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Proximity fuze


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Ah okay yes is a good point and I tested it right away.


I have 2 F16 with the highest possible speed towards each other can fly
So that the approach speed is as high as possible.

and once as slow as possible.

wase.JPG

Shouldn't there be a difference here?

I could not see one

 

tests with the Aim9x in this scenario it also always exploded at ~7m

 

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This used to be an issue with the R-33 before they changed the kinematics and the old AIM-54 before heatblur implemented the F-14 and reworked it. A mach 4 missile would more than half the time just blip through its target based on the frame rate and not fuse when it passed you.

Highly unlikely the game can check for collisions any faster than the frame rate but I'd be happy to hear otherwise. Even at 120 FPS that's not going to be a great frame rate for very high speed interactions. The Prox fuse ideally should be based on current and last frame positions plus the line travelled between, and if the aircraft line crossed that line within fuzing distance.

Thats my assumption on how you would solve that issue, but I have no idea if ED has implemented something like that or has their own solution.

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More than once I had situations where I could watch in tacview my ET going through the target, and target disintegrating on its own 1-2 seconds later.

I assume that ED does some sort of extrapolation of trajectories of objects, which are reconciled and send back to the clients. Combined with different ping times, this results in the different realities. I was really surprised at how much the AoA, speed and flight times differed for the same missiles I fired.

No reliable position information means fuses can not be reliable to start with.

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The missile flying through the target and then things blowing up later is usually a sign of desync/lag on a multiplayer server not normally a prox fuse issue. That is not necessarily related, but due to the way positions of objects are extrapolated the solutions may be similar.

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14 minutes ago, KlarSnow said:

The missile flying through the target and then things blowing up later is usually a sign of desync/lag on a multiplayer server not normally a prox fuse issue. That is not necessarily related, but due to the way positions of objects are extrapolated the solutions may be similar.

See graph I posted. Desync means fuses can not work at all properly. Desync occurs way more in DCS than you can imagine.

I generated graphs from server and mine tacview, by selecting Speed and AoA (shows really greate what the missile is doing).

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I think everyone in here is aware of how bad desync can get thanks. The two issues can definitely compound each other but as always shooters version of the event is all that matters for actually triggering the fuze, This passing through due to high speeds and closure rates vs the frame rate of the game can happen regardless of desync (happens in single player).

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14 minutes ago, KlarSnow said:

I think everyone in here is aware of how bad desync can get thanks. The two issues can definitely compound each other but as always shooters version of the event is all that matters for actually triggering the fuze, This passing through due to high speeds and closure rates vs the frame rate of the game can happen regardless of desync (happens in single player).

One of the problems in DCS is generally that all game mechanics happen on a single thread. In this respect the fast moving objects are particularly sensitive to the "internal" scheduling clock of the game. Hence you may get undesired effect, especially if the machine is much lower end than what the developers are using.

I can totally understand why they stayed with single thread implementation:

- simple to understand and debug code

- no race conditions (at least in SP)

- lua does not support multi-threaded

Drawbacks of single thread design:

- CPU performance bottleneck on client side

- CPU performance bottleneck on server side (I am not 100% sure, but I believe the latency on server is also causing the FPS to drop on client side as well)

Large majority of this game is implemented in lua. Lua is not really designed with multi-threaded/multi-core operation in mind. While this language gained popularity, its developer base is rather small, which has negative impact on further development.

Provided that ED can make lua multi-thread capable, they could divide the processing load based on:

- locality (you divide the map into either dynamic or static sections, and let each thread handle its own section)

- unit type (e.g. ground vs air, typically ground units do not require so rapid updates as fast paced)

- user/AI processing

- some other way

One other approach is to keep lua as in single-threaded, but execute multiple instances of interpreter to handle different tasks (problem of shared memory accesses).

Also different approaches can be made into having: longed lived threads vs short term threads(while these would mean more overhead, they would also allow you to balance the usage of cores better).

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You can have all the best fuses in the world, You can adjust them all you want. Ive seen missiles go through cockpits and not even explode. Your beating a dead horse, To many network factors are involved, Shooter, Server & Client keep testing tho 👍  


Edited by Coxy_99
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17 hours ago, Hobel said:

Straight approach to the target, proximity fuze ignites at this distance:

Front and rear

2.JPG

Unbenannt.JPG

 

Aim9x Maneuvers or pulls G and Explode from this distance:

3.JPG

Another flight

4.JPG

Why is there a difference between straight and maneuvering?

Which doesn't really make a lot of sense as the proximity fuse is laser based, with the apertures on the sides of the missile

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb Northstar98:

Which doesn't really make a lot of sense as the proximity fuse is laser based, with the apertures on the sides of the missile

yes that's right.

only so it is also easier to test and so it currently works in DCS 🤷‍♂️


Edited by Hobel
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On 2/2/2020 at 7:30 AM, Shadow KT said:

Fuzes are present in DCS, but it doesn't mean that they are any good or effective and they can't be worked on....

 

Yes, you have the MP desync, but you get the same happening in SP as well.... Desync really isn't that bad....

 

War Thunder has pretty well done fuzes

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253981

 

Yeah KlarSnow said it.... been discussed for a long time and the head fuzing thing as well

 

I've got similar results yesterday in a SP mission, track attached.

The stinger missile got its guidance right, rear aspect, but in the last sec it goes to the moon with no explosion, even almost touching the airframe.

odd_stinger.trk

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Only for the Aim9:

Proximity fuze

DCS : 7m
RL:     9m

 

Nothing has changed:
Shortly before proxy triggering

Maneuver Aim9x (2.8m long)

F16.jpg

Straight:

f16s.png

  The mission right after start Active Pause:

F16vsF16Proxytestkaukaaim9x.miz.miz

 

Am 1.6.2022 um 23:51 schrieb NineLine:

I will ask Chizh if its good enough for change.

Is there any feedback if the documents are sufficient?

Aim9xManeuve86r.trk Aim9xstraightproxy86.trk

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7 hours ago, Hobel said:

Only for the Aim9:

Proximity fuze

DCS : 7m
RL:     9m

 

Nothing has changed:
Shortly before proxy triggering

Maneuver Aim9x (2.8m long)

F16.jpg

Straight:

f16s.png

  The mission right after start Active Pause:

F16vsF16Proxytestkaukaaim9x.miz.miz 297.79 kB · 0 downloads

 

Is there any feedback if the documents are sufficient?

Aim9xManeuve86r.trk 402.21 kB · 0 downloads Aim9xstraightproxy86.trk 117.32 kB · 0 downloads

Yeah some tests of my own indicate that nothing has changed as well.  Thanks for doing the leg work on some tracks.

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  • ED Team

When did we say the distance would change, I only asked if they would look into it, and I don't think anything has been done beyond that.

Are you guys seeing the same failures you were before? I was not able to reproduce what you were seeing.

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27 minutes ago, NineLine said:

When did we say the distance would change, I only asked if they would look into it, and I don't think anything has been done beyond that.

Are you guys seeing the same failures you were before? I was not able to reproduce what you were seeing.

I've not noticed any changes and from the above tracks i'm seeing the 9X pass well within 7m.

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  • ED Team

Unfortunatley, I can not reproduce this too. Guys, did you instal/remove any mods eralier? If yes please try to repare DCS.

If no, I would like to know some additional info:

if you play track several times(say 5) in a row you always get the same result?

if you play track the same 5 times but with DCS restarting after each replay do you see any difference?

 

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On 6/7/2022 at 5:26 PM, Red_Camarada said:

I've got similar results yesterday in a SP mission, track attached.

The stinger missile got its guidance right, rear aspect, but in the last sec it goes to the moon with no explosion, even almost touching the airframe.

odd_stinger.trk 302.33 kB · 2 downloads

We have the FIM-92C Stinger RMP, which AFAIK, doesn't have a proximty fuse IRL. It probably shouldn't be missing like that, but that's a guidance problem.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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Am 9.6.2022 um 06:29 schrieb NineLine:

I don't understand, I see both aircraft destroyed. They seem to detonate as expected. 

Both tracks. 

 

 

Yes, in my case both planes are also destroyed. That is correct

show me what you see when the Aim9x pulls g

I only changed the way of testing.

I have shown 2 examples.

Once the missile flies straight towards the target and explodes in sufficient distance.


Test 2 and that's what this is about, the missile pulls g or maneuvers this time but it has to get much closer. under 7meter

 

Why is there a difference between straight and maneuvering?

 

 

 

what to see and what they can also test very easily.
When does the rocket explode when pulling G
and when on a direct approach

Edit:

And from the examples shown it should be clear why some rockets can pass under 7m

No mods

 

 

 

Am 9.6.2022 um 08:29 schrieb Маэстро:

if you play track several times(say 5) in a row you always get the same result?

if you play track the same 5 times but with DCS restarting after each replay do you see any difference?

 From time to time the track is incorrect yes

That's why I tried to adjust the tests.

something like this happens very often in a row

 


Edited by Hobel
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Am 1.6.2022 um 23:51 schrieb NineLine:

I will ask Chizh if its good enough for change.

Is there any new news on this? 🙂

it's just a number that needs to be changed in Lua, same for the Aim120


Edited by Hobel
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