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PH ACT AIM-54 not going active immediately


Stickler

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According to the game manual, "[t]he AIM-54 can [...] be commanded to go active directly after launch in both TWS and pulse doppler STT modes by setting the MSL OPTIONS switch to PH ACT before launch. This tells the WCS to immediately command the AIM-54 to go active in the first guidance command after launch. If launched at a target within 6 NM if in the targets rear hemisphere or 10 NM miles if in its forward hemisphere the WCS will also automatically command this mode instead of a SARH mode. If the target is not detected actively by the seeker it will still fall back to SARH until the seeker can acquire on its own like in the two SARH modes."

According to my tests, both against the AI and against human players, a Phoenix launched in PH ACT mode actually goes active either at 10 nm or at the distance set by the TGTS switch (the testing results were somewhat inconclusive and may depend on whether the target is a human or an AI), in any case not immediately when launched.

In the attached .acmi, the TGTS switch was set to SMALL. One can clearly distinguish the PH ACT shots from the regular shot by their straight flight profile. For both shots, the target's pilot perceived an active missile warning only at 6 nm.

All shots were performed in TWS and with a human RIO in the back seat, although I could observe the same problem against the AI in single-player when setting the PH ACT switch myself in the back seat.

Based on preliminary testing, the issue is present for ACM Active mode as well.

PH ACT test.acmi

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Any inkling of when we may get this? Not to pile on, but this was the primary firing mode for most aircrews from what I've heard. It's the only way to get a true modern fox3 pdstt mode where it gets guidance (unless you are inside 10 miles) and fallback capabilities. 

(Added a D, in a very important location)

 


Edited by DoorMouse
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2 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

Any inkling of when we may get this? Not to pile on, but this was the primary firing mode for most aircrews from what I've heard. It's the only way to get a true modern fox3 pstt mode where it gets guidance (unless you are inside 10 miles) and fallback capabilities. 

 

 

Just to clarify, this is not the missile not going active, it's the missile seeker itself not picking up a target until at 10Nm and an RWR not seeing it until then. The only thing that could change if ED changes this is that the RWR should be seeing the missile at longer range and that the missile itself might pick up the target further out. But that would depend on RCS and it wouldn't be much farther. The missile can still grab a target further out as it is and it would do the same if this changed.

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9 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

Just to clarify, this is not the missile not going active, it's the missile seeker itself not picking up a target until at 10Nm and an RWR not seeing it until then. The only thing that could change if ED changes this is that the RWR should be seeing the missile at longer range and that the missile itself might pick up the target further out. But that would depend on RCS and it wouldn't be much farther. The missile can still grab a target further out as it is and it would do the same if this changed.

So- currently in game can I PH active a PDSTT shot and it will pitbull properly and handover to it's own seeker head at the correct range, or if AWG9 data is lost. And can it fall back to the AWG9 if onboard AHR is lost?

 

My understanding was the game cannot handle the actual mechanics of how the aim54 worked 

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3 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

So- currently in game can I PH active a PDSTT shot and it will pitbull properly and handover to it's own seeker head at the correct range, or if AWG9 data is lost. And can it fall back to the AWG9 if onboard AHR is lost?

 

My understanding was the game cannot handle the actual mechanics of how the aim54 worked 

Ah no, I misunderstood your question, you were asking for P-STT. As for PD-STT ACT that's still not possible in its entirety and I don't really have a timeline for that.

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14 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

Just to clarify, this is not the missile not going active, it's the missile seeker itself not picking up a target until at 10Nm and an RWR not seeing it until then. The only thing that could change if ED changes this is that the RWR should be seeing the missile at longer range and that the missile itself might pick up the target further out. But that would depend on RCS and it wouldn't be much farther. The missile can still grab a target further out as it is and it would do the same if this changed.

If this is the way ED has modelled it then we obviously have to live with it.

However, strictly talking real-life, shouldn't the RWR of any aircraft located within an active missile's radar cone or even side lobes be able to receive and indicate the missile's radar emissions from much farther out than 10 nm, even if the missile itself cannot acquire/lock on to its target due to insufficient RCS?

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1 minute ago, Stickler said:

If this is the way ED has modelled it then we obviously have to live with it.

However, strictly talking real-life, shouldn't the RWR of any aircraft located within an active missile's radar cone or even side lobes be able to receive and indicate the missile's radar emissions from much farther out than 10 nm, even if the missile itself cannot acquire/lock on to its target due to insufficient RCS?

Yup. Sidelobes maybe not that far away but in the mainlobe, definitely.

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4 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

Ah no, I misunderstood your question, you were asking for P-STT. As for PD-STT ACT that's still not possible in its entirety and I don't really have a timeline for that.

I see. Yes I added the D.... 🙂

 

and Damn. That is unfortunate. I hope soon but I realize the game has no concept of a missile changing from a fox1-3 mid flights and that's a core game limitation until someone creates that functionality at ED

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2 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

I see. Yes I added the D.... 🙂

 

and Damn. That is unfortunate. I hope soon but I realize the game has no concept of a missile changing from a fox1-3 mid flights and that's a core game limitation until someone creates that functionality at ED

Yeah. Originally we couldn't do this at all but ED graciously helped us by adding the functionality to use the same missile in both SARH and ARH as well as controlling when to activate the seeker so things are progressing at least! 🙂

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24 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

Yeah. Originally we couldn't do this at all but ED graciously helped us by adding the functionality to use the same missile in both SARH and ARH as well as controlling when to activate the seeker so things are progressing at least! 🙂

This is in your internal builds correct - That does not exist in game currently right? 

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16 minutes ago, DoorMouse said:

This is in your internal builds correct - That does not exist in game currently right? 

No this is currently what we have in game. I'm talking about the fact that we can launch the missile in SARH in PD-STT and ARH in TWS. And that we can set at which range the missile goes active in TWS.

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34 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

No this is currently what we have in game. I'm talking about the fact that we can launch the missile in SARH in PD-STT and ARH in TWS. And that we can set at which range the missile goes active in TWS.

Ohhhhh. Right. 

 

So you didn't have to make a separate AHR and SAHR version. Got it. 

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  • 6 months later...

Based on testing against AI targets in 2.7.17.29493, the PH ACT behaviour has deteriorated since I made the original post since as of now the missile seems acquire the target (to include producing RWR indications) at exactly 10 nm regardless of the position of the TGTS and PH ACT switches.

Previously only the LARGE setting would have no effect due to the 10 nm limitation, but SMALL would cause AI threat reactions to start only at 6 nm.

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3 hours ago, Stickler said:

Based on testing against AI targets in 2.7.17.29493, the PH ACT behaviour has deteriorated since I made the original post since as of now the missile seems acquire the target (to include producing RWR indications) at exactly 10 nm regardless of the position of the TGTS and PH ACT switches.

Previously only the LARGE setting would have no effect due to the 10 nm limitation, but SMALL would cause AI threat reactions to start only at 6 nm.

The target size switch only works for the AIM-54A now.

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1 hour ago, Naquaii said:

It's a DCS limitation. That said we don't have as much info regarding this in regards to the AIM-54C.

I see... Correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen missiles such as the SD-10 and the AIM-120 being able to be set the target size switch from the jet (JF-17 and Hornet). Am I correct to assume that this is a feature of the new missile API?

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1 hour ago, Comrade Doge said:

I see... Correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen missiles such as the SD-10 and the AIM-120 being able to be set the target size switch from the jet (JF-17 and Hornet). Am I correct to assume that this is a feature of the new missile API?

And what does that do with the missile exactly? You can't really compare the different missiles 1:1. In this case it's because we used to switch to decide when to tell the missile to switch from SARH to ARH, that's not possible with the AIM-54C as it's already ARH.

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13 hours ago, Naquaii said:

And what does that do with the missile exactly? You can't really compare the different missiles 1:1. In this case it's because we used to switch to decide when to tell the missile to switch from SARH to ARH, that's not possible with the AIM-54C as it's already ARH.

In the case of the SD-10 and 120, the switch sets the distance from the target when the missile goes pitbull, just like the AIM-54 used to work. Is that possible to be done as well for the 54C, perhaps with the new API, just like the other missiles can?

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5 hours ago, Comrade Doge said:

In the case of the SD-10 and 120, the switch sets the distance from the target when the missile goes pitbull, just like the AIM-54 used to work. Is that possible to be done as well for the 54C, perhaps with the new API, just like the other missiles can?

From what I've known that switch doesn't do anything for the AIM-120, can't say anything about the SD-10. (In DCS.) In any case it's not as simple as just the activation distance for more modern missiles, there are additional considerations for it as it basically sets the missile up for target size in more ways. As for the new missile features implemented I don't really know as we don't use those.


Edited by Naquaii
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46 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

From what I've known that switch doesn't do anything for the AIM-120, can't say anything about the SD-10. (In DCS.) In any case it's not as simple as just the activation distance for more modern missiles, there are additional considerations for it as it basically sets the missile up for target size in more ways. As for the new missile features implemented I don't really know as we don't use those.

 

I see. Thanks for the information

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