NAVY FLARE effectivness is LOW

[GumidekCZ]

Hi @BIGNEWY, can I ask about F/A-18C flares? MJU-8A/B, MJU-27A/B or MJU-38/B - the circular ones with 36mm diameter (1.42 inches) and length of 148mm (5.8 inches)

This type of flare sits roughly in the middle of BiG MJU-7 and small M206 flare, MJU-27 almost equal to MJU-7.

Its not perfect to compare flare effectivness by flare mass, but we have no other public data available other than size. I think than mass is giving us better estimation, how much heat is stored inside of it (I know that is not exactly true), but for estimation it is good enough.

M206:            190 g   (DCS "small" with half effectiveness)

MJU-7/B:        380g   (DCS "big" with full effectiveness)

MJU-8A/B:      270g   (also used by F-14)

MJU-27A/B:    360g   (also used by F-14)(flare made from Pyrophoric material)

MJU-38/B:      280g

More info about flares here:

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Flare_(countermeasure)

Edited August 23, 2022 by GumidekCZ

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

I don't have any technical info to share here, but the smaller flare obviously has a smaller IR signature than the larger one which is why it is less effective. 

[GumidekCZ]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I don't have any technical info to share here, but the smaller flare obviously has a smaller IR signature than the larger one which is why it is less effective. 

Thing is tho, that as in real world, even here in DCS there should be more than two sizes of flares. Right now the Hornet have the small ones, same as F-16 which is unrealistic. Would be nice if this proposal would be submitted for investigation to ED team. With may be result of FiX of Hornet flare effectiveness together with all DCS current or future US NAVY assets.

Edited February 22, 2022 by GumidekCZ

[Chuck_Henry]

There's more than size that goes into flares. Different flares burn in the UV and IR spectra in different proportions. Energy rise time (how quickly does it get hot) and kinematics of the flare (how quickly does it fall away from the aircraft) matter, too, when defeating the specific counter-countermeasures on a specific missile.

Anything else is classified at the Secret level or above, and I cannot get into that here. To what degree any of that is modeled in DCS, I can't tell.

[Northstar98]

Just now, Chuck_Henry said:

To what degree any of that is modeled in DCS, I can't tell.

Pretty much none of that is modelled, it's purely a probability (though different flares might have different modifiers).

[GumidekCZ]

Like in already mentioned thesis, somebody responsible for small flares found, that even the small have good performance at least under some conditions and they found, that using small flares can be benefitial. In DCS, the FLARE rejection simulation is so simple, that can Not simulate such physics and the benefit of small flares is "Zero" in DCS. See the results of RedKite YT vid, not even 2 flare program matched the results of big flares. So in mission with IR threat, you need to use roughly 3x more flares to negate same threat as before.
ED needs to change flare DEFENSIVE and PRE-EMPTIVE rejection simulation and create different flare profiles for each type used in DCS. Now the small ones M206 (for F-16/A-10) share same parameters as the MJU-8A/B, MJU-27A/B used in F/A-18C Hornet.
       M206    = explosive 130 grams / 195 grams total
MJU-8A/B   = explosive 154 grams / 270 grams total
MJU-27A/B = explosive 240 grams / 360 grams total (almost weight of the "big" flare MJU-7A/B - explosive substance 261g / 370g total - https://www.tara-aerospace.com/MJU-7A-B)

Edited August 23, 2022 by GumidekCZ

[GumidekCZ]

On 2/22/2022 at 4:44 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I don't have any technical info to share here, but the smaller flare obviously has a smaller IR signature than the larger one which is why it is less effective. 

If you ask anyone who knows about flares something ... he will just confirm my words, that physical SIZE of the flare have least effect on resulting countermeasure effectiveness among other parameters, like time and intensity of burning, radiated wavelengths, direction and speed of ejection ...

Edited May 7, 2023 by GumidekCZ

[GumidekCZ]

We're important topic for hornet defense, to adjust FLARE effectiveness where it should be. Now with current engine heat signitures (even when idle) is Hornet one of most vulnerable fighter, against IR guided missiles, in DCS. Flare cartridge depleted very quickly even with effective programs. On top of that, Preemptive flare defensive ejection is not simulated in DCS.

[FlankerKiller]

I don't think realistic modeling if IR countermeasures is possible in DCS. One its classified, two your prossers would melt. I haven't had any issues with the flares in the Hornet. They work fine against ground based IR missiles as well as forward and high aspect air to air shots. Depending on what missile your trying to defeat flares might not be much use.  Especially from a rear aspect shot. 

[GumidekCZ]

@FlankerKiller its not about if the Flares work in DCS and how they work (we all know about that stupid "random" game). Please take your time and read carefully what I have written above. Look at the weights.. now the Honet is using M206 like flares - lighter and lower aproximated lower efficiency than what it should have in DCS

Edited April 7 by GumidekCZ