks are firing with, but expecting consistent kills on fighters outside of 25 miles at 30k or below is just kinda pushing it. Thats already nearly 30% further than an amraam. If not for kinetics... then even just for the AWG-9 to be comfortably used against fighters. You have to imagine... 16 head-on TTI means about 11-12 seconds from registering the missile warning to actual impact. That is more than enough time to complete a split-S or sliceback, which will do the following: cash altitude for speed on the defending fighter drain energy on your phoenix to steer to new intercept course Increase the TTI through aspect change Your shot needs to have a solid energy advantage over the target when that manoeuvre ends to reliably complete that intercept. A high energy fighter will succeed in kinematically defeating a shot like that most of the time. Thats a kind of Rne expectation you can only put on something like a Meteor or 120D. As others have mentioned though, those long shots still give you a good tactical advantage. Now you have a running adversary which means its time to switch to STT and mercilessly run them down. Edited May 27, 2022 by Noctrach 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggus Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 I've just reported a bug that seems to be related to the way that ED-developed modules detect TWS phoenix launches that might explain why some people are having mixed results. There are some gaping holes in my testing though, as I've only tested them on Caucasus (and PG for the Viper), and I haven't been able to arrange to have a human shoot at me yet. The Hornet, the Viper and the A-10C2 all detect a TWS phoenix of any variety fired by AI immediately. As far as their RWRs are concerned, those missiles are hot off the rail at any range. I have not been able to test with a player flown F-14, but I would not be surprised if it was true of player launched 54s too. If any of you folks reading this post could possibly test that out, it would be appreciated. There are other ED modules I do not own that I cannot test, so the bug may also be present in modules I haven't been able to report on. I can say that if you are flying a Mirage 2000C or F-14, the RWR gives you a warning at the expected ranges when the phoenix is meant to go active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comstedt86 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, Biggus said: I've just reported a bug that seems to be related to the way that ED-developed modules detect TWS phoenix launches that might explain why some people are having mixed results. There are some gaping holes in my testing though, as I've only tested them on Caucasus (and PG for the Viper), and I haven't been able to arrange to have a human shoot at me yet. The Hornet, the Viper and the A-10C2 all detect a TWS phoenix of any variety fired by AI immediately. As far as their RWRs are concerned, those missiles are hot off the rail at any range. I have not been able to test with a player flown F-14, but I would not be surprised if it was true of player launched 54s too. If any of you folks reading this post could possibly test that out, it would be appreciated. There are other ED modules I do not own that I cannot test, so the bug may also be present in modules I haven't been able to report on. I can say that if you are flying a Mirage 2000C or F-14, the RWR gives you a warning at the expected ranges when the phoenix is meant to go active. AFAIK AI only fires in STT which would explain RWR warnings. Edited May 27, 2022 by Comstedt86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggus Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Comstedt86 said: AFAIK AI only fires in STT which would explain RWR warnings. You are incorrect. This is no longer true. To test this, I used four ship formations as the victims for the AI F-14. In the pic below, a single AI F-14B has rippled four -54s starting from around 35nm. Immediate warning on RWR. Edited May 27, 2022 by Biggus Added pic to support claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikaros Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Well I noticed tonight when I fired in TWS at other players my Phoenixes would climb steeply to 120,000 feet and then dive near the target area running out of speed and having no energy to do anything. At least that's what I've been able to notice so far. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL0083 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 11 hours ago, Noctrach said: .As others have mentioned though, those long shots still give you a good tactical advantage. Now you have a running adversary which means its time to switch to STT and mercilessly run them down. What advantage?The advantage in score punishment from incoming Fox3!? FUNNY!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCooter Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 13 hours ago, Ikaros said: Well I noticed tonight when I fired in TWS at other players my Phoenixes would climb steeply to 120,000 feet and then dive near the target area running out of speed and having no energy to do anything. At least that's what I've been able to notice so far. Every shot I have taken that lofts does this straight up thing and then dives at nothing, and then pitches up and self-destructs. If you can manage to fire within parameters where it doesn't loft, the missiles will track just fine. Why this is still a problem is beyond me, and is making me hold off on buying any more modules. It feels like a big middle finger at this point. I don't care how many of you claim it's working just fine, it's not and hasn't been for quite some time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprak74 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 3 hours ago, HarryCooter said: Every shot I have taken that lofts does this straight up thing and then dives at nothing, and then pitches up and self-destructs. If you can manage to fire within parameters where it doesn't loft, the missiles will track just fine. Why this is still a problem is beyond me, and is making me hold off on buying any more modules. It feels like a big middle finger at this point. I don't care how many of you claim it's working just fine, it's not and hasn't been for quite some time. Lofting Logic is a bit weird atm. Everyone's just waiting for the phoenix to make it on the long so waited.... API. If your phoenix goes straight up to 120k feet that's pretty much over lofting it. What parameters are u doing ur launches at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panny Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 8 hours ago, HarryCooter said: Every shot I have taken that lofts does this straight up thing and then dives at nothing, and then pitches up and self-destructs. If you can manage to fire within parameters where it doesn't loft, the missiles will track just fine. Why this is still a problem is beyond me, and is making me hold off on buying any more modules. It feels like a big middle finger at this point. I don't care how many of you claim it's working just fine, it's not and hasn't been for quite some time. This sounds more like user error than anything else; without specific information hard to guess what went wrong. That said, it sounds like the track became extrapolated 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCooter Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 16 hours ago, sprak74 said: Lofting Logic is a bit weird atm. Everyone's just waiting for the phoenix to make it on the long so waited.... API. If your phoenix goes straight up to 120k feet that's pretty much over lofting it. What parameters are u doing ur launches at? I have tried this countless times and ways(literally 100's). I have maintained TWS tracks up until merge and fired at various speeds, altitudes, angles, and distances for both me and the bogeys. I have also tried the same thing with STT lock. That's why I am specifically pointing at lofting being the problem. If I fire within parameters where they don't loft, they perform as expected. I am not new to this module. I have had it for years and had no issues until they started screwing with lofting. Again, I only play beta and multiplayer. So maybe the problem is isolated there. I wouldn't know. Either way, it's a very real problem that more than a few of us have been complaining about for a while now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 57 minutes ago, HarryCooter said: I have tried this countless times and ways(literally 100's). I have maintained TWS tracks up until merge and fired at various speeds, altitudes, angles, and distances for both me and the bogeys. I have also tried the same thing with STT lock. That's why I am specifically pointing at lofting being the problem. If I fire within parameters where they don't loft, they perform as expected. I am not new to this module. I have had it for years and had no issues until they started screwing with lofting. Again, I only play beta and multiplayer. So maybe the problem is isolated there. I wouldn't know. Either way, it's a very real problem that more than a few of us have been complaining about for a while now. Do your missiles work properly in single player? Or do they loft into space there too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberst Struppi Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 (edited) I´am experiencing weird missile behavior at the moment. The Tacview attached showing a F14B with AIM7MH an PH54MK60A in an engagement with a human rio against a MIG 23 in a nose hot engagement. I´am sorting what we did: - Fired a Phoenix on 29k feet @ 28nm range to the bandit in PD STT We did keep up the Vc as high as possible. The bandit was going defensive until the missile was under 10nm range (like it was pitbull). Totally stupid. Missile lost obviously guidance even under constant PD STT lock. Lock was steady on the AWG9. - Launched a AIM7MH at 11nm in PD STT due to high Vc. Missile lofted, kept bandit defensive and was gone - Launched FOX2 (caged with SEAM) @ 4,8nm range Vc ~550kts. Missile steered without any reason away into the trees F14 vs. MIG23 FAIL.zip.acmi Tacview is attached. Thats just one single Tacview. I can deliver more if you want to. Fact is that you right at the moment have to spend 3-4 missile to get even the easiest bandit down. Maybe you´re ending up in a merge. It has become impossible with the CAT to fight in BVR. Yeah, you can go for a launch and leave tactic. Missile will be evaded by a 100%. Then you recommit, launch again and the same will happen again. Its a game of "who´s running first out of gas". BVR in the CAT is not possible at the moment if you ask me. Edited May 29, 2022 by Oberst Struppi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
near_blind Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Your Phoenix flew directly into a chaff bundle. The Sparrow probably did some stupid DCS-ism like the missile seeker got notched or had a panic attack due to glint, or some other exaggerated fantasy. Your AIM-9 veering off corresponds to the target releasing a pair of flares. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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