problematic 4 way hats on the CM3 throttle

[imacken]

Well, 20220208 is on the main software page of Virpils site, but I don’t recommend that till a couple of bugs are fixed. 
despite the title of the thread, 20211201 can be found here https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/5472-vpс-software-setup-20211101-release-candidate/

[dburne]

Not having any real issues so far with latest release version however I probably don't use the software the way some others might. Some of it is just too far over my simple mind lol.

Edited February 26, 2022 by dburne

[speed-of-heat]

57 minutes ago, SkipCarey said:

im having trouble finding that 1201 version of the software.................lots of others including the 208 version

This is not a software issue...

[imacken]

5 minutes ago, dburne said:

Not having any real issues so far with latest release version however I probably don't use the software the way some others might. Some of it is just too far over my simple mind lol.

 

Don, do you use virtual axes at all? I presume you would for the CM3 encoders.

[Meatshield]

3 hours ago, imacken said:

Firstly, Stuart (SOH) is absolutely correct. Never look at VPC Config to see what is happening in Windows. Always use JoyTester.

The images on the right half were the buttons in JoyTester, the left half is VPC Config's raw inputs, and I'm not having any issues with center, so that isn't the issue.

Anyone? Anyone else able to see this behavior on theirs? Do I need to warranty my throttle?

[dburne]

Just now, imacken said:

Don, do you use virtual axes at all? I presume you would for the CM3 encoders.

No I just use the encoders for pretty simple button press things. Like turning pilot body on/off, show/hide stick, fps counter, etc.

[speed-of-heat]

3 minutes ago, Meatshield said:

The images on the right half were the buttons in JoyTester, the left half is VPC Config's raw inputs, and I'm not having any issues with center, so that isn't the issue.

Anyone? Anyone else able to see this behavior on theirs? Do I need to warranty my throttle?

looking at your image in that light, no button will be depressed because you have a 4way switch mapped and no button mapped to the corner position...

in the second state, 

[imacken]

4 minutes ago, dburne said:

No I just use the encoders for pretty simple button press things. Like turning pilot body on/off, show/hide stick, fps counter, etc.

Fair enough, but, personally, I would say that is wasting the use of encoders. Any button can do that. 

[Meatshield]

Just now, speed-of-heat said:

looking at your image in that light, no button will be depressed because you have a 4way switch mapped and no button mapped to the corner position...

That's exactly what I'm saying. I was pressing up, it's set to 4 way, it presses the up button. I move towards the corner and it drops the button, even though you can clearly see physical input 20 is still asserted. In 4 way, there are no corner buttons, the corners should just keep sending the cardinal direction it was sending. If your sending up, you should be able to move to either "up" corner and still send up, it should send up until you release the switch or rotate to be pressing straight right or left, right? People on discord and here have said that they do not have spots in the corner where it sends 0 buttons while pressed in 4 way mode, but no one has provided any screenshot to prove it.

[speed-of-heat]

Just now, Meatshield said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. I was pressing up, it's set to 4 way, it presses the up button. I move towards the corner and it drops the button, even though you can clearly see physical input 20 is still asserted. In 4 way, there are no corner buttons, the corners should just keep sending the cardinal direction it was sending. If your sending up, you should be able to move to either "up" corner and still send up, it should send up until you release the switch or rotate to be pressing straight right or left, right? People on discord and here have said that they do not have spots in the corner where it sends 0 buttons while pressed in 4 way mode, but no one has provided any screenshot to prove it.

You should understand how the software works and address the problem between the keyboard and the chair

[Meatshield]

6 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

Edited 3 hours ago by speed-of-heat
added settings and version

Those settings only show you using 4-way for the 2-way switch on the front of the throttle, the rest of yours are set to 8-way and would trigger multiple buttons in the corner, unlike 4-way, which is what my questions are all about, which should only send 1 at a time.

3 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

You should understand how the software works and address the problem between the keyboard and the chair

Happily, little help?

[speed-of-heat]

yes but you are not in a valid switch position... so no button is pressed, you are in the position (exactly) where you are saying DO NOT MAP A BUTTON ...

the fact that you THINK there should be a button press is the problem

[Meatshield]

7 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

the fact that you THINK there should be a button press is the problem

The fact that I think "pushing on the hat firmly should result in a button press unless you are set to 4 way and manage to exactly hit the corner without activating one of the sides first" is the problem?

If this is intended behavior, it's because they messed up and are letting inputs inhibit each other, like:

U'=U&!(L|R)

R'=R&!(U|D)

When they should be using the outputs to inhibit each other:

U'=U&!(L'|R')

R'=R&!(U'|D')

If this is the issue, I feel like it's where the vast majority of their hat complaints come from. People say they "feel" bad, but I'm guessing the main issue is they "feel" like they don't have great control over which buttons are pressed and using it in 4 way with proper logic would fix that. I'd bet a large amount of money they make that change and make 4-way the default for things other than POV hats like the trim hat on joysticks, it would virtually eliminate hat complaints, and hat complaints are like the only thing I see people bash Virpil for.

The problem is between the keyboard and the chair, but it seems to be between a keyboard and chair at Virpil somewhere.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Meatshield

[speed-of-heat]

Sigh.

[imacken]

I really don’t see what the problem is. If you move the 4 way hat through 360 degrees, it shows U 0 R 0 D 0 L 0 U, which in my eyes that is exactly what I would expect!

[Meatshield]

6 minutes ago, imacken said:

I really don’t see what the problem is. If you move the 4 way hat through 360 degrees, it shows U 0 R 0 D 0 L 0 U, which in my eyes that is exactly what I would expect!

4 way is meaningless, because you may as well have it set to 8 way, if the way you have to use it is to carefully and perfectly only press it exactly U/D/L/R, no?

Like U 0 R 0 D 0 L 0 is still 8 ways, just putting 0's in instead of UR RD DL LU, instead of a 4 way which would just go U R D L

Edited February 26, 2022 by Meatshield

[imacken]

Honestly, out of all the Virpil devices I have owned over quite a long period of time, I have NEVER had an issue finding U/R/D/L with the hat switches. 

[Meatshield]

4 minutes ago, imacken said:

Honestly, out of all the Virpil devices I have owned over quite a long period of time, I have NEVER had an issue finding U/R/D/L with the hat switches. 

The issue isn't finding it, it's holding a hat on the side of the throttle a perfect direction for a number of seconds while making large throttle and/or body movements, as one would do with a 4-way mic switch while in combat. (which is also when you have the least brainpower you're willing to devote to something like that)

[imacken]

Never had an issue with that either. You need to make quite an effort to move to a corner if you are holding a direction. 

[skypickle]

I think I understand what meatshield is saying. The 8 way hat for me does not not give enough tactile feedback. I have to rely entirely on my hand’s proprioception. For example. As I advance the throttle, the geometry of my hand on the throttle changes. So for example, to activate the ‘forward’ direction on the hat, different hand muscles actions need to be activated depending on how far forward the throttle has been advanced. If I forget to remember this, then a forward thumb flick may work properly in the throttle idle position but at full throttle, I get forward and up or sometimes only up. If the cm3 is on a desk, it might be far forward of the shoulder pivot joint and excursions of the throttle result in significant angular rotation of the hand on the grip.

 

a solution for me would be to have a ‘cross’ shaped hat instead to a pyramid. This way the ‘arms’ of the cross would. Inform my finger which way to pus\h. I asked Virpil about this and they said yoyo. They would not provide info on how to change the plastic hat. I don’t have a 3d printer nor the knowledge to print a ‘prosthesis’ - either for my hat or my finger.

[imacken]

The hats are shaped, so it’s easy to orientate the direction regardless of throttle position. But, that’s just my opinion. 

[Meatshield]

Well, if anyone else finds it as insane of a design decision as I do (for background I'm an embedded device/firmware engineer with 12 years of commercial and industrial new product development experience specializing in human-machine interfaces, not saying I'm never wrong, but I pride myself on creating an intuitive and a pleasant user experience), or just wants to see what I'm talking about, I learned some python just now and made a joystick gremlin script to fix the hat dropping buttons in the corners. Feel free to use/modify/ignore: 

https://pastebin.com/F1FiPPsh

To use:

1. install vJoy, install Joystick Gremlin, and download the py script linked above
2. Set the hat to 8W mode in VPC
3. In Joystick Gremlin, add this file on the plugins tab, hit the gear to config, bind the hat to the various inputs, set the outputs to buttons on the virtual stick
4. Click the gamepad looking thing in the toolbar and it turns green
5. Enjoy!
6. You can run as many instances of the plugin as desired (hit plus sign next to plugin to spawn more instances), so you could do all the hats if you wanted. It only has callbacks, so shouldn't hurt performance. Bonus, if you have multiple throttles, or a collective that you swap between, you could map a hat on each to the same virtual buttons so you don't have to change your VA/SRS bindings when switching devices

[imacken]

I know you will disagree, but I feel you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  It seems perfectly logical to me that the hat would drop the button in corners.

What would be the point in the corners activating a button.  If you went straight to the top right, for example, should it register up or right?  Or, if you were moving round, should it go U - U - R or U - R - R?

I think I'll leave this discussion now as I feel it is going nowhere.

 

[SnapRoll]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:55 PM, Meatshield said:

Well, if anyone else finds it as insane of a design decision as I do (for background I'm an embedded device/firmware engineer with 12 years of commercial and industrial new product development experience specializing in human-machine interfaces, not saying I'm never wrong, but I pride myself on creating an intuitive and a pleasant user experience), or just wants to see what I'm talking about, I learned some python just now and made a joystick gremlin script to fix the hat dropping buttons in the corners. Feel free to use/modify/ignore: 

https://pastebin.com/F1FiPPsh

To use:

1. install vJoy, install Joystick Gremlin, and download the py script linked above
2. Set the hat to 8W mode in VPC
3. In Joystick Gremlin, add this file on the plugins tab, hit the gear to config, bind the hat to the various inputs, set the outputs to buttons on the virtual stick
4. Click the gamepad looking thing in the toolbar and it turns green
5. Enjoy!
6. You can run as many instances of the plugin as desired (hit plus sign next to plugin to spawn more instances), so you could do all the hats if you wanted. It only has callbacks, so shouldn't hurt performance. Bonus, if you have multiple throttles, or a collective that you swap between, you could map a hat on each to the same virtual buttons so you don't have to change your VA/SRS bindings when switching devices

Hey Meatshield

Thanks a lot for this plugin. It finally makes these switches usable for me. I was really hoping the 2022 firmware will bring such an improvement, but unfortunately it didn't.

@VirPil, if you are listening, please, add this functionality to the firmware. It really makes no sense for a 4-way config to loose the signal if you keep pressing to one side and can't keep the finger 100% steady in the middle of this direction.

SnapRoll

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by SnapRoll

[Gruman]

Last week I received my Hawk-60 Collective Grip. Everything is great except the 8-Way Coolie hats. I'm using the center one for Cursor sleweing and talking to George (with a trigger modifier), but I cannot hit any of the 4 directions reliable. Are there any settings in the Virpil controller software, which improve the function of those coolie hats?

I would prefer to not use a external script.

Thanks