Jump to content

Network HUD/HMCS Symbol lag Issue


darkman222

Recommended Posts

This is my last attempt posting about ACM modes lock behavior, because I still have collected those track files and I still believe that this unreliable behavior cant be correct to this amount in the real F16. If it is correct, then my question is, why dont the other aircraft show this behavior (Plausibility question) in that pronounced manner, which gives a big disadvantage only to the F16 right now.

Especially because you need to rely on pulling the bandit in the HUD, while locking him before, and get a guns solution running on him. That also takes a while to calculate compared to other jets, which in combination, again gives the F16 a disadvantage that I still cant believe is so severe in the real jet. Also because the F16 is designed to use that technique in guns dogfighting.

But at the moment youre too often just chasing the bandit to get a lock instead of a guns kill. This is really frustrating because in the first 2 video clips you see the bandit was not moving much in relation to where my jet was pointing. But instead of locking the bandit the radar chooses to lock the air and drop the lock and wont give a guns solution.

In the following 3 video clips you see at least the pattern, when the lock is lagging seems to be the same, that the closer the bandit gets to the HUD the chances of a lock is getting better. But the time for the FCR to calculate a guns solution is too little.

But I still want to point out in the first 2 video clips, that I cant believe a modern F16 radar would have issues locking that target almost stationary in front of the F16.

Trackfiles as ZIP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3aplmwjhlavn2ex/F16_ACM_Lock.zip?dl=0

 


Edited by darkman222
  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Crptalk said:

Can we stop bring HMCS alignment up in these threads. It's clearly not it... Half of OP's tracks weren't even using HMD cueing.

I will not stop asking for clarity. HMCS alignment is directly relevant to understanding the video images -- what part of the offset is radar lag vs misalignment.

"Subsonic is below Mach 1, supersonic is up to Mach 5. Above Mach 5 is hypersonic. And reentry from space, well, that's like Mach a lot."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Machalot said:

I will not stop asking for clarity. HMCS alignment is directly relevant to understanding the video images -- what part of the offset is radar lag vs misalignment.

Those tests are air starts or at least hot starts, which doesn't require JHMCS alignment. I mean just by using common sense why would darkman do these tests with cold starts? That would waste a lot of time and make the track file unnecessarily long.

I play on the dogfight sever everyday and this happens to me everyday. It's not due to JHMCS aligntment. Period. This issue has been around even before JHMCS aligntment was introduced to F-16... 

4 hours ago, darkman222 said:

This is my last attempt posting about ACM modes lock behavior, because I still have collected those track files and I still believe that this unreliable behavior cant be correct to this amount in the real F16. If it is correct, then my question is, why dont the other aircraft show this behavior (Plausibility question) in that pronounced manner, which gives a big disadvantage only to the F16 right now.

Especially because you need to rely on pulling the bandit in the HUD, while locking him before, and get a guns solution running on him. That also takes a while to calculate compared to other jets, which in combination, again gives the F16 a disadvantage that I still cant believe is so severe in the real jet. Also because the F16 is designed to use that technique in guns dogfighting.

But at the moment youre too often just chasing the bandit to get a lock instead of a guns kill. This is really frustrating because in the first 2 video clips you see the bandit was not moving much in relation to where my jet was pointing. But instead of locking the bandit the radar chooses to lock the air and drop the lock and wont give a guns solution.

In the following 3 video clips you see at least the pattern, when the lock is lagging seems to be the same, that the closer the bandit gets to the HUD the chances of a lock is getting better. But the time for the FCR to calculate a guns solution is too little.

But I still want to point out in the first 2 video clips, that I cant believe a modern F16 radar would have issues locking that target almost stationary in front of the F16.

Trackfiles as ZIP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3aplmwjhlavn2ex/F16_ACM_Lock.zip?dl=0

 

 

Thank you for posting this again darkman. I hope ED can finally take a serious look into this issue and fix it. 


Edited by SCPanda
  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Those tests are air starts or at least hot starts, which doesn't require JHMCS alignment. I mean just by using common sense why would darkman do these tests with cold starts?

Ok great, thanks for clarifying. I have no idea why someone might try this with cold starts, but if you frequent these forums you'll find users all over the place who don't know the finer details of how to operate the jet (Mav BSGT, NORM align, HMCS align, lasing, etc.).  I'm glad in this case it is a well-isolated bug of the radar. 

  • Like 4

"Subsonic is below Mach 1, supersonic is up to Mach 5. Above Mach 5 is hypersonic. And reentry from space, well, that's like Mach a lot."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JHCMS should be aligned as long as I dont miss anything that needs to be done when spawning  mid air. This is not about how to align the JHMCS. That jet is hot, spawning mid air and should operate as expected. And really nobody needs a tutorial how to switch on ACM boresight mode point the cross on another jet in front.

I am not using mods.

I would love to reproduce it in SP but this involves a lot of setup in the mission editor, which I clearly dont have the time and competence for. This is why I posted the videos together with the tracks, that you can see the pattern how it happens and when. Understand that if I just posted one event when it happened it would have been flagged as "correct as is" quickly. Nobody would doubt the radar is not fail safe. But under real circumstances (MP gaming) it fails too often (compared to other jets). Thats the point here.

If you are like me or @SCPandadoing a lot of dogfights, you can run into that situation the first dogfight in the first minute, but you sure will run into it the following next 10 minutes (see the time stamp in the video)

I can spend 3 hours or more now to try to reproduce it in a set up SP mission and fail, or I can just join the server and have that issue almost instantly. I dont play SP btw. But I remember there was another user who had it happen in SP too. But maybe its a MP only thing. I dont know, its a valid question. Maybe MP is throwing something off.

So ACM modes might be working well in a clinical text book situation (AI bandit flying in front) or even if you want to reproduce it when an aircraft is crossing the nose, it might work in a set up mission and situation with an AI aircraft flying perfectly.

But where it simply does not work is where it should. In a MP dogfight with aircraft just not flying testing parameters which other DCS aircraft manage to lock but not the F16.

 


Edited by darkman222
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Wags changed the title to Network HUD/HMCS Symbol Alignment Issue
  • ED Team

We have tried to reproduce but we are not seeing the issue, this is not just me testing others have tried also in public and our dev version. What we need more than anything is a short as possible track replay example that clearly shows it. I will also ask our closed testers to try and reproduce also in MP or SP.

Thanks

  • Thanks 1

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay. Thanks. Good that its not flagged as "correct as is" again. It might be a MP issue, or it just might be on some servers or just for some people. But as long ED realizes that this actually is an issue (happening for what reason ever) its a good step forward for people frequently encountering it.

If I run into a good example, on a MP session I'll post it.

Thanks @BIGNEWY


Edited by darkman222
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
8 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Okay. Thanks. Good that its not flagged as "correct as is" again. It might be a MP issue, or it just might be on some servers or just for some people. But as long ED realizes that this actually is an issue (happening for what reason ever) its a good step forward for people frequently encountering it.

If I run into a good example, on a MP session I'll post it.

Thanks @BIGNEWY

 

It is more likely to be marked can not reproduce if we can not reproduce, what we know so far this is not a radar issue, it is more likely network related HMCS Alignment issue. 
The tracks supplied don't reproduce it for us which is why we are asking for more tracks and including more people in the tests. 

thanks

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This happened to me many times but as I only do MP I don't know if it's SP related, I will try to do reproduce that but it happens at random with no way to know how to reproduce at will. 

                                                  Looking For A Real Dynamic Campaign?

                                       Come And Check Out XSAF!

           MAKE SURE TO READ THE RULES AND PERSONALY I RECOMMEND CHECKING OUT SOME VIDS ON YOUTUBE.

                                                                Growling Sidewinder's video               Natty Ice's video                              

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ACM Bug-2.trkACM Bug-1.trk

So I had reproduce this in some way, there are part with ground clutter and parts without ground clutter, I wasn't successful with reproducing exactly like in the video but I've experienced that before in MP dogfight servers where the HMCS is already aligned like in those tracks. 

 

 

  • Like 1

                                                  Looking For A Real Dynamic Campaign?

                                       Come And Check Out XSAF!

           MAKE SURE TO READ THE RULES AND PERSONALY I RECOMMEND CHECKING OUT SOME VIDS ON YOUTUBE.

                                                                Growling Sidewinder's video               Natty Ice's video                              

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not very helpful. You play a lot MP and SP like all of us, okay . But do you play a lot of close air combat dogfighting or long range BVR? Chances you run into it in BVR (more than 12 nm) is very low, and to run into in close air combat ( less than 2 nm) is very high. Can you jump in on, for example, the "DCS dogfighters" server, go to guns only area for 30 minutes and NEVER run into that radar locking issue?!

The idea that this is a network related issue might explain a lot of the nature of the issue. Thats why Wags renamed this thread accordingly I guess.

I suspect the issue to happen as follows: There is a lag in transmitting the position of the bandit aircrafts position to the client F16 radar (= my PC). In BVR in a distance of 12 or more nm distance the radar of my client F16 has the chance to compensate for the wrong transmitted position because the offset in time does not reflect a big change in angle off of the bandit to my client F16s nose. Maybe 1 - 2 degrees. So that is what I happen to see sometimes that the target designatior box makes quick correctional jumps. From behind the aircraft that I am about to lock, forward to its actual position. When it fails, it always tries to lock on a position the aircraft was in the past first, which is behind, then corrects jumping forward.

If the lag happens in close air combat and the client F16 radar wants to compensate for it, the angle off the nose the bandit aircraft has travelled in the mean time is maybe 5 or even 15 degrees. So the compensation algorithm just does not not find the aircraft it should lock on. So the relation seems to be: The closer the bandit I want to lock on is, the highter the amount of distance he travels angle wise in front of my aircraft in a shorter amount of time. So the higher the probability that my client F16 radar just does not find the bandit I want it to lock any more, because the information it has of it is later in the past and the real position too much off, that it cant compensate for.

Dos this make sense @BIGNEWY?
I dont want to bring up old stuff, especially because this is from Aug. 2021. But as the issue persists, this was a video where I pointed out the target designator box correctional jumps I encountered. Maybe it is obsolete, please ignore it then.

 


Edited by darkman222
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are 3 trackfiles of the network radar lag / misalignment bug. The target designator box lagging behind the bandit and dropping lock. Tracks are from the latest DCS Version DCS 2.7.10.19473 Open Beta - 07.02.2022 - no mods (except tacview) installed.

Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xewovmzsbv8zopv/20220301_radar_lag.zip?dl=0

 

radar_lag_01.trk - happens already in less then 2 minutes since joining the server. I have never encountered this issue that early.

radar_lag_02.trk - although at longer range, but interesting how the target designator box keeps jumping and trying to stay on a already correctly locked target. ( 12 mins in track file) - you need to have labels enabled and use high quality settings in the video to see the bandit

radar_lag_03.trk - just another ACM lock failed due to the issue. ( 12 mins in track file)

 

For easier reference, see this video too:

 

Sorry for double posting on this issue @BIGNEWYBut I really wanted to make sure you are not missing this. Because it takes a lot of time and nerves to collect those track files. And I think I cant do any better than this.

Please note "radar_lag_01.trk" shows the issue after 1:50 min in the track file. It wont get any better than this.

Final thoughts: It seems to happen less on the  "justdogfight_caucasus_v2.7c" server which is located in greece, compared to the "mobettameta's dogfight arena v1.33" server which is located in the US. I am located in Germany. Maybe that latency comes into play here too.

Thanks again for looking into this issue.

 


Edited by darkman222
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

I wont miss it, as soon as I have time I will take a look. 

thank you

  • Thanks 2

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

I will ask the team to take a look, I do not think this is radar related, I suspect network lag.

thanks

  • Like 1

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw this in single player mode, which is mostly what I've playing as of late.  I will replay the MIZ where it showed and report back. 

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
=============================
Intel Core i7 5930K 3.5GHz, 32Gb RAM// Radeon RX Vega // SSD only // Saitek X65F Throttle / TM Warthog FCS / Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals / Physical Cockpit // TrackIR or VR (HP R-G2)// Win10Pro 64bit //

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...