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How to use Chaff and flare


travelaround

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There is little information to tell us how to use Chaff and flare correctly. So what do you think is the correct use of the program?

My opinion:

1. Chaff is basically ineffective for R-77 and aim-120. It is basically useless whether it is a continuous single launch or a lot of one-time launch.

2. Flare is useful for delivering multiple shots at once. When the missile is far away, if a large number of flares and targets appear in the small field of view of the missile at the same time, the missile will probably be attracted by flare. When the missile finds an error, the target often flies out of view. General missiles have a maximum off-axis tracking angle of more than 90 degrees, but only have a field of view of about 3 degrees.

My native language is not English. This is the content translated by the translator. It may lack enough politeness, may unintentionally offend others, and may not be able to express my accurate meaning.

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Unless I’ve misunderstood your post, Flares are to counter IR guided missiles (eg Sidewinder) and Chaff counters radar guided missiles (eg Aim 120). 

A flare will have no effect on a radar guided missile and chaff will have no effect on a IR guided missiles (at least as far as I know.)

You can set the amount of chaff or flares that get released with each button press, the more released the better the chances of defeating the missile but the sooner you run out of counter measures.

Also you need to execute evasive manoeuvres as well, just dumping the counter measures probably won’t be enough on there own.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood your post and am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs. 🙂

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First you have to understand how active radar missiles work, just watch a few videos and you'll understand. As far as I know, the working principle of radar in DCS is all tied to Doppler. When you are facing the missile sideways (flank), releasing the chaff will have a chance to divert the missile, because at this time it is difficult for the radar to distinguish which is the target between you and the chaff, and when you at the position of hot/cold , it is difficult for the chaff to deceive the missile.

And avoiding active radar missiles relies more on correct and appropriate maneuvers to consume the remaining energy of the missile, and chaff is just one of the means.

For IR guided missiles, you need to turn off the afterburner and throw a few more flares to throw them off. The trick is figuring out how to spot this non-warning missile, so actively throwing a couple of flares might help you survive when you're at a distance where you might be hit by an IR guided missile. 

Some aircraft that need to perform CAS missions may have a missile approach warning system, such as the A10, which is very useful. But our F18 doesn't have this system.

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59分钟前,FrostLaufeyson说:

首先你要了解主动雷达导弹的工作原理,看几个视频你就明白了。据我所知,DCS中雷达的工作原理都与多普勒有关。当你侧身(侧翼)面对导弹时,释放箔条将有机会使导弹转向,因为此时雷达很难区分你和箔条之间的目标是什么,而当你在热/冷位置,箔条很难欺骗导弹。

This is only a theoretical statement, in fact the perfect 3/9line and the rapid reduction to the ground is still completely useless for the R77 and AIM120. I've tested it many times, and in the missile field of view, 3/9line and with the ground in the background, the chaff is completely useless. Of course, the drop altitude and steering alone are enough to de-energize the missile many times, but this has nothing to do with chaff.
I can't find any effective way to use chaff and how to set the delivery program correctly, such as quantity, interval, etc.

58分钟前,FrostLaufeyson说:

对于红外制导导弹,您需要关闭加力燃烧室并再投掷一些照明弹以将它们扔掉。诀窍是弄清楚如何发现这种非预警导弹,因此当您处于可能被红外制导导弹击中的距离时,积极投掷几枚照明弹可能会帮助您生存。 

Continuously firing a small amount of flares is completely useless. It is only useful to fire a large number of flares as a group, which requires maintaining visual sight of the enemy aircraft and firing a large number of flares immediately when the smoke trail of the missile is found. 2 Groups of 10 rounds are enough, and remember to turn off the afterburner.

My native language is not English. This is the content translated by the translator. It may lack enough politeness, may unintentionally offend others, and may not be able to express my accurate meaning.

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As far, as I know you are overthinking the problem. Again, AFAIK, in DCS chaffs/flares works simple as coin toss - with each dispense code decides if it worked or not. And probably each missile type has some kind of factor how probable is countermessures to work. So in DCS programs doesn't really matter, pure amount of chaffs/flares droped rise your chance to win. 
And probably modern missiles like AIM-120C and SD-10 have very low probability of countermessures to work.

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4分钟前,Foka说:

在 DCS 计划中并不重要,仅掉落的箔条/耀斑数量会增加您获胜的机会。 

According to my tests, Chaff is indeed like this, whether it is a continuous small amount of fire or a large amount of fire in a short period of time, it is useless for AIM-120B/C, R-77, SD-10. But flare is not. Only by firing 4 or more flares in a very short period of time can a flare larger than the aircraft signal appear in the small field of view of the missile at a certain moment. Only in this way is it useful. There's no use in sustaining a small amount of firing.

My native language is not English. This is the content translated by the translator. It may lack enough politeness, may unintentionally offend others, and may not be able to express my accurate meaning.

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27分钟前,travelaround说:

This is only a theoretical statement, in fact the perfect 3/9line and the rapid reduction to the ground is still completely useless for the R77 and AIM120. I've tested it many times, and in the missile field of view, 3/9line and with the ground in the background, the chaff is completely useless. Of course, the drop altitude and steering alone are enough to de-energize the missile many times, but this has nothing to do with chaff.
I can't find any effective way to use chaff and how to set the delivery program correctly, such as quantity, interval, etc.

Continuously firing a small amount of flares is completely useless. It is only useful to fire a large number of flares as a group, which requires maintaining visual sight of the enemy aircraft and firing a large number of flares immediately when the smoke trail of the missile is found. 2 Groups of 10 rounds are enough, and remember to turn off the afterburner.

At first I thought chaff didn't work at all, however I've seen missiles attracted to chaff in Tacview more than once (but it's been a while, I can't remember what type of missile was drawn away by chaff) .
Having said that, I still don't really believe in chaff.

As Foka said, missiles like AIM-120 and SD-10 are hard to be attracted by chaff, we should be more worried about IR missiles. Usually when I see the trajectory cloud of an IR missile, I manually and quickly throw the flares one by one, until the trail catches up behind my tail. Moreover, the effect of flares is particularly obvious when you attack the helicopter, and the missile is easily attracted by the flares of the helicopter.

So, it's better to bring 120 rounds of flares.

 

Edit:

I haven't tested DCS chaff and flare too much, so I need some videos explaining DCS mechanics to understand as well


Edited by FrostLaufeyson
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7分钟前,FrostLaufeyson说:

So, it's better to bring 120 rounds of flares.

Yes, yes, I also think the best combination of Chaff and flare is: 0 Chaff and max flare. Glad you share the same opinion as me.
For radar-guided missiles, forget about Chaff completely and use other means of draining missile energy, ground obstacles, and more.

My native language is not English. This is the content translated by the translator. It may lack enough politeness, may unintentionally offend others, and may not be able to express my accurate meaning.

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33分钟前,travelaround说:

Yes, yes, I also think the best combination of Chaff and flare is: 0 Chaff and max flare. Glad you share the same opinion as me.
For radar-guided missiles, forget about Chaff completely and use other means of draining missile energy, ground obstacles, and more.

Chaff is now more of a psychological comfort

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Chaff in DCS works  like radar flares. Depending on the aspect, every piece of countermeasure is essentially a dice with a chance of success that's decided by the missile's ECCM value. The more chaff you put out and the closer you are to a proper notch, the more chances you have. If you're only going up against targets with radar guided missiles, putting out chaff as you're defending is only going to increase your chances of survival.

 

Flares have some level of preflare modifier, the engine thrust value (AB, mil, idle) and each piece of flare also has a dice roll. Programs are essentially pointless, the more you put out, the more chances you'll have to roll high enough. Roll for deception!

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2022/2/24 AM1点00分,WobblyFlops说:

Programs are essentially pointless, the more you put out, the more chances you'll have to roll high enough. 

No, only the decoy in the missile's field of view is effective. For infrared guided missiles, the field of view is very small. We need to consider how to make enough flares appear in the field of view.

My native language is not English. This is the content translated by the translator. It may lack enough politeness, may unintentionally offend others, and may not be able to express my accurate meaning.

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