cannot reproduce Proximity fuze

[Northstar98]

17 minutes ago, Hobel said:

So if it works quite well on a few rockets, we ignore it on those where it doesn't work at all?

Is the video I added a lie? especially in air combat between aircraft PF is very important.

I've just posted a track above showing the AIM-120 proximity fusing.

Every surface to air or air-to air missile that should have a proximity fuse, does in DCS.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Northstar98

[Hobel]

I did some more tests and yes DCS has "Proximity Fuze".

with a very big BUT.

The shot you showed is exactly the problem I'm talking about the Aim120 exploded if at all a few meters(4-6m?) from the aircraft.
And that in a clean environment.

An AIM-9A/B with 4.5kg of explosive has a kill radius of about 9 meters.

what do you think an Aim120 with ~20kg of Warhead will do? or other rockets with even more.

Many missiles have no or very bad proximity fuze as you can see even from your track. and in my track you can see clearly what happens when the missile is one  more meter away, it just flies by and that is not right.

track uploaded for view
https://streamable.com/c3uy8b

This  has almost nothing to do with Proximity Fuze anymore.

Edit: note that the frontal proxi may differ from the side


Source to my claim with the Aim9:


http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Special/CLK_10.htm

AIM-9B, E and RB-24 : : http://alternatewars.com/SAC/AIM-9B_Sidewinder_1A_SMC_-_January_1972.pdf

AIM-9D:  https://archive.org/details/OP23092ndSidewinderGuidedMissleMark2/page/n3/mode/2up

More
https://books.google.de/books?id=7k8x53W3kawC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=DSU-15/B+AOTD&source=bl&ots=osV8Hmm0Pu&sig=ACfU3U2X_UkNgFyVVRXi9nWUWpNHWzjQSQ&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn19-__NTmAhUBQUEAHa64D7kQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=DSU-15%2FB AOTD&f=false

Edited May 31, 2022 by Hobel

[Hobel]

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Hobel

[Hobel]

 

DCS F16 no Proxy Aim120C.trk

[NineLine]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:45 PM, Hobel said:

 

DCS F16 no Proxy Aim120C.trk 186 kB · 0 downloads

I played this track on our internal version and this was the result. 

[Hobel]

 And what do they say about my recordings - you see what happens?

It would be nice to know what the team has to say about this, the topic has been discussed for a long time and is a big problem, especially in PvP, people roll and dodge the missiles, that can't be the goal

 

and thanks for looking :) 

 

here is another

 

 

DCS F16 no Proxy Aim120C.trk

Otherwise try to fly this after

Use in MP:

Spoiler

they can see the rocket fly past the cockpit, as in the SP test, and that just doesn't make sense

https://streamable.com/xneezn

 

 

 

 

fuze Front and rear:

Here it should be said that it may of course be that when the missile detects that it is right on target, the fuze then fires much later,
because the field of view of the proximity fuze is more to the sides.

How that is exactly with the 120C, I don't know. and whether DCS makes any difference at all

 

I think it should be similar to the explanation of Aim9:

Spoiler

 

 

Aim120 vs KA50:

Front and side fuze

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Hobel

[NineLine]

15 hours ago, Hobel said:

And what do they say about my recordings - you see what happens?

I only show them tracks that show a problem, so far no issue, at least internally. I will check your new track. 

Work is always on going, so its possible something has changed between our dev builds and public releases. 

 

15 hours ago, Hobel said:

here is another

 

 

DCS F16 no Proxy Aim120C.trk 186 kB · 2 downloads

That seems like the same track. 

[Hobel]

oh wow sorry

thank you for your patience here 2 more

If they don't work either the internal version is different and we have to wait for an update or the trackfile can't reflect that correctly.

 

pic test 2

 

badProxytest2.trk badProxytest1.trk

Edited June 1, 2022 by Hobel

[Hobel]

  

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Northstar98:

All of them are set to 7 m.

Best place to look is here for new API missiles (like the AIM-120C-5) and here for old API missiles (like the AIM-9s. FYI the AIM-9M is found under AIM_9.lua). Chances are if you can't find what you're after in one of them, it's probably in the other. Also note that some missiles are present in both.

For the old system, the variable you're looking for is 'KillDistance = x' typically found on line 17. New API missiles have it defined in a way that's a bit more obvious:

proximity_fuze = {
			arm_delay = 1.6,
			radius = 7
		},

From the AIM_120C.lua

 

From this post showing the exact proxy fuse spacing of missiles in DCS World, we can already tell that the spacing for the Aim9- is definitively wrong

DCS  : 7m

RL     : 9m

I have given several sources for this above

Are the documents valid for them?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Hobel

[NineLine]

8 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Are the documents valid for them?

I will ask Chizh if its good enough for change.

[MYSE1234]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:51 PM, NineLine said:

I will ask Chizh if its good enough for change.

The SWAF manual for AJ37 also lists it as around 9m for the RB24 (AIM-9B)

(The image was removed but it's on page 76.)

Edited June 11, 2022 by MYSE1234

[NineLine]

Just now, MYSE1234 said:

The SWAF manual for AJ37 also lists it as around 9m

 

I removed your image, I dont see a link showing it meets our requirements for not being a 1.16 violation, if its a pre-1980 document or can be shared with no issue, please provide a link to where the document can be found, and you can put the image back. Read Rule 1.16 if you are not aware, thanks. 

[MYSE1234]

8 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I removed your image, I dont see a link showing it meets our requirements for not being a 1.16 violation, if its a pre-1980 document or can be shared with no issue, please provide a link to where the document can be found, and you can put the image back. Read Rule 1.16 if you are not aware, thanks. 

The full manual has been declassified, if you look at the top of each page you'll see the text "HEMLIG" crossed out together with the date it was declassified.
It's also from 1975, so well before 1980.

Edited June 1, 2022 by MYSE1234

[nighthawk2174]

2 minutes ago, MYSE1234 said:

The full manual has been declassified, if you look at the top of each page you'll see the text "HEMLIG" crossed out together with the date it was declassified.

Ohh never seen that manual before thanks for a link!  Has there been any changes in regards to the proxy fuzes may be worth asking about.  To see if it’s build or track related.

[NineLine]

7 minutes ago, MYSE1234 said:

The full manual has been declassified, if you look at the top of each page you'll see the text "HEMLIG" crossed out together with the date it was declassified.
It's also from 1975, so well before 1980.

 

Thanks you only need to post the link to a legal download showing this then you can share to your hearts content

[MYSE1234]

1 minute ago, NineLine said:

Thanks you only need to post the link to a legal download showing this then you can share to your heart's content

lol, you don't keep track of the forum very well then if this one image is being nuked. 
But yeah, I do not have an official download or whatever for it, but some other manuals has been through the news a few years ago (as I'm sure you are aware) due to a very small portion of another manual for a Viggen being declassified accidentally. No comment about the manuals themselves other than that very specific part of one of them.

[NineLine]

12 hours ago, Hobel said:

oh wow sorry

thank you for your patience here 2 more

If they don't work either the internal version is different and we have to wait for an update or the trackfile can't reflect that correctly.

 

pic test 2

 

badProxytest2.trk 132.88 kB · 1 download badProxytest1.trk 91.25 kB · 1 download

 

Ok, I tested with the latest RC version (Release Candidate). Track one, the missile misses, but I tried to measure the best I could, and if the fuses is set to 7 m it still wouldn't have gone off, I am not sure it would have at 9 m.

The second track the missile and aircraft blew up.

35 minutes ago, MYSE1234 said:

lol, you don't keep track of the forum very well then if this one image is being nuked. 
But yeah, I do not have an official download or whatever for it, but some other manuals has been through the news a few years ago (as I'm sure you are aware) due to a very small portion of another manual for a Viggen being declassified accidentally. No comment about the manuals themselves other than that very specific part of one of them.

We do our very best to keep track, but a lot of posts are made, and its mostly me and BN patrolling. 

[Hobel]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

Ok, I tested with the latest RC version (Release Candidate). Track one, the missile misses, but I tried to measure the best I could, and if the fuses is set to 7 m it still wouldn't have gone off, I am not sure it would have at 9 m.

thanks for taking a look.

The tracks were made before I knew that the PF of the Aim120 and others in DCS was really set to 7m.

whether it would have gone up at 9 meters one could only speculate here i measured 8.5m but whether i was accurate enough is of course questionable.

2 meters would be but in any case already an improvement because in 2 track I come easily under 9 meters with such a stupid maneuver

 

Aim9x :  Fuze 7m in DCS

remember the Aim9x is 2.87m long:
 

Spoiler

I will create a new track

 

MYSE1234 and I have only presented evidence for the Aim9 = 9m

If this is accepted for the Aim9 I hope it will also happen for the 120 and it will get a bit more than 9 meters.

A modern system with more explosives and smarter warhead and igniter  solution should already have a little more PF range, the same goes for other missiles.

With the Aim9, the limiting factor is apparently also the igniter rather than the explosives.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by Hobel

[okopanja]

Related to this problem, there is a following explanation:

We see this same problem also with other missiles e.g. R-27ER:

The tacview is from server side, (this event is like 10-20 minutes into the trk filw. Likely it would be probably to large to upload, but I will check if I can upload it to network share).

I kindly ask for this issue to be fixed for all missiles and not just those that got reported here.

If this is not possible, then all fixes should be delayed in order not to place others at unfair disadvantage.

[Hobel]

here 2 files the Aim9x flies by under the 7 meters

 

27ER I will leave them uncommented since this was my first attempt with her :

R27ER.trk Aim9x.trk

[okopanja]

On my side, I fired in following in following sequence:

1. R-77 (this made him try to notch and run away)
2. R-27ER (I was hoping to get him killed with this one)
3. R-27ET fired a bit later just in case

It turned out that following occurred.

Server:

1. R-77 ran out off steam (typically I used them for saturation on RWR and to keep my other missiles a "lesser" concern
2. R-27ER, missed, by 4 meters cockpit, and ran into ground
3. R-27ET, killed the bandit

On my side:

1. R-77 ran out of steam
2. R-27ET, killed the bandit (actually it hit him way before ER, it was much faster in this universe)
3. R-27ER, hit left overs

Now, since I replayed without any acceleration I got this way 2 tacviews: one from server and one from my own side.

I took a look at what was going on with the missiles: first ET on both sides and then ER on both sides.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by okopanja
Could not properly annotate pictures...

[NineLine]

18 hours ago, Hobel said:

here 2 files the Aim9x flies by under the 7 meters

 

27ER I will leave them uncommented since this was my first attempt with her :

R27ER.trk 152.05 kB · 0 downloads Aim9x.trk 116.96 kB · 0 downloads

Both tested in the Release Candidate Build, both ended in kills. The AIM-9X one was actually very cool, it was all about the proximity fuse on that shot.

[Knock-Knock]

@NineLine At what frequency are the proximity fuzes actually checking in code. 60, 200, 1000 hz?

[Hobel]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

Both tested in the Release Candidate Build, both ended in kills. The AIM-9X one was actually very cool, it was all about the proximity fuse on that shot.

 

could you make a short video from different angles?

Because the tracks then do not seem to indicate the same for everyone, with me or friends whom I have sent it Explodes the Aim9x namely not. (all have not replied yet)

It's the same as the AGM88 Harm vs Rolland story, they had to re-enact it several times to see our result because the track showed something different for you

and I think we agree that you can see in the video of me that the Aim9x is under 7 meters?

 

 

@Knock_Knock

What exactly do you mean by that?
Is this what you are looking for?

These are the values for the aim120

I think the arm delay should not differ between the other rockets

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Hobel

[Knock-Knock]

21 hours ago, Hobel said:

@Knock_Knock

What exactly do you mean by that?
Is this what you are looking for?

These are the values for the aim120

I think the arm delay should not differ between the other rockets

 

No, Im asking how often the code runs the check if something is inside the missiles proximity fuze radius. If the missile for exampe is traveling 3600 km/h, thats 1000 meters per second, so if the check runs at 100hz, that means the missile will have traveled 10 meters per check and can easily have passed the target, especially at the exremities of the proximity fuze radius / sphere. At 1000 hz its 1 meter, but still a good chance it will the target at the extremity of the radius/sphere.