Real pilot: sustains 9.5G for 11 second while making conversation

[karasawa]

 

Even the civi at the back seat sustains high G better than the plot in DCS!

[Jagdgeschwader]

I think it depends more on the pilot's ability to withstand high G-Force and a lot more factors such as weight, growth and so on...

[Dragon1-1]

G tolerance varies across people. So, you'll get YT videos where they pull 9G and they're perfectly fine. G model could use improvement, especially to take the Viper's reclined seat into account, but at the same time, a lot people won't take it nearly as well. Also, fatigue has a lot to do with it. The other WWII sim has quite detailed modeling on that (of course, they don't have to simulate advanced anti-G techniques, just butt-clenching and the very first G suits).

[104th_Crunch]

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

... just butt-clenching and the very first G suits).

Ahh DCS, the ultimate butt clenching simulator. Haha!

Edited March 10, 2022 by 104th_Crunch

[Dragon1-1]

You may laugh, but that's a very real part of the anti-G technique. Tensioning you lower body muscles pushes the blood out of those parts and helps it get to the head, where it does more good than in the butt (hopefully, at least...  ). 

[wilbur81]

And here's an actual Viper pilot G-loc'ing after less than 2 seconds of 7G... life saved by GCAS. A person sitting still, staring straight forward in a centrifuge or in the back seat is WAY different than a pilot trying to actually fly, think, process, keep SA, check six, etc...

As for the reclined seat... all indications are that General Dynamics made that design decision for really one reason only: to make the seat and pilot fit into the tiny cockpit of the Viper. The little bit of extra G-comfort was merely serendipitous... Hence why all the new modern fighters that are 9-G capable (Rafale, Typhoon, F-35, F-22, etc.) did not implement the 30 degree sit incline. People that think a pilot can tool around at 9 G's at will are just wrong. One of the main reasons for the G-warmups done before every BFM flight isn't merely to check the bleed air to the suit, but also for the pilot to see where he's at that particular day. His sleep, hydration, diet, mood, etc. could all dictate that, on one day, he might be able to pull and sustain 9g for a few goes... on another day, 6 or 7G might be too much. Anyone who's ever done any weight-lifting knows that some days feel like you've lost a ton of ground compared to what you lifted last week.

Edited March 11, 2022 by wilbur81

[Hueyman]

Err..

I’m really not knowledgable about Jet Fighters but what I do know is that our Rafale National DO have a Martin Maker seat with 29° incline.

[wilbur81]

2 hours ago, Hueyman said:

Err..

I’m really not knowledgable about Jet Fighters but what I do know is that our Rafale National DO have a Martin Maker seat with 29° incline.

Hmmm... Interesting. They certainly look different to me... but I'll stand corrected, I guess.

[SCPanda]

7 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

As for the reclined seat... all indications are that General Dynamics made that design decision for really one reason only: to make the seat and pilot fit into the tiny cockpit of the Viper. The little bit of extra G-comfort was merely serendipitous...

False. It's for both reasons. The engineers decided to go with the 30 degree angle becuase it gives more G tolerance AND make the seat fit in the cockpit. They tested that 45 degree is the best for G-tolerance but it's bad for pilot's neck. Still, with 30 degrees, real pilots have confirmed pulling same amount of Gs feels like pulling 1-2 less G in the Viper than in a jet without the inclined seat. 
 

This is from the USAF website: "The seat-back angle was expanded from the usual 13 degrees to 30 degrees, increasing pilot comfort and gravity force tolerance." (https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104505/f-16-fighting-falcon/)

BTW, F-22 is seat is 22 degrees. Probably tuned it down due to Viper pilots complaining about the neck problems they all got. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by SCPanda

[SCPanda]

7 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

And here's an actual Viper pilot G-loc'ing after less than 2 seconds of 7G... life saved by GCAS

An indivual case proves nothing. 

[Nealius]

The only reason that pilot G-loc'd at 7G is because he f'ed up his straining maneuver, or was in a situation where he had to rapidly pull G without any time to prepare for it. IIRC the straining maneuver has to be initiated before pulling G. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Nealius

[wilbur81]

My buddy who flies Vipers for the 79th FS (YGBSM) at Shaw is 6ft 2in he said, aside from the neck problems that all the guys have that keep the base PT on full time therapy duty, a big frustration for him is that he actually has to crouch down and forward to even see through the HUD which, with the added awkwardness of the JHMCS, makes the neck problems even worse. Without the seat recline, my friend would literally not fit in the cockpit... particularly with the old-Viper-pilot-fist-above-the-helmet-test. 

Given that the added G tolerance is less than 1 G as said above, no new fighter design has implemented this. The benefits do not appear to outweigh the grief. I'm 5ft 8in barefoot and when I've sat in the Viper cockpit, it seems to fit absolutely perfectly, like a glove. The tall guys? Sheesh!

Edited March 11, 2022 by wilbur81

[wilbur81]

11 hours ago, SCPanda said:

An indivual case proves nothing. 

Nonsense, sir. Tell that to the USAF. You think that they implemented GCAS into the Viper community first  based upon one individual case or because they were bored? 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by wilbur81

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, wilbur81 said:

You think that they implemented GCAS into the Viper community first  based upon one individual case or because they were bored?

GLOC isn't the only reason GCAS exists. Ever hear of Spatial D? Or target fixation? Or simply misjuding maneuvers when NOE? Or the resulting CFIT from those and other situations, like maybe being heads down too long? What about depressurization or OBOGS malfunction?

Edited March 11, 2022 by Nealius

[wilbur81]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

GLOC isn't the only reason GCAS exists. Ever hear of Spatial D? Or target fixation?

 

That is true. And yes. I've also heard of plenty of G-loc deaths... in the Eagle and Viper communities. Eagle, Hornet, Viper, Raptor, Talon, and all others have to deal with spatial disorientation and target fixation. But there are a higher number of G-loc incidents in the Viper community... leading (among other reasons for sure) to Viper getting it first.

To get back to the original point made: F-16 pilots, along with ALL OTHER 9G platform drivers, can and will G-loc if they are not at their best... and some who are "9G Monsters" will have a bad day where, after the G-warmup, they'll say, "Not today for me..." 
 

It's not that hard.

I know what everybody wants, though: This is a game and we want our virtual pilot to be that one guy who can talk comfortably at 9G's for 60+ seconds... and we want him only on the days that he's at his best... or we'll just pull a Growling Sidewinder and turn off G-effects, pull the Paddle-Switch in the Hornet, etc. etc. etc.

 

[darkman222]

I did not follow the entire conversation but what I think is that the virtual DCS pilot should be able to sustain 9G or what ever Gs as long as necessary for certain aircraft specific tactics to work.

You can look up the caveat manouver for the Viper. It consists of multiple lead turns and slowly gaining angles merge after merge. This only works if the virtual pilot allows for it and what real pilots train for.

[Mars Exulte]

On 3/11/2022 at 12:21 PM, wilbur81 said:

That is true. And yes. I've also heard of plenty of G-loc deaths... in the Eagle and Viper communities. Eagle, Hornet, Viper, Raptor, Talon, and all others have to deal with spatial disorientation and target fixation. But there are a higher number of G-loc incidents in the Viper community... leading (among other reasons for sure) to Viper getting it first.

To get back to the original point made: F-16 pilots, along with ALL OTHER 9G platform drivers, can and will G-loc if they are not at their best... and some who are "9G Monsters" will have a bad day where, after the G-warmup, they'll say, "Not today for me..." 
 

It's not that hard.

I know what everybody wants, though: This is a game and we want our virtual pilot to be that one guy who can talk comfortably at 9G's for 60+ seconds... and we want him only on the days that he's at his best... or we'll just pull a Growling Sidewinder and turn off G-effects, pull the Paddle-Switch in the Hornet, etc. etc. etc.

 

 It's shuper realishtic, guysh, jeeshush, why do we alwaysh argue about thish? If Lemon can do it, anybody can, all these zhits jusht improve my natural aerodynamicsh!

[Cmptohocah]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:25 PM, karasawa said:

 

Even the civi at the back seat sustains high G better than the plot in DCS!

From what I can see he was blinking and I guess at this high G that's pretty much all what you can do. In DCS however, one is free to flip what ever swtiches in the cockpit and move the pilot's head efortlesly while sustaining high G forces.