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When will we see a major update to the games Core mechanics?


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12 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

An issue  I'm going  to predict now is that more modules aren't needed. While there are modules in the pipeline that I'm almost certainly going to buy, I don't really need them to indulge my hobby.
 

Don't underestimate the collector part to it. There are exceptions of course, younger players or people that otherwise really struggle with finances for various reasons, but for a huge amount of players (probably middle aged males), 50 bucks every few month for a new module isn't really that much money for a hobby. I could name you a few common ones that are A LOT more expensive. When I was young, I collected model cars. They did cost around the same amount of money, collected dust and I couldn't sit into them.... 😁

Long story short. There are certainly people who will buy modules even if they have barely the time to do them justice. I certainly will.

I just love to explore a "new" aircraft. Wonder about the advancements in tech (software) on the one hand and the weird old fashioned technology of the times on the other hand - even if I can't fly a module regulary, I will from time to time jump in and give it a ride!


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6 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

As mentioned, try to enjoy what we have, and what we are improving at the moment, there is no magic button to improve everything at once, it all takes time. 

I've been a fairly critical member lately. And I myself at least believe that is kinda deserved. But don't get me wrong I absolutely do enjoy what we have already. I've unfortunately come into a ton of free time recently, and have been playing quite a bit of DCS. It is absolutely the best there is in terms of aircraft depth and now days aircraft variety. I can and do Jump in a P-51 and escort bombers over France, and then fly a SEAD mission over Syria in an F-16. 

I'm critical because certain aspects are so good. If the core of the game can be brought up to the same standard then DCS would truly be without equal. But right now it's kinda unbalanced. The modules are freaking amazing. Even with most of the big ones being in early access that are pretty damn awesome. But the core, the environment they fly and fight in lags behind. I'm simply expressing my desire for that to change. 

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Just now, FlankerKiller said:

I've been a fairly critical member lately. And I myself at least believe that is kinda deserved. But don't get me wrong I absolutely do enjoy what we have already. I've unfortunately come into a ton of free time recently, and have been playing quite a bit of DCS. It is absolutely the best there is in terms of aircraft depth and now days aircraft variety. I can and do Jump in a P-51 and escort bombers over France, and then fly a SEAD mission over Syria in an F-16. 

I'm critical because certain aspects are so good. If the core of the game can be brought up to the same standard then DCS would truly be without equal. But right now it's kinda unbalanced. The modules are freaking amazing. Even with most of the big ones being in early access that are pretty damn awesome. But the core, the environment they fly and fight in lags behind. I'm simply expressing my desire for that to change. 

you have given your feedback and made it clear what you want, we can only hope to meet your expectations one day, for now we continue our work on many aspects of the core of DCS including the AI. 

thanks

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That reminds me of my SO constantly nagging me for some stupid <profanity> like sweeping the garage.....

"Honey, don't ask me again. I said, I'll do it! You don't have to remind me every six month...." 😁😂


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@BIGNEWY I think, most people - even the varying degrees of complainers - know that ED is working on all this stuff. It's just that it is sometimes hard to see the progress from the outside, let alone the amount of work and the obstacles you guys face. And since people are very passionate about DCS (which is good I think), they sometimes get frustrated and feel the need to express their concerns - even if it was done in a similar way and topic over and over again.

I feel, you guys do a great job of dealing with this stuff for the most part. Sometimes I already get annoyed by it as an uneffected observer, but than again I thing it's natural and when the complaints are brought forward in a friendly manner.... so be it.....

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20 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

you have given your feedback and made it clear what you want, we can only hope to meet your expectations one day, for now we continue our work on many aspects of the core of DCS including the AI. 

thanks

Good, honestly you guys pulled off a miracle of modul creation from 2018 till now. If you had told me in late 2017 that in the next fore years you won't have one 4th Gen fighter, you will have four, plus a modern attack helicopter.  I would have called you a damn lier right here in public this public forum. So I definitely do not doubt Egale Dynamics ability to shift gears and massively improve the core over the next few years. But we haven't seen those massive improvements yet. You know what you are planning. The rest of us really don't. We will see shortly what direction you decide to go. 

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21 minutes ago, Hiob said:

@BIGNEWY I think, most people - even the varying degrees of complainers - know that ED is working on all this stuff. It's just that it is sometimes hard to see the progress from the outside, let alone the amount of work and the obstacles you guys face. And since people are very passionate about DCS (which is good I think), they sometimes get frustrated and feel the need to express their concerns - even if it was done in a similar way and topic over and over again.

I feel, you guys do a great job of dealing with this stuff for the most part. Sometimes I already get annoyed by it as an uneffected observer, but than again I thing it's natural and when the complaints are brought forward in a friendly manner.... so be it.....


It all comes from passion for DCS so it is all good. Thanks for sticking with us.

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52 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

... But what I as a player want is a better game to fly those "new" modules in. It has been pointed out to me that this makes me irrelevant in this market. If that is true that is truly sad...

I enjoyed reading your comments, but highlighted just these two sentences because I think they form the thrust of the point your trying to make. I also believe the first sentence is important to ED as a company especially in terms of informing the direction it takes to serve its loyal customer base. Whether it is realized or not, I think most here want the same thing as you, and anyone trying to suggest your interests here makes you irrelevant is simply misinformed IMO.

I believe the improvements you are hoping for are coming, but my advice would be to keep the past separate from the future. I couldn't agree more though, it really doesn't matter which module I decide to open in DCS because I am equally amazed with all of them. And improving all the other aspect of DCS will only add to that amazement.   

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1 hour ago, Hiob said:

Don't underestimate the collector part to it. There are exceptions of course, younger players or people that otherwise really struggle with finances for various reasons, but for a huge amount of players (probably middle aged males), 50 bucks every few month for a new module isn't really that much money for a hobby. I could name you a few common ones that are A LOT more expensive. When I was young, I collected model cars. They did cost around the same amount of money, collected dust and I couldn't sit into them.... 😁

Long story short. There are certainly people who will buy modules even if they have barely the time to do them justice. I certainly will.

I just love to explore a "new" aircraft. Wonder about the advancements in tech (software) on the one hand and the weird old fashioned technology of the times on the other hand - even if I can't fly a module regulary, I will from time to time jump in and give it a ride!

 

+1. There is certainly a collector interest here for me, but with something like DCS where the player is taking part in competitive game play, its collector value gets a boost in at least two important ways IMO.

The first being the collector gets to also enjoy the feeling that he/she is also taking part in the continued development of the thing being collected.

The second is it provides an opportunity to improve your skill. There is a lot to be said about knowing your enemies strengths and weaknesses. Even if you never really master flying a 109, getting in one now and again can help you better understand what its like to chase and be chased by one.

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7 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Well, you have picked just aspects that have not changed ... I can pick aspects that actually have changed: On 2005 we didn't had clickable cockpits, we didn't had headtracking support (it appeared on 2010 with flaming cliffs 2), nor did we had VR support (it appeared on 2016), the graphics were just awful, and not comparable, as the screenshots below show.

 

The thing is, DCS is an evolutionary product, that advances bit by bit .. what you want is a completely new and re-done from scratch product.

 

59698-lock-on-modern-air-combat-windows-screenshot-going-down-after.jpg

59700-lock-on-modern-air-combat-windows-screenshot-engaging-tanks.jpg

That jet still dose not have a clickable cockpit. While yes they are core components head tracking and VR support where not really a thing back then. As far as graphics go that is just window dressing. But I never said nothing has changed or improved. I would not be posting if that was the case. I also wouldn't be playing DCS. Wishing for better Ai all around, an actual ATC system, at least something on par with what Super Carrier had for land bases. I know I'm probably going to loose more points for comparing DCS to Suoer Carrier. And wanting to see the dynamic weather actually completed is asking for new game. 

Since you posted the screen shots form the A-10A from LOMAC let me ask you a question. If you were to load up the A-10A in DCS as it stands today would you be truly 17 years ago and give it a go. Other then the graphics would you truly be impressed by the progress of the sim over nearly two decades? 

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7 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Since you posted the screen shots form the A-10A from LOMAC let me ask you a question. If you were to load up the A-10A in DCS as it stands today would you be truly 17 years ago and give it a go. Other then the graphics would you truly be impressed by the progress of the sim over nearly two decades?

 

I posted the A-10A because that was what we had in 2005 .. obviously I dont fly the A-10A anymore since in 2011 ED released the A-10C, and last year they released the Updated A-10C II, and yes, the A-10C II does impress me with the depth of its simulation.  The A-10A is still available, but I see no reason to use it instead of the A-10C II ... well, apart from trying to save a few dollars.

 

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15 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Since you posted the screen shots form the A-10A from LOMAC let me ask you a question. If you were to load up the A-10A in DCS as it stands today would you be truly 17 years ago and give it a go. Other then the graphics would you truly be impressed by the progress of the sim over nearly two decades? 

-PFM flight model

-AFM weapons

-Revised SAM modeling

-Multiple maps that are larger and more detailed

-New AI units

-New Player units if we're counting online play, even if you personally only have the A-10 you can fly with dozens of other aircraft today that were not around in 2005.

-Mission editor, including scripting - too many changes to list, this partially addresses things like AI since it's possible to make smart SAM sites in the ME. Mission variety is 100 times what it used to be. FARPS, airbase parking, fine control over some AI aspects, limited ability to edit maps, etc.

-JTAC

-Combined Arms (ie player controlled ground units, another way to address issues with AI modeling)

-AI improvements, you say things haven't changed but that's not really true. The overall AI modeling is similar but details have improved over time. One example that bothered me very much in LOMAC was that AWACS was all seeing. It would detect contacts 1000 miles away behind terrain. Now in DCS AWACS actually models a radar, even if only a simple one. You can hide from it and stealth aircraft are harder to detect. If I remember also, the basic stop and disperse behavior of AI ground units was added in DCS and not available in LOMAC. Did LOMAC feature the ammo carrying ground units that allow SAM's, etc to rearm?

-Weather, you're not too impressed by it it seems, but I remember when overcast made LOMAC run like a slideshow. Now we have infinitely better looking clouds that don't create nearly as many performance issues.

-Night lighting - I guess you might consider this part of graphics, but I feel like it's important to mention given that realistic visuals are an important part of flight simulation.

-New FLIR modeling, not sure if the FC3 aircraft have it yet, but if they do it should affect the A-10's IR Mav's.

-Advanced Radios - Not a FC3 feature granted, but this makes a huge difference in complex missions, not to mention it's more realistic. A subset of ASM which did not exist in the LOMAC days.

-Solid Trees, pretty noticeable that you could fly and shoot (or be shot at) through them in LOMAC. Making them solid did create some issues, but we also now have the ability to remove trees in the ME. Overall a mark of progress.

-Warehouse system, admittedly I don't use it very often but DCS added this and gave us some level of simulating resource availability and supply lines.

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3 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I posted the A-10A because that was what we had in 2005 .. obviously I dont fly the A-10A anymore since in 2011 ED released the A-10C, and last year they released the Updated A-10C II, and yes, the A-10C II does impress me with the depth of its simulation.  The A-10A is still available, but I see no reason to use it instead of the A-10C II ... well, apart from trying to save a few dollars.

The issues me and others are talking about have not one single thing to do with the depth or quality of the simulation. I'm glad you are satisfied as it is. I also very much enjoy DCS. But I could be much much much better. Maybe I'm a glass half empty type. Or maybe I got fed up with online cheating back in the day and got tired of chasing the AI around in endless vertical loops. And yes after like seven years they finally are working on that. Maybe I've been playing DCS far to long so the glacial pace of advance is frustrating me. Yes the aircraft models are nothing short of awesome. And yes there have been more improvements of late. Maybe it's time for me to try another product for a year or two and then see where things are. Because at this point there really isn't much ED can do other then massively increase the pace of core updates that can really satisfy myself as a customer. 

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3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

-PFM flight model

-AFM weapons

-Revised SAM modeling

-Multiple maps that are larger and more detailed

-New AI units

-New Player units if we're counting online play, even if you personally only have the A-10 you can fly with dozens of other aircraft today that were not around in 2005.

-Mission editor, including scripting - too many changes to list, this partially addresses things like AI since it's possible to make smart SAM sites in the ME. Mission variety is 100 times what it used to be. FARPS, airbase parking, fine control over some AI aspects, limited ability to edit maps, etc.

-JTAC

-Combined Arms (ie player controlled ground units, another way to address issues with AI modeling)

-AI improvements, you say things haven't changed but that's not really true. The overall AI modeling is similar but details have improved over time. One example that bothered me very much in LOMAC was that AWACS was all seeing. It would detect contacts 1000 miles away behind terrain. Now in DCS AWACS actually models a radar, even if only a simple one. You can hide from it and stealth aircraft are harder to detect. If I remember also, the basic stop and disperse behavior of AI ground units was added in DCS and not available in LOMAC. Did LOMAC feature the ammo carrying ground units that allow SAM's, etc to rearm?

-Weather, you're not too impressed by it it seems, but I remember when overcast made LOMAC run like a slideshow. Now we have infinitely better looking clouds that don't create nearly as many performance issues.

-Night lighting - I guess you might consider this part of graphics, but I feel like it's important to mention given that realistic visuals are an important part of flight simulation.

-New FLIR modeling, not sure if the FC3 aircraft have it yet, but if they do it should affect the A-10's IR Mav's.

-Advanced Radios - Not a FC3 feature granted, but this makes a huge difference in complex missions, not to mention it's more realistic. A subset of ASM which did not exist in the LOMAC days.

-Solid Trees, pretty noticeable that you could fly and shoot (or be shot at) through them in LOMAC. Making them solid did create some issues, but we also now have the ability to remove trees in the ME. Overall a mark of progress.

-Warehouse system, admittedly I don't use it very often but DCS added this and gave us some level of simulating resource availability and supply lines.

I could rebuttal, you could rebuttal, and we could do this ad nauseum. I'm honestly tired of it. I've never said that there has been no improvements. What I've said is there has been no major change to game play. And there most definitely has not. Flight  modeling has for sure improved. I'm honestly tired of this whole wish list idea. Obviously ED doesn't really pay that much attention. The same items have been requested over and over. The same basic features have been desired for littaraly decades. Some of its absolutely stunning. A lot of it still feels half baked. For a sim that is on its thirtieth year of development it definitely dose not feel as polished and complete as it should. But nothing I or anyone else says is going to change that. The Apache is a grate example. Helicopter is amazing right out of the box. But damn it would be cool if I could just tell my wingmen to attack the artillery while go for the tanks. But alas even that simple change has eluded the devs at Egale Dynamics. Maybe it's time I occupy my free time in some other way for awhile. Hope when I come back I'm impressed. 

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25 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I could rebuttal, you could rebuttal, and we could do this ad nauseum.

It wasn't so much a rebuttal as much as an attempt to answer your question, but I might have misunderstood it because of the typo.

25 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm honestly tired of it. I've never said that there has been no improvements. What I've said is there has been no major change to game play. And there most definitely has not.

I guess we disagree. I was listing major changes. The flight model in a flight sim is hugely important. Without PFM, the F-14, F-15, and F-16 would feel almost like the same plane. PFM makes them distinct and influences how you fly (gameplay) a mission.

25 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm honestly tired of this whole wish list idea. Obviously ED doesn't really pay that much attention. The same items have been requested over and over. The same basic features have been desired for littaraly decades.

There are certainly things that we've wanted for a long time but have not received, but I don't see how ED isn't listening. The Marianas map is very similar to something players had asked for earlier. ED is working on a DC because it's the most highly requested feature. There is a thread where ED asked for the most wanted ME improvement, you can go through the list and compare to what has been added in patch notes.

DCS absolutely has long standing issues and highly desired features that have not made it in the sim in years, but it's not because ED ignores us.

25 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Some of its absolutely stunning. A lot of it still feels half baked. For a sim that is on its thirtieth year of development it definitely dose not feel as polished and complete as it should. But nothing I or anyone else says is going to change that. The Apache is a grate example. Helicopter is amazing right out of the box. But damn it would be cool if I could just tell my wingmen to attack the artillery while go for the tanks. But alas even that simple change has eluded the devs at Egale Dynamics. Maybe it's time I occupy my free time in some other way for awhile. Hope when I come back I'm impressed. 

Leaving would at least make the changes and improvements that do get added stand out more. It doesn't seem like ED can really improve things any faster. It's unfortunate. I also share your frustration with wingmen and AI but with ED working on the DC, multicore, vulkan, world map, etc it becomes more understandable that something gets left out. DCS really is a huge project, I feel like it's more ambitious than at least 90% of other games. Yet it doesn't have the same popularity and thus doesn't generate the same resources. It's just the way it is with flight sims.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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15 minutes ago, Hiob said:

No news?

I thought it was two weeks?

LOL, but lets get serious. I assume they use some sort of agile planning aligned with some sort of a roadmap.

Likely this was in 2 weeks intervals in the past, but it seams its longer now. Typically they would select the stories within the time budget of the sprint's resources, with biggest bang for least effort, which means that optimization in core might be at the lowest priority, since it does not produce immediate effects.

But, delaying this will make things only worse, and its about the time that they sharpen an Ax, in order to be able to clear the woods in the future.  

It would be nice to have some news on this from ED.

 

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2 hours ago, okopanja said:

3 months later no news on this topic, so lets bump it a bit...

Given how little information content was given in the last interview (and even in contradiction), perhaps ED decides to share some news in the next interview(s)?

bumping wont make the work go faster. When we have news we will share it. 

thank you

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