Bringing ECM pods to BVR or not

[SCPanda]

Given how ED currently models ECM environemnt in DCS and how the ECM pods on the F-16 work, it just seems to me that bringing a jammer to BVR is almost useless against a human pilot (or AI) flying jets with fox 3 capabilities. 

In modes 1 and 2, aka self protection jamming modes, your jammer won't transmit until hostile fox 3 goes active, which is already too late. 

In mode 3, aka barrier jamming mode, you cannot use your radar. However, someone mentioned we can flick the switch to mode 1 after making the jammer transmit in mode 3, and then we can use the radar:

I tried doing this in the previous OB patch (the patch before ALQ-184 long was introduced), it worked. I could use barrier/active jamming and use my FCR at the same time, but it came with a 40% radar detection range penalty, which I could work with, it allowed me to lock targets as far as from about 20-30 miles. 

However, in the current patch (after ALQ-184 long was introduced), I found the same methods does not work anymore. While using active jamming and enabling my FCR by flick the switch to mode 1 (or 2), my FCR is scanning but it cannot detect anything at all, not even a large Mig-31 AI flying above 20k straight at me. (Edit: I also tried using just SPJ in modes 1 and 2 when the enemy is trying to STT me, FCR still cannot detect anything) So when the bandit fires its fox 1 or fox 3 at me, my FCR is still like "Nope, cannot see anything at all..." All I can do is turn off my jammer to make the radar work. It seems the 40% radar penalty is 100% now, which makes using ECM pods in BVR useless unless you are not trying to engage the target and running away I guess. IDK if this is a bug or not.

So I wonder, has anyone be able to utlize ECM pods in BVR engagements in the current patch? Any recommended tactics? 

Another set of questions I have is, why does F-16's FCR gets a 40% detection range penalty when using ECM? Is the 40% penalty how it works in real life? In other words, is this realistic or not? Most importantly, why it's only the F-16 that gets this ECM penalty? But other jets like F-15 and F-18 (I'm not sure about the Hornet, correct me if I am wrong), don't get this penalty? I mean the F-15 can just stupidly turn its jammer on and use its radar just fine. If we are talking about realism here, why does it only apply to the F-16? 

Edited February 7, 2022 by SCPanda

[Kilo]

7 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Another set of questions I have is, why does F-16's FCR gets a 40% detection range penalty when using ECM? Is the 40% penalty how it works in real life? In other words, is this realistic or not? 

That's mostly a game mechanic. The real radar has a number of channels (11, iirc) that it can transmit on (that it can alternate between so that it won't interfere with other radars).
In Radar priority mode, the ECM pod won't transmit on the same channel as your radar, even if it would need to do that to jam the enemy.
In Jammer priority mode, the ECM pod will transmit on whichever channel it wants (or needs) and the radar will just change its own channel to move out of the way.

Quote

Most importantly, why it's only the F-16 that gets this ECM penalty?

Well, it currently has one of the most advanced ECM simulation as of yet. I'm guessing it will come to other aircraft at a later date.

[Blinky.ben]

8 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Most importantly, why it's only the F-16 that gets this ECM penalty?

The same question can be asked as to why only the F-16 has to align MAV’s.

[Raptor9]

9 hours ago, SCPanda said:

why it's only the F-16 that gets this ECM penalty? But other jets like F-15 and F-18 (I'm not sure about the Hornet, correct me if I am wrong), don't get this penalty? I mean the F-15 can just stupidly turn its jammer on and use its radar just fine. If we are talking about realism here, why does it only apply to the F-16? 

It's not. The Hornet's ASPJ shuts down its radar completely when jamming.

1 hour ago, Blinky.ben said:

The same question can be asked as to why only the F-16 has to align MAV’s.

Could be that F-18 and/or A-10C ground crews have sort of alignment procedure they can perform on the ground prior to the pilot hopping into the jet, could be the ED SME's for the F-18 and/or A-10C couldn't provide the data to simulate the process, or perhaps it's just something they wanted to add some more realism to versus in the past they didn't care to. Who knows.

[Northstar98]

11 hours ago, SCPanda said:

In modes 1 and 2, aka self protection jamming modes, your jammer won't transmit until hostile fox 3 goes active, which is already too late. 

In mode 3, aka barrier jamming mode, you cannot use your radar. However, someone mentioned we can flick the switch to mode 1 after making the jammer transmit in mode 3, and then we can use the radar:

The deception modes (self-protection) only work against AI RADARs AFAIK, not player aircraft (besides the Mirage 2000, which is the only module with a suitably high fidelity RADAR to model it properly in the first place, though with the Mirage, it treats all jammers as track-breakers when in its PSIC (STT) mode) facilitates deception jamming or track breaking on their RADARs (F-5E might be an exception, where noise jamming prevents the range gate from functioning, causing it to drop locks).

Mode 3 is currently modelled as a noise jammer, there aren't things like frequencies in DCS, even if it was purely a class (besides the Viggen's RWR, though this is more of an emulation), and every RADAR and jammer is treated as effectively being all on the same frequency (so it's more spot jamming/noise).

The good thing about mode 3 though, is that most player aircraft facilitate the effects of it (i.e strobes/AoJ contacts and range denial), beyond the burn-through range, Fox 3s won't loft owing to no ranging information.

 

The best tactic I'd use personally, is mode 3, turning it on when you expect the enemy's RADAR to get a skin return from your aircraft (if you do it before you'll give away your bearing, if you do it when or after, their RADAR would've been able to resolve you anyway).

The thing to be wary of though are HOJ capable missiles.

And I imagine real tactics would probably involve dedicated EW aircraft acting as a stand-off/escort jammer, covering your package, without relying on your own ECM systems.

The only other thing I'll mention here though, is there are a few images of F-16s (though different variants, blocks and operators), which at least appear to depict an air-to-air loadout, with an ECM pod equipped, presumably this is done for a reason.

Spoiler

Only thing here is the HTS pod.

 

Here we also have LANTIRN.

 

 

11 hours ago, SCPanda said:

I tried doing this in the previous OB patch (the patch before ALQ-184 long was introduced), it worked. I could use barrier/active jamming and use my FCR at the same time, but it came with a 40% radar detection range penalty, which I could work with, it allowed me to lock targets as far as from about 20-30 miles.

However, in the current patch (after ALQ-184 long was introduced), I found the same methods does not work anymore. While using active jamming and enabling my FCR by flick the switch to mode 1 (or 2), my FCR is scanning but it cannot detect anything at all, not even a large Mig-31 AI flying above 20k straight at me. (Edit: I also tried using just SPJ in modes 1 and 2 when the enemy is trying to STT me, FCR still cannot detect anything) So when the bandit fires its fox 1 or fox 3 at me, my FCR is still like "Nope, cannot see anything at all..." All I can do is turn off my jammer to make the radar work. It seems the 40% radar penalty is 100% now, which makes using ECM pods in BVR useless unless you are not trying to engage the target and running away I guess. IDK if this is a bug or not.

The mode 3 and flicking it to mode 1 so that you can noise jam with the RADAR sounds like a bug/exploit in the current implementation.

I'm not sure how the real AN/ALQ-184(V)11 works, but if it's any more complex than it is now (which it almost certainly is) DCS doesn't model EW or RADARs in enough fidelity to simulate it.

11 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Another set of questions I have is, why does F-16's FCR gets a 40% detection range penalty when using ECM? Is the 40% penalty how it works in real life? In other words, is this realistic or not?

No idea, it might have something to do with power requirements, the jammer will interfere if its on the same frequency.

This information is going to be classified though.

11 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Most importantly, why it's only the F-16 that gets this ECM penalty? But other jets like F-15 and F-18 (I'm not sure about the Hornet, correct me if I am wrong), don't get this penalty? I mean the F-15 can just stupidly turn its jammer on and use its radar just fine. If we are talking about realism here, why does it only apply to the F-16?

Because only the F-16 and F/A-18 have ECM systems that are higher fidelity, and the F/A-18 currently disables its RADAR when the jammer is transmitting (missing ECM/RADAR priority).

For the rest of DCS, EW as a whole is heavily simplified, and apart from a minority of cases (namely the Mirage 2000) so are RADARs.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Northstar98

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

The deception modes (self-protection) only work against AI RADARs AFAIK, no player aircraft

Mode 1 and 2 do work against other player aircraft as well. They are not deception modes, as DCS doesn't simulate jamming modes on the jamming aircraft. Modes 1 and 2 just set the ECM flag to true if the aircraft gets locked up by another radar. This causes the other radar to loose lock if the distance is still great enough (outside of burn through distance).
I tested this with a buddy, and his radar always lost lock on my aircraft after a brief moment when I had jammer mode 1 or 2 active. You can achieve the exact same effect in mode 3, if you manually activate the jammer once your aircraft get locked up.

I know you love these different ECM mode terminologies, but EW in DCS is much simpler and they don't really apply here (at least not on the jamming side of things).

Edited February 7, 2022 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

They are not deception modes, as DCS doesn't simulate jamming modes on the jamming aircraft.

Modes 1 and 2 should be deception modes, as that's what track breaking (which is what DCS is at least trying to emulate against the AI) falls under.

Whether DCS simulates it in detail or not is another matter.

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

Modes 1 and 2 just set the ECM flag to true if the aircraft gets locked up by another radar.

If these just work using the same old ECM flag to true, then what explains the discrepency in behaviour against the AI?

Because the ECM flag being set to true when transmitting is how they all work in DCS World, and modules like the Tomcat, Mirage 2000 and I think the JF-17 too, all set the ECM flag to true when a RADAR in a track/fire-control mode is detected.

But apart from the F-16C and F/A-18, the only effect they have against the AI is to reduce the lock or launch range by some percentage, when outside the burn-through range.

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

This causes the other radar to loose lock if the distance is still great enough (outside of burn through distance).
I tested this with a buddy, and his radar always lost lock on my aircraft after a brief moment when I had jammer mode 1 or 2 active. You can achieve the exact same effect in mode 3, if you manually activate the jammer once your aircraft get locked up.

Against player aircraft it sounds like DCS is still only doing noise jamming (yes, I know it's not actually doing noise jamming, but that's what that ECM flag translates to for near enough every RADAR with jamming effects simulated) and what its trying to is emulate the range gate of these RADARs not being able to function properly (owing to range denial from noise jamming).

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 know you love these different ECM mode terminologies, but EW in DCS is much simpler and they don't really apply here (at least not on the jamming side of things).

What I love or not is neither here nor there, I'm trying to describe the basic general principles of how this stuff should work and what DCS is trying to emulate, even if 'under the hood' it's more simplified.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Northstar98

[QuiGon]

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Modes 1 and 2 should be deception modes

Agreed
 

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

as that's what track breaking (which is what DCS is at least trying to emulate against the AI) falls under.

IRL deception jamming doesn't necessarily cause a lock break, as the jammed radar might keep the lock up, but on a fake target.
 

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

If these just work using the same old ECM flag to true, then what explains the discrepency in behaviour against the AI?

The AI behaviour is under total control of ED (unlike 3rd party playable aircraft, which have to access API functions made available to 3rd party devs), so ED would be entirely free to give the AI different behaviour if it encounters a jammer of a Viper or a Hornet for example. I don't know if ED has done anything like that, but it would be a plausible way to do it.
 

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Because the ECM flag being set to true when transmitting is how they all work in DCS World, and modules like the Tomcat, Mirage 2000 and I think the JF-17 too, all have set the ECM flag to true when a RADAR in a track/fire-control mode is detected.

That's a great point and made me curious, so I will test that to make sure how they behave in this regard when used against other players.
 

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

But apart from the F-16C and F/A-18, the only effect they have against the AI is to reduce the lock or launch range by some percentage, when outside the burn-through range.

Indeed
 

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

What I love or not is neither here nor there, I'm trying to describe the basic general principles of how this stuff should work and what DCS is trying to emulate, even if 'under the hood' it's more simplified.

I get that, but sometimes this can get confusing as how stuff should work according to real life can sometimes be understood as how stuff does work in DCS, if not stated clearly what is what. So I'm trying to make clear how stuff works in DCS.

Edited February 7, 2022 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Agreed
 

IRL deception jamming doesn't necessarily cause a lock break, as the jammed radar might keep the lock up, but on a fake target.

Eh, I'd call that a lock break as far as the true target is concerned.

It also depends on whether or not the ECM system stops transmitting after performing the technique (in the 1962 USN DECM film, for the RGPO technique, it delays pulses (deceiving the RADAR about the target's range, so it ends up tracking a false target), and then stops transmitting, so the false target stops existing.

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

The AI behaviour is under total control of ED (unlike 3rd party playable aircraft, which have to access API functions made available to 3rd party devs), so ED would be entirely free to give the AI different behaviour if it encounters a jammer of a Viper or a Hornet for example. I don't know if ED has done anything like that, but it would be a plausible way to do it.

Possibly, it just seems a bit weird that the AI would only respond that way to those specific aircraft (not even jammers, seeing as other aircraft also use the AN/ALQ-184, or at least the short-version, but BIGNEWY confirmed they both behave the same way), and not be a platform upgrade to DCS, provided what's actually happening under the hood as it were is the same exact thing. 

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

That's a great point and made me curious, so I will test that to make sure how they behave in this regard when used against other players.

I'm guessing it will work the same as in mode 1/2, and the player's RADAR will emulate it as noise jamming and drop the lock (emulating the range gate being unable to function properly).

I haven't been able to test this though.

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I get that, but sometimes this can get confusing as how stuff should work according to real life can sometimes be understood as how stuff does work in DCS, if not stated clearly what is what. So I'm trying to make clear how stuff works in DCS.

Noted, in future I'll try and distinguish better between how it should work and how it does work in DCS.

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Possibly, it just seems a bit weird that the AI would only respond that way to those specific aircraft (not even jammers, seeing as other aircraft also use the AN/ALQ-184, or at least the short-version, but BIGNEWY confirmed they both behave the same way), and not be a platform upgrade to DCS, provided what's actually happening under the hood as it were is the same exact thing.

As far as I can tell ED is using the Hornet and the Viper as testbeds for a new jamming model, so I think it's possible, that they have done something like that for testing purposes. But this is pretty wild speculation now. The AI behavior and what it can react to is totally under the hood and only ED knows what's happening there.

[Hulkbust44]

At least the radar isn't 100% disabled like the Hornet's...

Outside of mode three neither aircraft should have the radar silenced due to the automatic channels.

[TEOMOOSE]

Also TWS shots dosent even bother ECM, because it doesnt know you are being tracked/targeted until the missile goes active. When it goes active, at about 10 nmi, the ECM start emitting but missile switch to HOJ.

 

[SCPanda]

30 minutes ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Also TWS shots dosent even bother ECM, because it doesnt know you are being tracked/targeted until the missile goes active. When it goes active, at about 10 nmi, the ECM start emitting but missile switch to HOJ.

 

Yeah for mode 1 and 2. But using mode 3 I think we should be able to deny long range TWS shots until the shooter aircraft's radar burns through our jammer. Unfortunately, the downside is we cannot use our own radar to engage the bandit when mode 3 jamming is transmitting. 

[SCPanda]

16 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

The good thing about mode 3 though, is that most player aircraft facilitate the effects of it (i.e strobes/AoJ contacts and range denial), beyond the burn-through range, Fox 3s won't loft owing to no ranging information.

 

The best tactic I'd use personally, is mode 3, turning it on when you expect the enemy's RADAR to get a skin return from your aircraft (if you do it before you'll give away your bearing, if you do it when or after, their RADAR would've been able to resolve you anyway).

The thing to be wary of though are HOJ capable missiles.

Yeah I have thought of the same. Mode 3 jamming could be useful when fighting against F-14, since it has a super long range fox 3s. Mode 3 could be used to deny Tomcat lofting its Aim-54s at you before your F-16 radar could even detect the Tomcat. However, one thing I am not sure about is, given Tomcat has a really powerful radar (but it's a relatively old radar as well), at what range could Tomcat's radar burn through F-16's jammer? Is F-16's jammer more effective against F-14's relatively older radar than let's say a Hornet's newer and move advanced (tho less powerful) radar? Or is this even modeled in DCS yet? 

 

Edit: Do Aim-54s have HOJ capability? If yes, how do the Phoneix perform compare to more modern fox 3 missiles like the Aim-120C when target is jamming? My guess is Aim-120C should has higher PK since it's more modern and advanced (tho less range). 

Edited February 8, 2022 by SCPanda

[Northstar98]

4 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Yeah I have thought of the same. Mode 3 jamming could be useful when fighting against F-14, since it has a super long range fox 3s. Mode 3 could be used to deny Tomcat lofting its Aim-54s at you before your F-16 radar could even detect the Tomcat. However, one thing I am not sure about is, given Tomcat has a really powerful radar (but it's a relatively old radar as well), at what range could Tomcat's radar burn through F-16's jammer? Is F-16's jammer more effective against F-14's relatively older radar than let's say a Hornet's newer and move advanced (tho less powerful) radar? Or is this even modeled in DCS yet? 

The problem there is that the Tomcat in DCS doesn't have any ECM effects on its RADAR modelled, so there's that.

As for calculating the burn-through range, we need to know the effective radiated power of the RADAR and jammer, and at least for the latter we don't know that, so the only thing we can do is test it for various RADARs and jammers.

As for effectiveness, there's no ECCM modelled in DCS, so every jammer is equally effective against every RADAR. So when it comes to representing noise jamming, it's range denial until the burn through range, for every RADAR and jammer.

4 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Edit: Do Aim-54s have HOJ capability? If yes, how do the Phoneix perform compare to more modern fox 3 missiles like the Aim-120C when target is jamming? My guess is Aim-120C should has higher PK since it's more modern and advanced (tho less range).

Yes, AIM-54s have HOJ capability, as for performance though, besides kinematic differences, I simply don't know, as it depends on how the seekers are modelled. As of right now though, the AIM-54 is still waiting to be transferred over to the new API.

[TobiasA]

I am surprised nobody noticed a decreased missile precision when combining ECM and maneuvering. 

Lock range isn't everything.

[Aquorys]

On 2/7/2022 at 4:26 AM, SCPanda said:

Given how ED currently models ECM environemnt in DCS and how the ECM pods on the F-16 work, it just seems to me that bringing a jammer to BVR is almost useless against a human pilot (or AI) flying jets with fox 3 capabilities.

Depending on what exact Fox 3 you're talking about, jamming may not be too effective against those anyway, because at least some of them also have home-on-jam capabilities (e.g. the AMRAAM), which is supposed to be good enough to get the missile close enough to the target to allow its onboard radar to "burn through" the jamming signal. I have no idea whether or not this is modeled in DCS though.

[Sinclair_76]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:16 PM, Hulkbust44 said:

At least the radar isn't 100% disabled like the Hornet's...

Outside of mode three neither aircraft should have the radar silenced due to the automatic channels.

It's not that the ECM is interfering with the radar signal wise, it's that the power consumption of the ECM is so large that choices have to be made between prioritizing pod or radar. At least that's how I understood it.
 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sinclair_76

[Hulkbust44]

4 hours ago, Sinclair_76 said:

It's not that the ECM is interfering with the radar signal wise, it's that the power consumption of the ECM is so large that choices have to be made between prioritizing pod or radar. At least that's how I understood it.
 

 

 

I was wondering about that, seeing as the 184 isn't like a 99 where it can generate it's own power.

[Invisibull]

In a PvE environment I've noticed that using the jammer all but guarantees your radar won't support any locks for very long, often dropping lock before your slammer can go active.  I really don't see the point of using it in a BVR engagement as its currently modeled.  Of course I might be missing something and if that's the case, I'd love to know how the jammer can be of use. 

[SCPanda]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:27 AM, Invisibull said:

In a PvE environment I've noticed that using the jammer all but guarantees your radar won't support any locks for very long, often dropping lock before your slammer can go active.  I really don't see the point of using it in a BVR engagement as its currently modeled.  Of course I might be missing something and if that's the case, I'd love to know how the jammer can be of use. 

IRL, F-16 does bring ALQ-184 in CAP missions. This picture is from an article saying F-16 bringing 5 120s and 1 9x in a CAP mission but as you can see, ALQ-184 long is in the center station. 

[skywalker22]

deleted

Edited March 11, 2022 by skywalker22

[TheBigTatanka]

Here is how I use it in BVR....

If I'm on a banzai flow, and if I'm spiked at decision range, i turn to the notch, turn on ECM, and dump chaff to break the lock.

In that case, my wingman goes in and kills (because we've already established numerical superiority.)

If I've got pitch-in criteria met, i turn off the jammer and pitch in. Otherwise, leave it on as i exit (pitch-in criteria not met).

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