Petrovich and Low Light Visibility - Petro Is Not A Bat

[ColonelColt]

TL;DR - Petrovich has a serious cutoff seeing targets in even medium light situations.

This is being written as a touch point for anyone looking into a similar topic in the future. This isn't a complaint thread but merely one to record observations and perhaps help someone in the future who's getting frustrated. I'm running a 960 and I think my settings are pretty middle of the road and I've never adjusted the gamma to give better visibility.  

Setup: I'm getting back into the Hind after learning some of it months ago and last night I tried out the Battle for Zugdidi instant action mission which I'd never tried before. For those who don't know: Your goal is to stop an SA-11 group from  setting up just north of the river  a very short distance north of your FARP.  There are a couple of Iglas lurking and you're armed with gun pods and ATGMs. It's early morning in November so light levels are low but not terrible.  As shown below you're about 7 klicks  from the target point on initial takeoff.  The time is 8:10, usually 8:15 by the time you're done turning all of the lights off and weapon systems warmed up. One interesting note, the only way I've had the mission give me the "Great kid, you blew up the SA-11s!" message was using the ATGMs an hour later. Completely obliterating them at low altitude with gunpods multiple times doesn't seem to trigger it but maybe I'm not doing something quite right most of the time.

 

What I found: Petrovich *will not* lock onto these targets even at almost point blank range.  Here's a view from about 3.5k with labels on just to make things easier. It seems there's some specific light threshold where he will or will not see ground targets and not a gradient or a RNG type deal. I messed around with the mission file some rotating the sun back and forth and it doesn't seem to have to do with factors like ground clutter, specific position (the targets are moving initially but will stop if you shoot at them), or approach angle or altitude.   I don't have a fancy chart to show this but about a dozen times running this mission  with the stock settings I couldn't get him to sight targets.

Example view from one run with labels on and reverse view showing ground conditions. Ignore the "Can't move sight yet" that was an old message.

And this is from a run with the clock rolled forward one hour where I was able to get him to see the targets on takeoff. 

Conclusion: Don't expect Petrovich to be able to see targets in even medium lighting conditions for the ATGMs. A human player could have made these shots. I know because I also made Petrovich fly multiple times with my running the missile station successfully and I don't have the largest monitor or best graphic settings. If anyone has insight into how this systems works currently I'd love to have it posted here. I'm planning on doing some more experimentation in the future on other maps and by using illumination rockets to see if that makes a difference.

As a sidenote: The ground AI has some serious laser-like sharpshooting ability in the same low light condition. I don't know if they're intentionally shooting for weapon stations or if it's just my barely dodging streamers of fire from side to side. Usually it enrages me enough to go back and murder them with the 30mm.

Edited February 17, 2022 by ColonelColt

[AeriaGloria]

I believe it’s simply based off time before or after twilight: i hope it gets better with time

[ColonelColt]

I believe you're right. I wasn't able to nail down an exact time but it didn't get gradually better (as in he started spotting them further and further out) he just suddenly could spot them past 9:00 but not around 8:15.  Like I said I'll set up a mission to try i tout with illumination flares. I wish there were a way to get your wingman to illuminate an area. Maybe there is and I'm simply unaware.

[AeriaGloria]

9 minutes ago, ColonelColt said:

I believe you're right. I wasn't able to nail down an exact time but it didn't get gradually better (as in he started spotting them further and further out) he just suddenly could spot them past 9:00 but not around 8:15.  Like I said I'll set up a mission to try i tout with illumination flares. I wish there were a way to get your wingman to illuminate an area. Maybe there is and I'm simply unaware.

You’ll want to pop them about 10-15 degrees if 100-300m, closer to 5 degrees if like 500-600m. They will illuminate an area 3.7 km away from you for 35 seconds: if you have rockets and missile selectors bound have Petro search the area while you switch to rockets and fire then go back to MSL 

[Devrim]

Oh. I'm glad Petrovich can't see targets. Because I can't either.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Devrim

[unknown]

14 hours ago, Devrim said:

Oh. I'm glad Petrovich can't see targets. Because I can't either.

 

In my opinion Petrovich does need a serious eye check up!

I'm not advocating Petrovich should be able to see at night or other unrealistic stuff but he has a serious problem seeing things that are clearly visible with my own pilot eyes in twilight and i don't have a sight for magnification!

Here is a quick and dirty test, i can see these targets clearly. It might be harder to see on the screenshot than it is in game(2d/VR).

 

This is just a little over 3km away:

Clearly visible from Petrovich's cockpit:

And not to mention through is sight:

This wouldn't be a problem with a human Petrovich, but our AI Petrovich just refuses to see any target in this situation! And that is what i would call at least unrealistic if not a bug.

All screenshots were taken in active pause at the same distance/location and i did order Petrovich 20 times to look for targets and never got the list to choose one myself or him telling me that he has locked to something. If you would put some AAA there between the trucks.....yes they would shoot at you with nice tracer ammunition and Petrovich would still see nothing!

As i said before, i don't want Petrovich to be able to have unrealistic sight(FLIR like sight at night...), but it is at least a little irritating that he can't see anything in the above situation but surprises me once in a MP session with reporting targets at full daylight that are completely invisible for me because they are hidden behind a tree line....

I hope ED will improve Petrovich before EA of the Hind ends.

Edited February 18, 2022 by unknown

[ColonelColt]

Thanks Unknown! I was actually testing some very similar stuff since I first posted and hadn't had a chance to come back to share but I found basically the same results. I tried in winter, as you did, and in other high contrast situations like out in the flat desert with no real difference. I've actually been able to see and kind of lob missiles into targets in low light from beyond "max" range so it's not like it can't be done but Petro's detection ability seems very limited right now.  It mostly bothers me because of the kind of hard time  that seems to exist rather than actual light/contrast levels. Even the TV guided Mavericks seem to have a far better ability to pick up stuff in lower light.   I might continue my tests by moving the clock back and forth in smaller increments to see if there's a specific number. 

[ebabil]

maybe his eyes have some sighting problems. 

[AeriaGloria]

17 hours ago, ebabil said:

maybe his eyes have some sighting problems. 

Vodka does cause double vision, and the gun is cooled by half alcohol mixture in freezing conditions….

Edited February 24, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Bri01]

Petrovich is totally blind compared to super AI. They can spot you a long ways away but he can't even see them when their tracer rounds are taking out his windshield. Hope George is better than him 

[Marklar]

In the latest video "WWII Development Update" ED mentions about AI inability to engage targets in low light environment. Maybe it's the same thing that causes Petrovich's eye sight problems. 

 

 

[Andurula]

On 2/23/2022 at 9:44 AM, AeriaGloria said:

Vodka does cause double vision, and the gun is cooled by half alcohol mixture in freezing conditions….

 

You might think you are joking but I worked alongside a Russian Kamov crew in the 90's.  We were working in a "dry" work camp so they were ordering large quantities of de-icing fluid (basically alcohol) which became the base ingredient in some mixed concoction there were drinking.  The Russians had an open invitation to their parties but at some point I received a company memo from my headquarters forbidding me and my coworkers from participating after one of my co-workers went blind for a few hours due to alcohol poisoning.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, Russians use fairly pure water-ethanol mixtures for cooling and as antifreeze partially for this reason (plus, it's cheap and doesn't freeze even in Siberian temperatures). They know that if they used anything else, the troops would drink it anyway.  Better not to let them get poisoned trying. That said, methanol (among other things) may occasionally find its way into some of these concoctions, especially if they're mixed with the local moonshine, which is a story of its own. 

[primus_TR]

4 parts ethanol + 6 parts water = true vodka

[Sobakopes]

Petro goes to bed quite early. 

[KoN]

Petro could not lock targets in low light and a cloudy day . With shadows casting over targets . I Could see "but he would not lock . Rotorheads Server .

Had too get in really close before a Lock was achieved by then im in Danger .

Edited March 28, 2022 by KoN

[Bephott]

Any update on this? Will this be fixed in the future? Any promises?

The skills of Petrovich make the Hind just anoying...

And it's not only that he can't see in the morning, even when every enemy is shooting at us.

Sometimes I hover at a fair distance from a stationary target, and he just can't hit it... And I hold the hover so perfectly that an MBT can shoot back at me, and down us... Why Petrovich, why?

Most missions where I want him to shoot stuff ends up with me running in and killing some enemies with unguided rockets and MG, until they shoot us down...

I feel like the Mi-24 is just neglected, because the AH-64 makes more money

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, Bephott said:

Any update on this? Will this be fixed in the future? Any promises?

The skills of Petrovich make the Hind just anoying...

And it's not only that he can't see in the morning, even when every enemy is shooting at us.

Sometimes I hover at a fair distance from a stationary target, and he just can't hit it... And I hold the hover so perfectly that an MBT can shoot back at me, and down us... Why Petrovich, why?

Most missions where I want him to shoot stuff ends up with me running in and killing some enemies with unguided rockets and MG, until they shoot us down...

I feel like the Mi-24 is just neglected, because the AH-64 makes more money

Might want to upload a track for the stationary target thing. Since shortly after release I’ve had no issues and Petro is practically perfect outside of dusk/dawn. 

[Medley]

Yeah... Always same problem here. So boring. 

[Ian Boys UK]

Did an online mission last night where Petro was firing very accurately in the dark so this seems fixed.

 

[admiki]

Tested myself and just like Ian says, Petridish is now night capable. It works with moon out, if it's moonless night, no dice

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by admiki
Added:

[Quati]

On RotorHeads I noticed that Petro is identifying target that are very, very far now. Too far away for my taste.

I had to scroll the target list a lot cause he prioritize AA and I was trying to get the armor that was close to me (and there are a lot of AA on the server now). Maybe on more realistic missions (a rotor craft shouldn't charge on an area with 10+ known SA-8, SA-13, SA-7), this is not an issue.

As for identifying targets at night, even with full Moon, I feel like cheating as I feel when using the NVG.

Anyways is up to us and the mission makers to decide the use of NVGs or using ATGMs at night with a full the Moon and clear skies.

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, Ian Boys UK said:

Did an online mission last night where Petro was firing very accurately in the dark so this seems fixed.

 

 

6 hours ago, admiki said:

Tested myself and just like Ian says, Petridish is now night capable. It works with moon out, if it's moonless night, no dice

 

 

 

 

 

This is pretty amazing. Petro does feel much more realistically limited after last patch, greater delay time, easier to lose target, identification based on range is so nice, and telling us when something we lock is outside of missile range is tremendous. Petro is only really missing one thing now……. 

[admiki]

9 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

 

This is pretty amazing. Petro does feel much more realistically limited after last patch, greater delay time, easier to lose target, identification based on range is so nice, and telling us when something we lock is outside of missile range is tremendous. Petro is only really missing one thing now……. 

TBH, I'm not sure you would be able to see anything IRL through those optics unless it was super Moon outside

[Cr33p3r]

Revisiting this. I find petro is better and more accurate when within range. However, his night vision is non existent. As pilot, i can apparently put on night vision but he apparently can't. If I'm in a dawn mission, I have to wait. Hopefully can be tweaked in the future. I realize this isn't the AH64 with heat vision but seems Petro should be able to see better. 

I will try the illumination rocket method mentioned above and see how it goes.