I HAVE A DUDE TO USE VOR AND TACAN APPROACH WITH A 10 C

[mosqui]

Good morning and a question Can I make an approach to an airport runway with the A 10 C warthog via VOR or is it not possible? Do I always need to have a TACAN available? I say this because in most of the approach charts there is no Tacan and there is Vor. Thanks for the advanced response

[Razor18]

AS far as I know, TACAN is for military, and VOR/DME is for civilian. I dunno which charts you are talking about, DCS or real life?

[mosqui]

Good afternoon The question is not what navigation chart you use nor the difference between the vor and tacan as civil or military use. The question is whether an A 10 C Warthog aircraft can make an approach to the runway using the signal emission from a Vor considering the equipment that takes the A 10 C to navigate ?.That is radio, HSi, etc. In any case, thanks for your answer even if it does not solve my doubt. Greetings

[Razor18]

OK, short answer is no then.

"A TACAN only equipped aircraft cannot receive bearing information from a VOR only station."

See more detailed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_air_navigation_system

Does this help maybe?

[mosqui]

hi Razor 18

Thank you very much for your clarification and I reiterate that I appreciate your quick response.

What I see here is a problem to be able to make an approach with an A 10 C Warthog to an airport that does not have TACAN only one VOR or NDB available and that the plane does not have the green view of the hud or the multifunction screens (out of function damaged )and should only use radio, HSI. How would you approach the runway assigned by ATC?

Thanks

[jaylw314]

Unless the A-10C has a TACAN fix to approach the airport for an ILS, it wouldn't.  I don't believe the GPS/INS is IFR certified, nor are there approach fixes in the database.

In DCS, of course, you'd simply pull up the airport waypoint, set it as the steerpoint, make sure the NMSP is on STEERPT, dial in your desired approach direction on the HSI CRS, then fly it as an ad hoc non-precision approach.  If the CDU/EGI is busted and there's no TACAN or ILS and you're in IMC, well, then you're out of luck.  The A-10C was not designed to be an all-weather aircraft.

[ASAP]

The A-10 cant use a VOR at all. VORTACS yes. You can get vectors to intercept an ILS approach course without needing a TACAN.

As long as you have a functioning radio you can get vectors to get to the airfield. As far as the approach, hopefully there is a close enough airport that can do a PAR or an ASR approach. Basically the radar operator talks you down through the weather. They are not very common in the states though. I think Europe still uses them a lot.

In reality these are all things the military would think about before sending an A-10 into harms way, and they'd make sure there are available navaids to get you home.

 

[ASAP]

Pile on to my previous post >> That's why fighter pilots don't fly alone. You have a wingman/flight lead for a reason. If your jet is broken somehow you can let the good jet navigate and the bad jet can stay on their wing to follow him home. You can even do the entire penetration, approach, and landing in fingertip if weather sucks.

[BuzzU]

Providing the wingman makes it back with you.

[Szprynmann]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:31 PM, jaylw314 said:

In DCS, of course, you'd simply pull up the airport waypoint, set it as the steerpoint, make sure the NMSP is on STEERPT, dial in your desired approach direction on the HSI CRS, then fly it as an ad hoc non-precision approach. 

This can be done in a quasi-precision way.
From F10 map a touchdown point can be established. 
Insert it into CDU (waypoint page), set SCALE as "Approach", STEER as TO-FROM, on the second page enable VNAV 3D mode, type in the approach slope (e.g. 3 deg) and insert it (do it twice to have -3), set desired CRS, set PTR on NMSP to ABLE, use STR PT and you're good to go
IMHO not as precise as an ILS, but it works quite good.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Szprynmann

[ASAP]

8 hours ago, Szprynmann said:

This can be done in a quasi-precision way.
From F10 map a touchdown point can be established. 
Insert it into CDU (waypoint page), set SCALE as "Approach", STEER as TO-FROM, on the second page enable VNAV 3D mode, type in the approach slope (e.g. 3 deg) and insert it (do it twice to have -3), set desired CRS, set PTR on NMSP to ABLE, use STR PT and you're good to go
IMHO not as precise as an ILS, but it works quite good.

 

You're not wrong. But that's purely a Gameism. The A-10 is not authorized to do that in real life. 

[Szprynmann]

1 hour ago, ASAP said:

You're not wrong. But that's purely a Gameism. The A-10 is not authorized to do that in real life. 

When in distress every aid is helpful 

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, Szprynmann said:

When in distress every aid is helpful 

When in distress, you press ESC 

 

[epoch]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

When in distress, you press ESC 

 

Ctrl-E actually.

Three times.

[Ignition]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:55 PM, ASAP said:

You're not wrong. But that's purely a Gameism. The A-10 is not authorized to do that in real life. 

I'm sure In real life when in combat AND in need, a lot of the standard procedures aren't used.

[ASAP]

10 hours ago, Ignition said:

I'm sure In real life when in combat AND in need, a lot of the standard procedures aren't used.

There are definitely training rules that fly straight out the window. And all flying regs say that pilots can deviate if necessary for safety of flight. This isn't that though. Building your own approach like this would get guys killed, and the jet is not authorized to do this because the jet isn't capable of doing it safely in real life. It works more or less in the game I guess, but the jet can't provide the required level of accuracy and precision. Talking to the A-10 guys I know they say that have never the 3d nav in this way. Also to do this you'd have to have all of your systems working perfectly, in which case there's no reason not to fly the published approaches. Also it would require the pilots to have practiced doing it. They don't practice it, because its not allowed. 

Military planning accounts for things like weather diverts and where you're going if the jet has issues or navaids go down. They do all their extraordinary planning on the ground so they don't have to rely on extraordinary piloting abilities to get home. 

[cfrag]

10 hours ago, Ignition said:

I'm sure In real life when in combat AND in need, a lot of the standard procedures aren't used.

Huh. Usually, most of these procedures are built exactly for the moment when you are in need, combat and under stress. Following known, tested and familiar procedures allow you to keep cool even under duress, minimize workload, and ensures that you are not committing to some action that is more dangerous than absolutely necessary. That's why the pros definitely stick to procedure when "clear day sailing" goes out the window and crap hits the fan.

Now, thankfully, this doesn't apply to a game, and anything that floats your boat is fine. It's also the reason we don't sit in 1 hour briefings before we take to the stick. We improvise, and love it. Pros hate to improvise. It's unsafe, unpredictable, and a good way to a dusty, early death. In a game it's fun. So by all means, shoot some TACAN approaches in you Hog, using the portable TACAN. I love doing that, even if it's not procedure.

Edited April 1, 2022 by cfrag

[ASAP]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

Now, thankfully, this doesn't apply to a game, and anything that floats your boat is fine. It's also the reason we don't sit in 1 hour briefings before we take to the stick. We improvise, and love it. Pros hate to improvise. It's unsafe, unpredictable, and a good way to a dusty, early death. In a game it's fun. So by all means, shoot some TACAN approaches in you Hog, using the portable TACAN. I love doing that, even if it's not procedure.

Agreed! This is a game, do what you want and push it up. I was just throwing out real world data for those who prefer to try and fly as realistically as possible. Some people don't care about realism and want to just have fun. There's no wrong way to play DCS. 

[silverdevil]

IRL A10 would not be flying much in bad weather. especially when CAS. too much of a chance for friendly fire incidents. they will not attack anything unless they can have eyes on friendly forces. so no blind landing either. now landings without land nav aids would be landing like a cessna at some random airport. if it was landing at a captured airport, (or a road) the special ops peeps would give them all the XYZ coordinates, they would punch it in and away they would go. now talking me in the sim, i do a lot of missions that i do not use military airports. i lase the airfield to get coordinates and use that as SPI and then land using kentucky windage so to speak. A10 is easy to land compared to say the viper.

[ASAP]

 

Not sure what any of that is based on...

"Blind landings" to the best of my knowledge isn't a thing, and no US fighter does them. If you mean they can't do instrument approaches down to ILS CAT I mins, you're correct no US fighter can. The A-10 specifically flies approaches to category D minimums.

A landing without NAVAIDS in an A-10 is either a PAR/ASR or a VFR landing. VFR is the way all fighters land unless weather or training requirements dictate otherwise.

Bomb on coordinate CAS is a thing... There are tactics techniques and procedures for CAS with crap weather. A-10s are probably going to want to fly low altitude under the weather. It is not necessary to be visual friendlies in every single circumstance, they have to have high SA on friendly postions which doesn't necessarily require seeing them.

Here's a story that shows how the hawg can do CAS better than any other fighter in absolutly horrible weather.

https://taskandpurpose.com/community/unsung-heroes-10-pilots-intentionally-drew-enemy-fire-protect-trapped-marines/

Edited April 5, 2022 by ASAP
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[Chain_1]

On 4/4/2022 at 5:20 PM, ASAP said:

 

If you mean they can't do instrument approaches down to ILS CAT I mins, you're correct no US fighter can. The A-10 specifically flies approaches to category D minimums.

 

A point of order.  The aircraft category A-E on the bottom of the approach plate has to do with the aircraft's speed, not it's approach equipment.  The A-10 (and other US Fighters) absolutely can shoot CAT I ILS approaches because CAT I is the basic ILS, and said fighters have ILS receivers (though you are correct in that they do more VFR approaches than IFR).  You would be further correct if you were to say that those fighters could not shoot CAT II or III ILS approaches, as they aren't certified (though I would have to check their  -1s and vol 3s, to be sure).

[ASAP]

21 hours ago, Chain_1 said:

A point of order.  The aircraft category A-E on the bottom of the approach plate has to do with the aircraft's speed, not it's approach equipment.  The A-10 (and other US Fighters) absolutely can shoot CAT I ILS approaches because CAT I is the basic ILS, and said fighters have ILS receivers (though you are correct in that they do more VFR approaches than IFR).  You would be further correct if you were to say that those fighters could not shoot CAT II or III ILS approaches, as they aren't certified (though I would have to check their  -1s and vol 3s, to be sure).

Good point, you are correct, I got turned around with the CAT 1 vs 3.  They are only capable of doing the basic ILS which is what I meant to say. I only brought up CAT D because of the minimum weather requirements, not the equipment. I could have written that clearer.

[silverdevil]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:20 PM, ASAP said:

Not sure what any of that is based on...

personal experience being an armor crewman. my point was that engaging anything, with any weapon, without getting a clear ID on the target OR being told by friendlies their location is reckless at best. if you do not know what you are shooting at, then you do not shoot. your example obviously knew where the friendlies were and avoided that location. but this topic was about landing with instruments.

[Ephedrin]

A little late to the topic but I‘d still like to point out that the advantage of using the „military version“ of a VOR is that a TACAN is portable. Not sure about the capabilities of DCS in the mission editor but actually you can put a TACAN whereever you want easily. Keep in mind, Tankers fly TACANs around all the time. They don‘t provide the ability for a precision approach but neither do VOR stations. A VOR/TACAN is just as precise or unprecise in legal terms as an RNAV or IAN approach as mentioned above but it can help you find the runway in the sim. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ephedrin