brand new and on the free Russian jet

[swaps]

Only been on here 2 days. I am trying to get a start with the free Russian Jet and have some questions

Is this jet under powered ? I keep getting stalls and having to pull back on the stick to keep level flight, sometimes it not too bad sometimes if nose dives to the ground

Is there any radar  on this jet ? have to manually look for targets which can be hard if you pass them without noticing.

The only way I can see the hud is by moving right forward, my eyes are not bad and in this position you cannot see any other instruments. Is it the same in other aircraft or just this one. 

I have not flown for some time but have flown real aircraft  (Gliders and microlights)and MS sim 98 and was pretty good with it.

 

Just looking for advice ? Just spent all my money on a new PC cable of running this so funds are short for buying other aircraft

 

Thanks Alan

Edited February 19, 2022 by swaps

[Raven434th]

She's a handfull with weapons load probably cause she's got alot of them,no radar optical search only. Trim her constantly and she'll fly right.recon the area and make a plan of attack based on weapon being employed.

[Exorcet]

The Su-25T is a ground attack plane, upgraded from the Su-25. It's a bit heavy especially when fitted with weapons so don't expect it to feel very powerful, although the top speed is decent when you eventually get there (perhaps by diving). A similar plane that has better performance would be the AV-8B, or you could take one of the multirole fighters for max performance (F-16, JF-17, F-18). The Su-25 also requires manual trimming, this could be why your nose sometimes wants to dive to the ground, you're not trimmed. You absolutely need to have trim bound to your controls somewhere to properly fly this plane.

It has no radar, only an optical sensor. You'll need to rely on mission intel to know where to best point it to look for targets. There are also units in the game that can mark targets for you (AFAC's) with smoke rockets.

Russian cockpits can be kind of a mess in my opinion, so if you're struggling to find a comfy position, I understand. I'd consider most western cockpits (A-10, F-16, etc) to be much better with a couple of exceptions (F-14, AV-8B).

If you're on the nonsteam version of DCS you can try any plane for free for 2 weeks, and this resets every 6 months. Take the time to experiment until you can afford to buy something else.

[Lange_666]

2 hours ago, swaps said:

The only way I can see the hud is by moving right forward, my eyes are not bad and in this position you cannot see any other instruments. Is it the same in other aircraft or just this one. 

27 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

If you're on the nonsteam version of DCS you can try any plane for free for 2 weeks, and this resets every 6 months. Take the time to experiment until you can afford to buy something else.

You can experiment and see for your self, otherwise, just check youtube on how other planes look like through the HUD.

[swaps]

12 minutes ago, Lange_666 said:

You can experiment and see for your self, otherwise, just check youtube on how other planes look like through the HUD.

Thanks, I am on the non steam version so will have a look

42 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The Su-25T is a ground attack plane, upgraded from the Su-25. It's a bit heavy especially when fitted with weapons so don't expect it to feel very powerful, although the top speed is decent when you eventually get there (perhaps by diving). A similar plane that has better performance would be the AV-8B, or you could take one of the multirole fighters for max performance (F-16, JF-17, F-18). The Su-25 also requires manual trimming, this could be why your nose sometimes wants to dive to the ground, you're not trimmed. You absolutely need to have trim bound to your controls somewhere to properly fly this plane.

It has no radar, only an optical sensor. You'll need to rely on mission intel to know where to best point it to look for targets. There are also units in the game that can mark targets for you (AFAC's) with smoke rockets.

Russian cockpits can be kind of a mess in my opinion, so if you're struggling to find a comfy position, I understand. I'd consider most western cockpits (A-10, F-16, etc) to be much better with a couple of exceptions (F-14, AV-8B).

If you're on the nonsteam version of DCS you can try any plane for free for 2 weeks, and this resets every 6 months. Take the time to experiment until you can afford to buy something else.

Thanks, will have to look up how to trim this plane

[Mike Force Team]

Welcome to DCS :).  We are glad you are gaining some experience flying the SU-25.  I wanted to share my experiences with the SU-25 and offer insights into other aspects of DCS world.

When I first joined, I learned the SU-25 was hard to fly, to land, and just a handful to manage.  To gain more information, I watched various YouTube videos on channels such as Grim Reapers and Prickly Hedgehog.  They have archived videos showing a detailed evaluation of assorted jets and choppers.  Of course, asking for suggestions in the forum is another way to get more information.

I purchased the F/A-18 hornet as my first paid jet.  I discovered this jet is easier to fly and manage than the SU-25.  The F/A-18 is more user-friendly and much more forgiving.  The hornet's simplified layout and integrated layout reduces pilot's fatigue, which allows you to enjoy the flight and experience the action of aerial combat.  Even more so, the F/A-18 allows you to either land on an aircraft carrier or at land-based military installation.  

Another module to consider is the Supercarrier module.  This is an aircraft carrier that allows you to do maritime missions.  Additionally, consider investing in the Persian Gulf map and the Syria map since many gamers create missions or military campaigns using these maps.

For now, I would suggest waiting about purchasing the F-14.  It is hard to fly and tends to experience flat spins.  The F-14 was used in the popular 1986 movie called Top Gun.  

Next, here is how you can strategize your purchases.  Approximately once a quarter, the DCS website has an announcement about new planes/choppers being released.  They appear as Early Release Access, which is a discounted price.  At the same time, you will see other planes/choppers that are likely to have reduce prices.  Here is the way that DCS manages their information releases over time.  Suddenly, a whole bunch of new planes/choppers are available  !  You will see periodic updates on a plane/chopper that show works-in-progress.  Additionally, they may also release new map modules.  You can also purchased assorted WW2 aircraft at a discounted price.  

Some heavily promoted future releases are the Apache chopper, the F-15 strike eagle, and the South Atlantic map.  The south Atlantic map will include the Falkland islands 

When you read the forms, you are likely to see @BIGNEWY.  This is one of ED's representatives that monitors and responds to the forum posts.  Additionally, you can email @BIGNEWY directly for any questions, suggestions, etc., you may have.  

And now to planning future purchases.  It sounds like you recently purchased a new computer.  Congratulations.  You might consider investing in rudder pedals, corded gaming headphones, a HOTAS joy stick, a battery backup, a gaming mouse, and a gaming monitor. I do not have gaming speakers because I either use the corded gaming headphone or my computer's speakers.  I know these items are expensive, but acquire them one item at a time.  

 Hopefully, we can met up one day online and fly together.  Again, welcome to DCS world.

Mike Force Team

[WinterH]

Su-25T is on the heavy side due to additional avionics and fuel it carries compared to the regular Su-25. So it takes some careful flying but not too bad really.

It features no radar, it has the Shkval TV sighting system, where a camera on the nose can provide you with a magnified view of an area, and lase that point for your missiles.

HUD visibility can differ from module to module and depends on the lighting conditions in the mission, but you can expect better visual quality on HUDs of other aircraft, all newer and higher fidelity than the free Su-25T.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, swaps said:

Thanks, will have to look up how to trim this plane

 

Here is an old guide (I don't know who is the original author) that may help you a bit, as it is shorter than the official manual.

Su-25T Essentials v01.pdf

[Boosterdog]

@swaps dont forget the free trials and the 50% newcomer discount offer if its still running

[draconus]

3 hours ago, Mike Force Team said:

I would suggest waiting about purchasing the F-14.  It is hard to fly and tends to experience flat spins.

This is one of the best modules and most realistically modeled aircraft in DCS. What did you do to her to end up so badly in a spin?

@swaps you might want to reset/recenter your headtracking to get a proper HUD view. Otherwise make a screenshot of your default view.

Edited February 19, 2022 by draconus

[Tucker Fleming]

And don't forget the tutorials, they are helpful and informative.

[3WA]

Lol, I wouldn't call the Su-25 easy to fly.  She likes to stall at low speed.  Try not to put too many weapons on her at once, as it REALLY weighs her down.

If you're into attack aircraft, try the A-10C.  It fly's a lot better IMO.

[draconus]

2 hours ago, 3WA said:

She likes to stall at low speed.  Try not to put too many weapons on her at once, as it REALLY weighs her down.

Isn't it true for all aircraft?

[swaps]

On 2/20/2022 at 5:11 AM, 3WA said:

Lol, I wouldn't call the Su-25 easy to fly.  She likes to stall at low speed.  Try not to put too many weapons on her at once, as it REALLY weighs her down.

If you're into attack aircraft, try the A-10C.  It fly's a lot better IMO.

I have only been using the practice dog fight.  only managed to shoot the 2 A10's down once. as soon As I am about to lock them up I end up stalling lol

[Mike Force Team]

@Swaps.  Here is something else that might affect your flying the SU-25.  It is the internet speed and internet connectivity.  If possible, use a hardwired connection directly to your computer.  I recommend using either Cat 5e or Cat 6 ethernet cable.  If you want to go wireless, I recommend going with a high-end gaming stand alone router that is either Wi-Fi 6 or Wi-Fi 6e.  The high-end routers will likely cost $500-$800.  Another choice is to buy the top-of-the-line cable modem router from your cable provider.  The advantage with using the cable company's modem with wifi router is that you have 24/7 technical support.  On the other hand, you can purchase the cable company's high-end cable modem with Wi-Fi router outright.  In some instances, the cable company might allow you to spread the purchase over a few months.

MFT

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, swaps said:

I have only been using the practice dog fight.  only managed to shoot the 2 A10's down once. as soon As I am about to lock them up I end up stalling lol

I used it for A/G missions and didn’t have any problems at all  … never even tought on using it as a dogfighter.

[Dragon1-1]

Su-25T is a pig. The hump makes it draggy, additional avionics make it heavy, and most of the time you're carrying more weapons than it's reasonable, compounding the issues. It's not a dogfighter at all, you have to be very careful maneuvering with it, and you have to keep your speed up. You don't want to be turning hard at all, climb gently, make smooth, coordinated turns and always remember to trim it. Lack of a clickable cockpit actually makes setting up advanced weapons harder. You need to plan well ahead and make slow, deliberate attacks. Go in, launch, turn cold as soon as you hit, gain some distance and turn back. Be sure to try the tutorial missions, they explain how to use everything. Target spotting is gonna be hard, since you have no radar, just EO systems and, if you've got a big monitor (sounds like you don't) visual spotting.

TBH, I enjoyed the regular Su-25 more. It's much easier to fly, it can actually turn a little, can dogfight other slow jets, and even when loaded up it still flies well. It's still FC3 (hope we'll get it full fidelity someday), but it's actually quite fun. Su-25T, well, it can fight, but it's never gonna be my first choice unless I hard to do SEAD for the Russian side (and then only because it'd be my only choice, we're unlikely to ever get a proper Russian SEAD plane).

Edited February 21, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[statrekmike]

So a big thing to keep in the back of your mind as you fly the Su-25T (or even the other version of the Su-25 that comes with the Flaming Cliffs 3 pack) is that it is best seen as a sort of Russian equivalent to the A-10 and as such, it will have a similar focus on ground attack, anti-tank, and CAS. It isn't a dogfighter. It isn't going to be used in air to air combat. Any air to air capability it has is (like the A-10) purely defensive in nature and really only will be effective if the attacker makes a lot of mistakes and leaves you a opening to attack. If you want air to air combat, the Su-25 isn't really going to give you that experience in any meaningful level. Also. The Su-25 does not have a radar.

 In regards to stalling issues. The Su-25 is a heavy airplane to begin with and the more weapons you carry, the heavier it gets. This has a direct impact on your speed and maneuverability. If you are experiencing a lot of stalls, you need to have a lighter touch on the controls and not turn so aggressively that you stall the airplane. You will also have problems if you overload the aircraft with weapons. This is a pretty common mistake but if you look at real-life images of combat aircraft on missions, they generally carry a lot less than you are likely to see on a DCS public server. 

 

  Finally. Viewing targets is a complicated topic but there are two things to think about that might help.

 

  1.) While it isn't listed in the minimum requirements, DCS really does require some kind of head tracking of some sort. In my own experience, the only really viable long-term solution is IR LED based tracking (outside of VR but that only really matters if you own a VR headset to begin with and have a system that can run DCS in VR at a worthwhile level). There are face tracking options if you only have a webcam but even in the best possible circumstances, face tracking has a lot of problems and a lot of limitations. IR LED based tracking is a lot more reliable and is possible to do on a pretty tight budget. You can build your own setup (just look up "DIY IR headtracking" on Google). You can buy a inexpensive setup made by a small company (like Trackhat or Delanclip) or you could get TrackIR itself (which can get pricey). 

 

  2.) It is easy for us simmers to get really fixated on using the various targeting pod, datalink, or other related sensors to find ground targets but in doing so, we only really make things harder for ourselves. Since the Su-25 is a close support aircraft first and foremost (like the A-10), a lot of target spotting is going to be done with your own eyes since the sensors on the airplane are not really meant for searching wide areas for targets and instead are more about target designation once you have spotted them with your own eyes or with the help of some other asset (JTAC or the like). 

 To be clear. Spotting targets by eye isn't easy. It is a skill that needs to be practiced and developed. At first you will struggle to find targets but as you start learning what to look for, it gets easier. Obviously IR headtracking is a big deal here since struggling with view controls while also trying to fly and spot targets by eye isn't going to be very pleasant. 

 

  

[frostycab]

16 hours ago, Mike Force Team said:

@Swaps.  Here is something else that might affect your flying the SU-25.  It is the internet speed and internet connectivity.  If possible, use a hardwired connection directly to your computer.  I recommend using either Cat 5e or Cat 6 ethernet cable.  If you want to go wireless, I recommend going with a high-end gaming stand alone router that is either Wi-Fi 6 or Wi-Fi 6e.  The high-end routers will likely cost $500-$800.  Another choice is to buy the top-of-the-line cable modem router from your cable provider.  The advantage with using the cable company's modem with wifi router is that you have 24/7 technical support.  On the other hand, you can purchase the cable company's high-end cable modem with Wi-Fi router outright.  In some instances, the cable company might allow you to spread the purchase over a few months.

MFT

I'm very sorry, but I have to ask why you think any of this would help Swaps with learning to fly the SU-25. Reading through his post it seems that all of his issues are down to elementary control of the aircraft, not internet connectivity. I do agree with you insofar as preferring a wired connection between my PC and router, but DCS doesn't seem to be much of a bandwidth hog. I'm able to fly on busy servers using the supplied crappy router from my UK ISP on a 12Mb/s connection with no connectivity issues at all. Where DCS is concerned my CPU and GPU give up long before any connection problems rear their ugly heads. I do not believe that spending between $500 and $800 on a high-end router is going to help alleviate any of his problems, especially if he's only trying to fly a simple SP mission.

@swaps I have to admit I haven't been near the SU-25 in a few years, but I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark at something that could be the issue. You mentioned that you've been trying a dogfight mission with it. How hard are you manoeuvring? The SU-25 wasn't designed with dogfighting in mind. You can down helos easily enough, and the A-10 isn't a substantial problem, but you won't want to get into a furball with planes like the F-16. 

The aircraft is underpowered for jinking around in a dogfight, but like all aircraft it will bleed airspeed very quickly if you start yanking on the stick. Rolling isn't going to be an issue, but trying to pitch too violently is probably responsible for your stalls. As you know, pulling hard on the stick will cause the nose to rise up, but the aircraft is already carrying significant momentum heading forward, so when the nose lifts it increases the angle of attack of the airflow over the wings. That in turn increases drag. Violent pitch inputs such as those you might be tempted to make during a dogfight significantly increase this effect. Even an agile aircraft like the Viper will start giving you stall warnings very quickly if you're pulling too hard. It's not something I consciously think about when I'm flying, but I probably rarely go past 75% pitch deflection on my stick in normal situations in any aircraft, as any more will just throw away too much speed.

Speed is life, and if you throw it all away trying to get your nose onto a target then they'll be sending the medals to your next of kin. If you need to bank and yank then keep one eye on your airspeed at all times. If it starts to drop then you probably need to do one of 3 things: 

1. Add power, but I'm guessing you're probably at full throttle at this point anyway.

2. Lower the nose.

3. Decrease backpressure on the stick to ease off the turn. 

It might help you to load up a free flight mission and just practice your tight turns. Fly some tight level turns over an airfield or other landmark so you have a frame of reference, entering the turns at different speeds and just see how much stick input you can put in before you lose speed and when you start to stall.

If you've flown gliders IRL then you've probably heard the phrase most pilots know: "Aviate. Navigate. Communicate." Aviate being the highest priority. Flying the plane comes before everything else, because if you ignore that then you're not going to get the kill.

[swaps]

Yes, its the preset dog fight I am using against the 2 A10's. You cannot hit them with a missile as they approach you as it just shoots past them and they climb so I turn and try to catch them from the rear. This is were the stalls happen. I can do a slow turn and climb but then they have vanished and I spend 10 mins looking for them. Missiles see ineffective. Im firing for 4 to 6 miles. fired 4 at 1 plane and not hit ! I have a wired internet connection and its 60 -70MB so not a problem with any lag. I just find it hard to keep interest with this plane as I am constantly out trying to catch planes which can just climb and leave me to stall.

 

Thanks Alan

[Rudel_chw]

48 minutes ago, swaps said:

I just find it hard to keep interest with this plane

try to catch sam batteries , or enemy armor, instead of other aircrafts, as that is not the Su-25T role.

[frostycab]

1 hour ago, swaps said:

Yes, its the preset dog fight I am using against the 2 A10's. You cannot hit them with a missile as they approach you as it just shoots past them and they climb so I turn and try to catch them from the rear. This is were the stalls happen. I can do a slow turn and climb but then they have vanished and I spend 10 mins looking for them. Missiles see ineffective. Im firing for 4 to 6 miles. fired 4 at 1 plane and not hit ! I have a wired internet connection and its 60 -70MB so not a problem with any lag. I just find it hard to keep interest with this plane as I am constantly out trying to catch planes which can just climb and leave me to stall.

 

Thanks Alan

Unless you're heavily loaded with bombs then I wouldn't expect you to have problems keeping up with the A-10. The 'hog won't get much above 300kt in level flight at the best of times, and isn't suited to rapid climbs or aerobatic flight. Indeed, it has it's own struggles when it comes to making very tight turns before running into angle of attack limits. I suspect that if the A-10 is outclimbing you then it's probably down to each aircraft's airspeed when starting the climb. Easing off the stick in a turn to save 30 or 40kt before entering a climb can give you much more altitude gain before you reach the stall.

Dogfighting is very much dependant on knowing the limits of your own aircraft as well as your opponents. With time you'll be able to recognise when your target is going to outturn you or loop right over you. The trick in these situations is to see the bigger picture, anticipating what he might do next and then positioning yourself to be in the best position when he gets there, while also understanding that he's going to be changing things up along the way to try and do the same thing to you. 

I'm utterly out of touch with the air-to-air missile capabilities of the SU-25, so can't comment on why your missiles aren't finding their mark, but rather than jumping right in and becoming frustrated with dogfighting it might benefit you to fly a few training sorties with drone targets, allowing you to get used to the systems and become more familiar with optimum missile launch parameters. 

Whatever happens, don't get disheartened! DCS has a steep leaning curve. I came to it after nearly 30 years of flying other sims, including study-level aircraft in FSX and P3d, and after a few weeks of trying to learn the A-10C I walked away for a couple of years. When I tried again and worked my way through the problems I was having I was hooked. What I've found over the last decade or so is that most of thee planes are very easy to fly, but very challenging to use as they are intended: weapon platforms. Don't give up, because there will always be someone around here ready to help. 

[swaps]

I have tried it but really have no idea how to navigate at this point. will have to have a look on youtube and see can I get some pointers.. I have tried the ground attack mode but all you see is smoke so I have no idea what I am firing it. it like know where a dart board is and then putting a blind fold on to hit double top !

[draconus]

@swapsThere are training missions for Su-25T that both answer your questions and let you practice in a controlled pace. If you're more into air combat just apply for trial and go with any fighter you like.

And, no, you don't need anything with "gaming" label on it or some overpriced router.

btw: Have you set flaps to maneuvering position in that Su-25T dogfight?

You're down low in dense air with short range missiles - 4 km is plenty. It may be even way too far in chase aspect. They launch a lot of flares so your heaters go for it sometimes.

Edited February 23, 2022 by draconus

[swaps]

Thanks Have started using the training elements. I find the helicopters a lot easier to hit than the A10's. The jet does not seem that bad when your chasing things that cant go vertical on you. will get some more practice in and try and get another SSD in ASAP and then I can think about a proper fighter.