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When will we see a major update to the games Core mechanics?


ak22

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I feel this game has been out for long time and needs a major improvement with the core mechanics, Its great getting new models but the gameplay  itself  has not seen a major improvements in years. Just to list a few of things I would like to see. 

 

  • Major AI Overhaul/improvements especially in multiplayer
  • Dynamic campaign 
  • Ability to save mid mission 
  • Improvements on current maps rather than new maps for example Persia gulf is missing some of the most important military base on the region and country's..  (Syria is a great example of how to make a map)
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1 hour ago, ak22 said:

I feel this game has been out for long time and needs a major improvement with the core mechanics, Its great getting new models but the gameplay  itself  has not seen a major improvements in years. Just to list a few of things I would like to see. 

 

  • Major AI Overhaul/improvements especially in multiplayer
  • Dynamic campaign 
  • Ability to save mid mission 
  • Improvements on current maps rather than new maps for example Persia gulf is missing some of the most important military base on the region and country's..  (Syria is a great example of how to make a map)

Sorry you are talking nonsense about no major core developments. 

We have a dedicated team on the core of DCS over half of the dev team. 

Modules and terrains have their own dedicated dev teams. 

AI is constantly being worked on, improved, and bugs fixed. 

Dynamic campaign is planned but will take time. 

 

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6 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Sorry you are talking nonsense about no major core developments. 

We have a dedicated team on the core of DCS over half of the dev team. 

Modules and terrains have their own dedicated dev teams. 

AI is constantly being worked on, improved, and bugs fixed. 

Dynamic campaign is planned but will take time. 

 

What are these major improvements to the core gameplay mechanic/AI have i missed  over the past few years? 

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Only issue I have is AI wingmen continue to be of marginal utility.

And a DC is long overdue.  Dunno why ED cant just use the bubble concept that F4.0 did.

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23 minutes ago, ak22 said:

What are these major improvements to the core gameplay mechanic/AI have i missed  over the past few years? 

You can read it yourself in previous newsletters, you can also see all of the work we do on core issues in each changelog, making it sound like we do not work on the core of DCS is false. 

Off the top of my head 
clouds,
wwii damage modelling,
new effects,
wwii AI behaviour 
AIM-120 improvements
propeller improvements
road side fobs and farps
weapons and loadout improvements

I could go on. 

Again to claim there have been no improvements is nonsense.  

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On 2/19/2022 at 4:26 PM, BIGNEWY said:

You can read it yourself in previous newsletters, you can also see all of the work we do on core issues in each changelog, making it sound like we do not work on the core of DCS is false. 

Off the top of my head 
clouds,
wwii damage modelling,
new effects,
wwii AI behaviour 
AIM-120 improvements
propeller improvements
road side fobs and farps
weapons and loadout improvements

I could go on. 

Again to claim there have been no improvements is nonsense.  

I never said their has been no improvements, while these are some great changes I don't see them and major changes to the game core mechanics/ AI  changes. For example clouds they look great but does not effect the AI visibility.

Multiplayer servers seem to still struggle with moving ground units and pathfinding/ performance issues, so most servers have  static units to bomb. It does not feel like a warzone.

 


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We have some AI pathfinding issues reported, hopefully we can get to the bottom of the issue soon. 

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I can absolutely see why ED are defensive about this. They have updated a lot of the visual aspects of the core over the years and what they've done generally deserves praise (love the clouds). But I suspect that's not what the OP, and others commenting elsewhere are talking about. The gameplay loops within DCS haven't really changed very much, the AI is still somewhat dodgy (being generous) in many different scenarios and as a result, while the IN AIRCRAFT experience is great, the external experience can get old quite quickly. Once you've mastered a given aircraft's start up, which buttons to press in which sequence etc, and systems, there's not a whole lot to do with it that isn't frustrating to do. 

BN, could you maybe give an example of what a week in the shoes of the core team looks like at some point. How much of their time is spent reviewing bugs, how much developing new engine capabilities, how much is spent on new models or whatever. Doesn't have to be what they are doing next week, I mean just a representative "average" week to understand better what they're up against?

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5 hours ago, SoW Reddog said:

 The gameplay loops within DCS haven't really changed very much, the AI is still somewhat dodgy (being generous) in many different scenarios and as a result, while the IN AIRCRAFT experience is great, the external experience can get old quite quickly. Once you've mastered a given aircraft's start up, which buttons to press in which sequence etc, and systems, there's not a whole lot to do with it that isn't frustrating to do. 9

This is pretty much how I feel I have stopped looking forward to new modules after buying many of them and noticed I'm just learning the module completing the campaign (if it ships with any)  after that the gameplay is not that great and not much has changed over the years. 

I feel more focus is needed on gameplay & AI, I understand ED have different people working on modules, maps, AI etc.   But it seems to be more focused on brining out new modules to keep the money coming in and less on the actual gameplay. 

 


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1 hour ago, SoW Reddog said:

I can absolutely see why ED are defensive about this. They have updated a lot of the visual aspects of the core over the years and what they've done generally deserves praise (love the clouds). But I suspect that's not what the OP, and others commenting elsewhere are talking about. The gameplay loops within DCS haven't really changed very much, the AI is still somewhat dodgy (being generous) in many different scenarios and as a result, while the IN AIRCRAFT experience is great, the external experience can get old quite quickly. Once you've mastered a given aircraft's start up, which buttons to press in which sequence etc, and systems, there's not a whole lot to do with it that isn't frustrating to do. 

BN, could you maybe give an example of what a week in the shoes of the core team looks like at some point. How much of their time is spent reviewing bugs, how much developing new engine capabilities, how much is spent on new models or whatever. Doesn't have to be what they are doing next week, I mean just a representative "average" week to understand better what they're up against?

That's about it, you explained it quite well and with respect.

I could add that it is just as frustrating when you use the mission editor and is forced to bug hunt the scenario for days, sometimes weeks, simply because most things just don't work like they should. It completely kills the immersion that one could have had if the mission had been put together and worked out of the box on first try. Every scenario would be something new even for the scenario creator.

 

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8 hours ago, SoW Reddog said:

I can absolutely see why ED are defensive about this. They have updated a lot of the visual aspects of the core over the years and what they've done generally deserves praise (love the clouds). But I suspect that's not what the OP, and others commenting elsewhere are talking about. The gameplay loops within DCS haven't really changed very much, the AI is still somewhat dodgy (being generous) in many different scenarios and as a result, while the IN AIRCRAFT experience is great, the external experience can get old quite quickly. Once you've mastered a given aircraft's start up, which buttons to press in which sequence etc, and systems, there's not a whole lot to do with it that isn't frustrating to do. 
 

I have to say I feel quite similar. I feel like the mod's response to the OP was rather harsh - he wasn't asking about 'roadside fobs and farps' or propeller physics, he was asking about the core game. For me, that is the AI primarily, among other things. ED can tell us it is being 'constantly' improved, but from my perspective, it behaves the same as it did a few years ago and makes the same insane decisions. Only recently I had an entire flight of F-15E's fly in circles and one by one crash into a mountain.

I've stated this before... if anyone has played DCS Liberation, then they know just how much the AI can let you down. So, if ED develops a dynamic campaign and releases it without a total overhaul of the AI... it's going to be a complete disaster.

Sadly, I watched Jabber's recent Youtube video and found myself agreeing with much of it. I still support ED, and won't stop playing any time soon. But mostly that's because of lack of an alternative. I thoroughly believe DCS needs a brand new codebase if it's to survive in the future, and to stop the endless cycle of bugs and allow faster/more efficient improvements to the sim.

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10 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

You can read it yourself in previous newsletters, you can also see all of the work we do on core issues in each changelog, making it sound like we do not work on the core of DCS is false. 

Off the top of my head 
clouds,
wwii damage modelling,
new effects,
wwii AI behaviour 
AIM-120 improvements
propeller improvements
road side fobs and farps
weapons and loadout improvements

I could go on. 

Again to claim there have been no improvements is nonsense.  

Maybe I misunderstand the definition of core improvements and with all due respect,  every single one of the items you listed resulted in worse performance in term’s of fps (in a vr environment admittedly). 

Not sure I’d be so aggressively attacking the op and tooting your hooter…..
 

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3 minutes ago, stormrider said:

Thank you, that's the first thing I though: he was pretty harsh with OP.

There are some good things that came or are reportedly coming to Core, like Weather and FLIR, but so many other "major core improvements", that for the time being are just words, like Vulkan and major improvements to VR, Dynamic Campaing, AI, EW module, Damage modeling and so on.

I also completely agree with OP that the older maps needs some revitalization. The Strait of Hormuz for instance, I was bashed pretty badly with warning points when asked, in the past, for its completion.

Perhaps ED moderation could reevaluate their posture towards the community, to be more like community managers and less like authorities.

There was nothing harsh about what I said, but I will push back when something being said is incorrect. 

We have rules here on the forum and they are the same for everyone, you should know that better than anyone. Dont derail this thread complaining about moderation or us feel free to PM me. 

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Hi @BIGNEWY,

I have some constructive questions in respect to the core of the game.

1. What does exactly Vulkan support mean for us? Aside from using more modern API which is benefit for ED developers, what is the benefit on player side? (e.g. old/new GPUs, VR, etc.)

2. What about the multicore: is the multicore ED has announced just to feed the GPU, or you also refer to single thread LUA simulation?

3. What about the multithreading for Lua? Although lua natively does not offer multithreading, it does not mean it can not be made capable. It appears there are libraries out there (e.g. lua lanes), than can actually provide multi-threaded environment. Did development team consider this?

It seems that this caps the maximal number of players on servers.

I did take a close look in particular into the call stack an it is not uncommon for DCS to invoke lua => c++ => lua again.

4. Also why does the server software need to query joysticks? (which it does fairly frequently!)

5. Also when we are speaking about servers: populated servers at the moment struggle to keep up with 50+ players. Can you provide a way to export important in-game metrics: such as e.g. :

- time spent in AI operations,

- time spent in rendering,

- frame rate,

- number of players,

- top/minimum player latency...?

- memory allocation in lua/c++

- how much each particular airplane affect the processing times? (e.g. you get a new module, and it is not optimized, people want to be able to troubleshoot this)

Total absence of these feature (point me if I wrong) is causing the server owners to throw significant cache on servers just to gamble that the hardware they purchase/rent maybe has the single thread performance that can actually process everything without causing lag on server side.

Recently this has caused certain very popular server and publicly very exposed server, not to be able to achieve full capacity, when the new mission got introduced.


Edited by okopanja
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22 hours ago, ak22 said:

I feel this game has been out for long time and needs a major improvement with the core mechanics, Its great getting new models but the gameplay  itself  has not seen a major improvements in years. Just to list a few of things I would like to see. 

 

  • Major AI Overhaul/improvements especially in multiplayer

Major AI update on progress or released:

  • General Flight Model to AI aircraft by AI team. 
  • Human motion model with intelligent behavior for infantry and deck crews.
  • New WWII AI Engagement logic

 

22 hours ago, ak22 said:
  • Dynamic campaign 

Dynamic campaing has on progress, from some years ago.

22 hours ago, ak22 said:
  • Ability to save mid mission 

No planned yet.

22 hours ago, ak22 said:
  • Improvements on current maps rather than new maps for example Persia gulf is missing some of the most important military base on the region and country's..  (Syria is a great example of how to make a map)

Persian Gulf get two expansions before complete. ED never planned bases on Saudí Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain or Omam. The map was centred on 2011–2012 Strait of Hormuz dispute.

Other

  • FLIR tecnology, first coming on AH-64D and Ugra Media Syria map, other modules and 3rd party modules on progress to be updated with FLIR API.
  • Multicore
  • Air-to-Air Missile Improvements
  • Phase I comunication System (Phase II and III on progress).
  •  Weather dynamic system (Fog)
  • WWII Propeller Technology
  • Damage Model - Fire Effects 
  • New Clouds (Phase 0 new weather engine)

 

 


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Major AI update on progress or released:

  • General Flight Model to AI aircraft by AI team. 
  • Human motion model with intelligent behavior for infantry and deck crews.
  • New WWII AI Engagement logic

 

Dynamic campaing has on progress, from some years ago.

No planned yet.

Persian Gulf get two expansions before complete. ED never planned bases on Saudí Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain or Omam. The map was centred on 2011–2012 Strait of Hormuz dispute.

Other

  • FLIR tecnology, first coming on AH-64D and Ugra Media Syria map, other modules and 3rd party modules on progress to be updated with FLIR API.
  • Multicore
  • Air-to-Air Missile Improvements
  • Phase I comunication System (Phase II and III on progress).
  •  Weather dynamic system (Fog)
  • WWII Propeller Technology
  • Damage Model - Fire Effects 
  • New Clouds (Phase 0 new weather engine)

 

 

 

Wow, just wow…

You guys are right. What an awesome stack of improvements!!! Just took a while for me to get through them frame by frame at 30fps to notice. My bad. But your right, ultimately I’m not being forced to be a consumer of your product.
Oh, and they’re  just military drills…..

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9 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

Wow, just wow…

You guys are right. What an awesome stack of improvements!!! Just took a while for me to get through them frame by frame at 30fps to notice. My bad. But your right, ultimately I’m not being forced to be a consumer of your product.
Oh, and they’re  just military drills…..

Silverdragon is a user just like you are, he has just showed some examples of our work. We get that you may not agree, we get that you want more and you want it fast, but please keep the feedback civil, sarcasm does not always carry well on text format. 
Thank you

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10 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Silverdragon is a user just like you are, he has just showed some examples of our work. We get that you may not agree, we get that you want more and you want it fast, but please keep the feedback civil, sarcasm does not always carry well on text format. 
Thank you

My apologies.  

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8 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

My apologies.  

no problem.

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My wish is that wish lists were exactly that. A list of things someone personally wants, throw it out there and see if there is a consensus. No one speaks for others, the community is diverse.

Opening up with accusations regarding development or direction just diverts the discussion away from the list and the thread just becomes valueless to ED and the community.

I would absolutely say +1 to a save game feature mid mission if anyone remembers what the wish list was...

 

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13 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

So, if ED develops a dynamic campaign and releases it without a total overhaul of the AI... it's going to be a complete disaster.

Someone recently pointed me towards a quote from ED regarding a dynamic campaign which was "going to come later". The quote was from 1999 and related to Flanker 2. I know they say things take time but... 😄

If the "updates" as shown by the absolute wall of text and links posted by dragon that I couldn't be bothered to go through item by item were just "this is being worked on, it will come later", then I'd put it in the same category as unicorns and faeries until it eventually arrives. All we can concretely discuss is by what HAS been delivered.

Since we're talking wishlists, I'd like a roadmap. Sadly we already have that asked, answered and final.

 

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Try and enjoy what we already have, it will make it more enjoyable for you. We have lots of features and improvements to come, but they will take time, if you are not the patient type it will be harder for you. 

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1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

Try and enjoy what we already have, it will make it more enjoyable for you. We have lots of features and improvements to come, but they will take time, if you are not the patient type it will be harder for you. 

Oh absolutely agree. I'm enjoying the free core game with it's obvious limitations and issues described above and the free A4 for what they are. I bitterly regret buying into the hype of the paid modules that I've bought in the past and won't ever do that again following your own advice until they are demonstrably out of Early Access, and bug free/feature complete. How that helps ED in the long run I'm not sure, but you certainly are well placed to know best. In the meantime I look forward to the fabled day when the AI rewrite, the multicore support, the dynamic campaign and the game play changes happen as patiently as I can.

Btw, did you see my direct question above? If not, I'll quote it here.
 

22 hours ago, SoW Reddog said:

BN, could you maybe give an example of what a week in the shoes of the core team looks like at some point. How much of their time is spent reviewing bugs, how much developing new engine capabilities, how much is spent on new models or whatever. Doesn't have to be what they are doing next week, I mean just a representative "average" week to understand better what they're up against?

I do think that this might help quantify and illustrate the hard work your team are doing on these issues. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

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Will have a think about it, but the team are very busy and even doing a report about what we are doing takes time away from other tasks.

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