Rocket video

[Mad Dog 762]

I am glad I was not the only one confused on the rocket video.  I understand the I Beam encompasses the elevation range of the rockets but I sure did not understand what all needed to be aligned where.  I guess I am too used to using a fixed HUD for aiming rather than the movable HMD.  So I would think if the diamond is fixed to the centerline of the aircraft you would just line it up with the I beam cursor and let fly but it does not seem to be that simple.  

[blitzattack]

I think  most confused me is the aim of head  tracker on the target ,wags didn`t tell us whether because of the wind (kenterky wind he mentioned?) or because of the helicopter aerodynamics

[Wychmaster]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb blitzattack:

I think  most confused me is the aim of head  tracker on the target ,wags didn`t tell us whether because of the wind (kenterky wind he mentioned?) or because of the helicopter aerodynamics

Maybe I get some things mixed up but here is how I understood it:

By selecting waypoint 2, he sets the target area. I am not sure if this step is mandatory for rocket employment (to calculate ranges?) or if one can skip that. Have to rewatch the video if Wags mentions something.

With your head, you tell the computer where the target is you actually want to hit. 

Now the part with aiming right of the I-Beam and Head-tracker:

He is flying a "centered Ball". That means that the helicopter is constantly drifting right. He also mentions that earlier in the video. Why this happens is explained in this really nice video from our community member vsTerminus:

Now because of that, the rockets will also have a velocity component to the right. So they will impact right from where the aircrafts nose is pointing the moment you push/pull the trigger. Or the other way around: You have to put your Nose left of where you want to hit to compensate for the drift. 

Since the I-beams alignment reference in this mode is the aircrafts nose direction, you have to align it with the head tracker. But I am not sure if you have to place it directly over the diamond. I guess you can also place it below or above as long as the I-beam is solid and aligned with the aircrafts nose. It's just easier to see if it is directly over the diamond.

As I said, thats how I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[AvroLanc]

1 hour ago, Wychmaster said:

Since the I-beams alignment reference in this mode is the aircrafts nose direction, you have to align it with the head tracker. But I am not sure if you have to place it directly over the diamond. I guess you can also place it below or above as long as the I-beam is solid and aligned with the aircrafts nose. It's just easier to see if it is directly over the diamond.

As I said, thats how I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

No. Not quite. The Headtracker diamond symbology is completely irrelevant to the weapon calculation itself. It plays no direct part. If the Headtracker diamond wasn’t there at all you could still do the attack using the I beam and LOS cross. It’s all you need. 
 

The Headtracker is a fixed reference though, like a Artificial Horizon. A bit like instrument flying, if your AH is not working, then you can still fly straight and level using the compass, altimeter and VSI, but you’d end up chasing the needles and you’d oscillate around until settled down. It’s the same with the I beam and LOS cross, the Headtracker provides a fixed nose position to include in your scan. The nose position is important - with rockets, you obviously need to point the nose at the target as a starting point. And then refine with LOS cross and Ibeam commands.

The confusion stems from having no fixed HUD, but once we have the Apache ourselves it’ll all make much more sense. 

[Wychmaster]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb AvroLanc:

No. Not quite. The Headtracker diamond symbology is completely irrelevant to the weapon calculation itself. It plays no direct part. If the Headtracker diamond wasn’t there at all you could still do the attack using the I beam and LOS cross. It’s all you need. 

Well, that seems to be the case for "coop mode", but not the "nav range mode" that was shown in the first two attack runs and that I was referring to.

Also Wags mentions the headtracker being the azimuth reference for nav range mode at the beginning. Watch the video from 6:16.

At 6:46 he says:

"... we are gonna be using that as our primary reference for aiming in azimuth..."

Additionally, if you look at the symbols the moment he shoots (~12:53), the I beam and headtracker are aligned, while the LOS cross is right of them. The missiles impact point is still more or less where the LOS cross was when he fired.

I am not a real Apache Pilot and can't tell how it works in the real thing. I can just repeat what was shown in the video and how it seems to be implemented in DCS right now.

 

Maybe @Wags could enlighten our confused minds. Also I am pretty sure we will get an explanatory video from Casmo soon

[AvroLanc]

54 minutes ago, Wychmaster said:

Well, that seems to be the case for "coop mode", but not the "nav range mode" that was shown in the first two attack runs and that I was referring to.

Also Wags mentions the headtracker being the azimuth reference for nav range mode at the beginning. Watch the video from 6:16.

At 6:46 he says:

"... we are gonna be using that as our primary reference for aiming in azimuth..."

Additionally, if you look at the symbols the moment he shoots (~12:53), the I beam and headtracker are aligned, while the LOS cross is right of them. The missiles impact point is still more or less where the LOS cross was when he fired.

I am not a real Apache Pilot and can't tell how it works in the real thing. I can just repeat what was shown in the video and how it seems to be implemented in DCS right now.

 

Maybe @Wags could enlighten our confused minds. Also I am pretty sure we will get an explanatory video from Casmo soon

Yeah, I've watched the video multiple times, and I have a good understanding of how it works.

When Wag's says 

''... we are gonna be using that as our primary reference for aiming in azimuth...",

he was making a comment on his technique, one of a few techniques to get you heading in the correct direction. It's worth noting that Wags made a mistake in not keeping the LOS cross (his head!) on the desired impact point.

There is no 'nav range mode'. You need a SIGHT, in this case P-HMD and you need a Ranging method, in this case Nav Range. But the ranging could come from MANUAL range, AUTO range, DEFAULT range, and later FCR range. (COOP can use LASER as well, but ignore that for now). For sight as P-HMD, it doesn't matter what the range source is....The LOS Cross always defines the target location. The rockets will fall at the LOS cross position, as they did, and as you point out. Obviously the range has to be more or less correct as well, which it was in the video.

Again the Headtracker shows the fixed forward nose position (see my post above), and quite logically the 3 symbols are all pretty much lined up for a forward firing rocket shot at that range. But the Headtracker symbology itself plays no part in the computed aiming calculation.

Edited February 21, 2022 by AvroLanc

[Wychmaster]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb AvroLanc:

There is no 'nav range mode'. You need a SIGHT, in this case P-HMD and you need a Ranging method, in this case Nav Range.

Yeah, that's why I put it into quotation marks. Still trying to catch up with all the terminology.

 

vor 23 Minuten schrieb AvroLanc:

For sight as P-HMD, it doesn't matter what the range source is....The LOS Cross always defines the target location. The rockets will fall at the LOS cross position, as they did, and as you point out. Obviously the range has to be more or less correct as well, which it was in the video.

Thanks, to confirm my suspicion  So to my understanding, the Nav point as acquisition source sets the range for the computation and the LOS cross sets the elevation. Then the rockets are fired in a way so that their ballistic trajectory crosses the LOS at the calculated distance. If you aim shorter, which is actually less distance, the rockets will impact slightly above the LOS cross because the "calculated" impact point lies somewhere below the earth (cause the LOS distance is shorter than the actual calculated distance).

That's about right?

vor 44 Minuten schrieb AvroLanc:

Again the Headtracker shows the fixed forward nose position (see my post above), and quite logically the 3 symbols are all pretty much lined up for a forward firing rocket shot at that range. But the Headtracker symbology itself plays no part in the computed aiming calculation.

Well, I never said it is part of the calculation. But it indicates in conjunction with the I-beam in which direction you need to correct your azimuth. If both are aligned, the azimuth is correct. Again, that's the way how it was demonstrated. Also, according to the video,  headtracker and I-beam do not need to be aligned with the LOS cross. They weren't in the video, still the rockets were pretty close to the LOS cross.  The azimuth difference seems to be caused by the side movement as described in my initial post. It should also be possible to align all 3 by just flying with a non-centered ball.

[Fakum]

OMG!!! I hope Casmo clears this all up sometime soon!

[whiteladder]

Have to say as Wags videos go (they are pretty good usually) this one is clear as mud.  I have watched a couple of times now and have no idea which of the various symbols he is actually lining up with the targets, Why is he aligning the extreme right side of the helmet tracker over the target area?

Edited February 21, 2022 by whiteladder

[AlphaOneSix]

This is one of those things where you just need to go out and do it a bunch and it will become much easier. Doesn't lend itself to learning by reading.

[Jayhawk1971]

Relax, people.  

I'm certain all of us will figure out how rockets work - along with everything else - as soon as we have access to the module. There may even be dedicated training missions. 

If you've ever managed to learn any module with MFDs in DCS, I'm positive you'll learn the Apache in the appropriate amount of time required. 

 

[Bri01]

I'm pretty sure I understand it. Once I'm in helicopter I'm sure we will figure it out without a problem

[Dannyvandelft]

It just seems more complicated than it needs to be. It seems if it had a CCIP pipper calculating windage and distance that would be all you need. Use the HMD to designate the target and the I-beam to show where the rockets hit. Line the two up, done.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[LooseSeal]

I'm sure this will be a very complicated module. But I shall proceed to learn it the same way I (pretty successfully) learned the A-10C - Get in. Start it up. Press random buttons and do random stuff until I figure out what does what. Manual, be damned!

[Wags]

Dear all,

I apologize that the video was not at clear as it should have been for some of you. It’s really a simple technique to quickly put rockets on target that was taught to me by a 64 pilot. Let me try again.

When shooting a rocket, you are solving for azimuth and range when aiming. Assuming that you are first set up for aerodynamic trim, you simply place the pointy, right end of the head tracker over the desired impact point. In the case of the video, it was the ACQ Source. You would not center the head tracker over the target because the flight path vector is off to the right, so you need to compensate azimuth aiming a smidge.

To set range, just move your head up and down to place the center of the I-beam at the range of the target. It does not need to be aligned in azimuth… that is what the head tracker is doing.

This is just one technique; I plan to create another video for rockets that will explain another technique that may make more sense to some of you. In the end, it’s the end result that matters most, and use the technique that works best for you.

Kind regards,

Matt

[Raptor9]

12 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It just seems more complicated than it needs to be. It seems if it had a CCIP pipper calculating windage and distance that would be all you need. Use the HMD to designate the target and the I-beam to show where the rockets hit. Line the two up, done.

A CCIP wouldn't be very effective for employing the rockets in their original purpose, which was aerial artillery.  A CCIP is a virtual symbology element that is superimposed over what is seen out the window in a 1:1 ratio of movement.  The Rocket Steering Cursor is not a 1:1 movement, and doesn't correspond to what is seen out the window. This allows it to provide more fine steering to the aircrew for delivering accurate fires with unguided rockets at longer ranges.  HMD-aimed rockets are less accurate; the more accurate method of aiming is using COOP while the CPG targets using the TADS.

[WobblyFlops]

3 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

which was aerial artillery

The more I learn about the Apache, the more sense it makes to kind of think about it as a flying MBT/MLRS as opposed to approaching it as a fighter jet that can hover and fly really slow.

[Dannyvandelft]

Dear all,
I apologize that the video was not at clear as it should have been for some of you. It’s really a simple technique to quickly put rockets on target that was taught to me by a 64 pilot. Let me try again.
When shooting a rocket, you are solving for azimuth and range when aiming. Assuming that you are first set up for aerodynamic trim, you simply place the pointy, right end of the head tracker over the desired impact point. In the case of the video, it was the ACQ Source. You would not center the head tracker over the target because the flight path vector is off to the right, so you need to compensate azimuth aiming a smidge.
To set range, just move your head up and down to place the center of the I-beam at the range of the target. It does not need to be aligned in azimuth… that is what the head tracker is doing.
This is just one technique; I plan to create another video for rockets that will explain another technique that may make more sense to some of you. In the end, it’s the end result that matters most, and use the technique that works best for you.
Kind regards,
Matt

Thank you for the picture, that makes it easier to understand. The wording "head tracker" might have added to the confusion as it's easy to assume it follows your head, instead of the "head" of the aircraft, like the Hornet's waterline symbol. So from the picture, the aircraft is slightly crabbing, and you adjusted for that by putting the I-beam left of the target you intended to hit. Makes much more sense now.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Wags]

At the start of the video, I made a point to explain and show the head tracker symbol. Perhaps a few missed that part.

Kind regards,

Matt

[AvroLanc]

3 hours ago, WobblyFlops said:

The more I learn about the Apache, the more sense it makes to kind of think about it as a flying MBT/MLRS as opposed to approaching it as a fighter jet that can hover and fly really slow.

This. An Apache isn’t the equivalent of a hovering Hornet or very slow Viper. Think of a flight of Apaches as equivalent to a company of M1 Abrams, similar both in capability and doctrinal employment. 

[Donglr]

And there it is,

Casmo's explanation

[Bri01]

Ok have this figured out, bring on the hellfire video

[MstrCmdr]

Yeah the biggest issue for us is the old "put the thing on the thing" mentality doesn't apply here fully.  I was struggling at first to understand all the symbology but Casmo helped.  Wags needed more than an introduction to fully explain it to us but it was still a great intro.  This actually might make rockets a bit more fun and accurate maybe.  I dunno.

[cow_art]

So, assuming LOS indicator is placed on the target (however it got there) this basically comes down to:

1. Maneuver helicopter until I-Beam is horizontally aligned with the 'LOS on Target' indicator

2. Fly straight and wait until the I-Beam turns from dashed to solid

3. Shoot 

?

Edited February 21, 2022 by cow_art
edit for clarity

[Ramsay]

12 minutes ago, cow_art said:

So this basically comes down to:

1. Maneuver helicopter until I-Beam is horizontally aligned with the 'LOS on Target' indicator

2. Fly straight and wait until the I-Beam turns from dashed to solid

3. Shoot 

?

Sort of, as I understand it ...

1.  Place LOS indicator on target
2. Manoeuvre helicopter so I-Beam is horizontally aligned with the 'LOS on Target' indicator
3. Fly straight and adjust pitch/wait until the LOS indicator is within the I-Beam's limits
( I-beam turns from dashed to solid, showing the rocket pods can articulate i.e. track the target's pitch)
4. Wait until within range, (Auto, manual, nav source, TADS or radar)
5. Shoot, adjust, shoot again ...