Nav lights unrealistic and useless for designed purpose.

[Terry Dactil]

Note that all 3 lights are visible. This is not correct.

The nav lights are designed to enable an external observer at a distance to determine the orientation of the aircraft and its flight path to assist in avoiding collisions.

There should be only one colored light visible at any one time and this will show the sector of the aircraft the observer is viewing.

The lights are deliberately restricted to be visible only at certain angles.

This aids the pilots in determining if a collision risk exists.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Yeah, because comparing an 80yo aircraft to modern standards always works…

[razo+r]

1 hour ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, because comparing an 80yo aircraft to modern standards always works…

You do realise though that not this comparsion is the issue but how DCS handles the lights and that most if not all aircraft are affected by this issue.

[Dunx]

The Hornet lights in VR, at certain distances, are a single blob twice the size of the aircraft itself.

I assume all lighting needs a review.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

3 hours ago, razo+r said:

You do realise though that not this comparsion is the issue but how DCS handles the lights and that most if not all aircraft are affected by this issue.

Yeah, but he starts at the very beginning (roughly) saying "it's wrong because I can see the lights at angles I shouldn't be able". I guess real life is also wrong cause I could see the lights of the Cessna at angles I shouldn't, not to mention all three of them at once . There're so many times real life is wrong according to chair pilot's standards…

Edited February 28, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Terry Dactil]

9 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, because comparing an 80yo aircraft to modern standards always works…

Do some research and you will find that the the aeronautical standards were derived from the maritime standards which go back to the mid 1800s. Apart from changing terminology like "2 points abaft the beam" into measurements in degrees, the regulations are a lot more than 80 years old and were well established in WW2 when the Mosquito came on the scene.

 

4 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, but he starts at the very beginning (roughly) saying "it's wrong because I can see the lights at angles I shouldn't be able". I guess real life is also wrong cause I could see the lights of the Cessna at angles I shouldn't, not to mention all three of them at once  

 

If in real life you can see lights from the wrong angles then you are not seeing the lights directly. You are close enough to see the dirty cover over the light, not the lamp itself.

 

4 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

There're so many times real life is wrong according to chair pilot's standards…

 

Yep. However, more than 18,000 hours flight time and LAME's qualifications should take me out of those chair pilot's standards. Your apology is accepted

The whole point here is that the navigation lights should be visible only in certain directions.  Here is a Mosquito nav light

It seems pretty obvious that it should not be visible from the other side or from the rear and that ED do not have the graphics correct.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Terry Dactil

[Ala13_ManOWar]

  Ok, then you know IRL also the glow of the lights are visible even when not directly seen, which makes sense with these kind of high illumination lamps, and I noticed even while a student since papers tell you the diagrams you show, but RL was definitely not like that . That's what DCS game engine tries to replicate, and I believe it's not only not bad, but the latest (yes, it has changed more or less recently, I you noticed) changes are quite good indeed and most of them quite true to life within a game engine limitations. It isn't perfect, but what I see on a screen is a pretty good representation of that I too know from RL, even the ghostly glow happening sometimes while you shouldn't see.

By the way, I hope you don't see the Christmas tree a Hornet is at night .

Edited February 28, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Andurula]

2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

  Ok, then you know IRL also the glow of the lights are visible even when not directly seen, 

 

Actually, that is completely false. Nav lights cannot be seen outside of their intended angles.  The OP is entirely correct.  

[Ala13_ManOWar]

13 hours ago, Andurula said:

Actually, that is completely false. Nav lights cannot be seen outside of their intended angles.  The OP is entirely correct.  

Yeah, I guess I've seen ghosts on the aeroplanes I've flown. You sure you see well mates? Hope you don't lose your licenses due to poor sight

[Terry Dactil]

Settle down chaps! 
This is a situation where everyone can be right.
It can be possible to see two lights at the same time.(but never three!)

I remember that the DC-3s I flew a long time ago had their navigation lights stuck on the wingtip in a little glass hemisphere about 2" or 5cm in diameter that was screened by a metal cover to give the appropriate sector visibility. There was also a little bit of perspex attached which protruded above the wingtip and its glow could be seen from the cockpit to confirm the light was OK. Therefor, in this case it certainly was possible to see two lights at once.  More modern aircraft tend to have the light built well into the wingtip and have a large transparent aerodynamic cover. This means that the light gets diffused by the cover and becomes visible, like on the DC-3, outside the desired sector, albeit at much reduced intensity. The rules and regulations allow for this and the overlap intensity must be no more than 10% that of the main beam. So yes, if you are close enough you may in some cases be able to see two lights, but at any appreciable distance - probably not. The whole point of this system is to enable a pilot to determine the orientation of an otherwise invisible aircraft by the color of a nav / position light. If he happens to have great eyesight and can see two lights, the correct one will be determined by its greater  intensity, and the system still works.

The problem I have with the DCS model is that all three lights are visible and the system does NOT work.

Reference:

Sec. 25.1389 — Position light distribution and intensities.
(3) Intensities in overlaps between adjacent signals. No intensity in any overlap between adjacent signals may exceed the values given in §25.1395, except that higher intensities in overlaps may be used with main beam intensities substantially greater than the minima specified in §§25.1391 and 25.1393 if the overlap intensities in relation to the main beam intensities do not adversely affect signal clarity. When the peak intensity of the forward position lights is more than 100 candles, the maximum overlap intensities between them may exceed the values given in §25.1395 if the overlap intensity in Area A is not more than 10 percent of peak position light intensity and the overlap intensity in Area B is not greater than 2.5 percent of peak position light intensity.

See in excruciating detail the full set of complicated rules and regulations for the Americans.

It has come a long way from the original "Let's stick some colored lights on this thing so you can tell which way it is pointing"

Federal Aviation Regulations
Sec. 25.1385 — Position light system installation.
https://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part25-1385-FAR.shtml

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Terry Dactil

[Ala13_ManOWar]

By the way, I've come to know recently I actually "see" more than regular people for some reasons I wouldn't discuss in public (feel free any of you to MP if you like), but you're right some things shouldn't happen according to actual regulations.

Anyhow, I was more into the "legal stuff says this, real life happens that…" thing, actual aeroplanes should be kept in perfect pristine conditions but actually you know in real operation many things which should be like whatever they are actually happens other different way… I remember mentioning the lights stuff to one of my instructors, "papers we're studying says this about lights but I can see all three lights from here which I shouldn't", his answer "well, you know, legal stuff says so many things but then again real life goes like that" .

[BuzzLine]

Sorry, obligatory reference.  

Thanks Terry Dactil for the comprehensive information, most interesting.

[Skewgear]

It's all well and good making the point about the glowing balloon implementation of the lights making them tricky to use for their intended purpose, but whenever I use nav lights in multiplayer everyone immediately assumes I've made a mistake and starts warning me I've left them on.