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F-16C vs F/A-18C for BVR & AA in general


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For some time I have had curiosity for input / knowledge / information as to determining which aircraft is most suited  for BVR & AA in general.

I know that the Hornet can carry much more missiles and has access to Sparrow missiles, however it is also less rapid. I have considered the impact of certain variables such as if the plane is in flights of formation or if it is operating as a single unit. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. If you have considered this subject as well, then I would be interested to hear your perspective.

 

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I’m a weird cat

F-16 for me is easier for Air to Air

F/A-18 makes sense for Air to Ground and Carrier Landings

Both have their strengths


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hace 40 minutos, ruddy122 dijo:

I’m a weird cat

F-16 for me is easier for Air to Air

F/A-18 makes sense for Air to Ground and Carrier Landings

Both have their strengths


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I like the F-16C for AA as well, however I dislike the absence of the mode advanced MFDs and navigation, etcetera. The F/A-18C has an internal system of ECM as well, where as the F-16C requires a separate pod.

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The F-16 is considered better in AA because of its acceleration. It can get into an advantageous position to fire on a target much faster than the Hornet. The AIM-7 doesn't matter, the AMRAAM is better at everything, and while the F-18 can carry more missiles, the 6 MRM's on the F-16 are enough and they don't come with nearly as big a drag penalty.

The Hornet has slightly more radar range, but not enough to give it a huge advantage. Keep in mind the F-18 is still capable at AA, it's not helpless, it's just that is has a major weakness in its lack of speed. You can actually get around this by using only the low drag missile stations, but then you only get 2 BVR missiles.

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Also the planes fight different

F-16 is a rate fighter

F/A-18 is a High Alpha fighter

Different ways to fight plus Hornet Air to Air Radar in DCS lot of stuff to configure


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Performance wise:

F-16 better at BVR

F/A-18 better at WVR

 

For AA in general the hornet has much better sensor fusion an on board jammer, and is much better at sorting and classifying contacts and providing more SA in general. Personally that is more attractive to me then hucking amraams a little farther and faster. Because at the end of the day the F-15 is still BVR king. The viper just does it a little bit better the hornet. It's not decisive, SA is is. Imo 

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hace 5 horas, Exorcet dijo:

The F-16 is considered better in AA because of its acceleration. It can get into an advantageous position to fire on a target much faster than the Hornet. The AIM-7 doesn't matter, the AMRAAM is better at everything, and while the F-18 can carry more missiles, the 6 MRM's on the F-16 are enough and they don't come with nearly as big a drag penalty.

The Hornet has slightly more radar range, but not enough to give it a huge advantage. Keep in mind the F-18 is still capable at AA, it's not helpless, it's just that is has a major weakness in its lack of speed. You can actually get around this by using only the low drag missile stations, but then you only get 2 BVR missiles.

I was unaware of low-drag stations of missiles on the F/A-18C. This is interesting.

hace 3 horas, Wizard_03 dijo:

For AA in general the hornet has much better sensor fusion an on board jammer, and is much better at sorting and classifying contacts and providing more SA in general. Personally that is more attractive to me then hucking amraams a little farther and faster. Because at the end of the day the F-15 is still BVR king. The viper just does it a little bit better the hornet. It's not decisive, SA is is. Imo 

I can appreciate this perspective. What good is performance / Speed if you can not locate your targets in order to deploy ordinance and to employ your speed? Interesting...

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33 minutes ago, El buscador de la verdad said:

I can appreciate this perspective. What good is performance / Speed if you can not locate your targets in order to deploy ordinance and to employ your speed? Interesting...

He is telling you that Hornet is better at SA, not that a Viper can't locate his target. Viper's radar is more than enough to locate way before you enter on Amraams range.

Internal jammer it's a plus but you have to take in mind that the internal jammer uses the same radar antenna so if you are jamming you can't use your radar

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1 hour ago, El buscador de la verdad said:

I was unaware of low-drag stations of missiles on the F/A-18C. This is interesting.

Pretty much anything but the underwing stations. The F/A-18's pylons are extremely draggy, but it has 2 low drag fuselage stations and wingtip stations are usually low drag as well.

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1 hour ago, 5ephir0th said:

He is telling you that Hornet is better at SA, not that a Viper can't locate his target. Viper's radar is more than enough to locate way before you enter on Amraams range.

Internal jammer it's a plus but you have to take in mind that the internal jammer uses the same radar antenna so if you are jamming you can't use your radar

It's primarily a defensive system anyway. In the wild the hornet is suppose to have a prowler or growler nearby to do the offensive stuff. The podded solution on the viper can do a little of both. But it's all or nothing, you have to carry the pod in any realistic AA situation because they didn't end up putting an internal jammer in like they wanted too.

 

So your stuck with an overall better system in the viper but you get the weight and drag penalty as well even if you just need it to protect yourself after you take your shots and turn cold. Plus is has to take up a fuel or weapon station. Which is already a big concern in the viper. 

 

But both aircraft are very comparable however. I wouldn't say that the hornet is better or the viper is helpless I just prefer the hornet, and the big screens and little things like having RWR nails on the radar page and other small Quality of life stuff that help me build SA faster, that I personally would trade some of the vipers speed and acceleration for. 

 

A bigger and I think very important advantage the hornet has is in it's strike capabilities. Both aircraft can self escort but I think where the hornet really shines over the viper is in the ability to carry a bigger and more flexible strike package. The USAF doesn't really use the viper in all the missions the USMC and USN use the hornet in, the USAF has the F-15E for a lot of the strike stuff so it's not really the US vipers fault that it hasn't been developed as far as the hornet has. But it can carry more further at the end of the day. Which is something to consider as pure AA is not as desirable as multirole theses days but I digress.

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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8 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

For AA in general the hornet has much better sensor fusion an on board jammer, and is much better at sorting and classifying contacts and providing more SA in general. Personally that is more attractive to me then hucking amraams a little farther and faster. Because at the end of the day the F-15 is still BVR king. The viper just does it a little bit better the hornet. It's not decisive, SA is is. Imo 

Hornet's SA is not better than Viper. Viper's SA is awesome. 

One thing I hate about the Hornet in terms of SA: its RWR location in the cockpit. Due to poor placement of its RWR screen, you have to put the EW page on one of the MFD. Then, you have to choose between having either the EW page on one of the two screens on top (other one for radar obviously), or put it on the screen on the bottom. On top: you cannot see the SA page, you have to look down to see the SA page, making it difficult to have an all-time situational awareness. On the bottom, you can see the SA page all the time, but you are fucked on the RWR side. Yes, I know you can have RWR on HUD and JHMCS, but a top down view of the RWR is better and less confusing they missiles are flying at you. 

In comparison, Viper's cockpit layout is perfectly built for air to air (makes sense since it's an AIR foce jet). RWR, 2 MFD displaying radar and HSI right in front of your eyes, no need to look down at anything. If you know how to work with a Viper, it's your best friend at shooting bandits down. 

Viper's speed is also better at chasing bandits down or running away if you need to. No jets can outrun the Viper in DCS and have the same level of BVR capability. Hornet's speed sometimes can be frustatiing: you will find yourself in situations when you see a Viper getting away from you and can't do nothing or struggle to run away when a Viper, Eagle, or Tomcat is on your ass. 

2 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

o your stuck with an overall better system in the viper but you get the weight and drag penalty as well even if you just need it to protect yourself after you take your shots and turn cold. Plus is has to take up a fuel or weapon station. Which is already a big concern in the viper. 

You really don't know how to BVR in a Viper don't you? Jammer pod goes on the center station. Center station is not for weapons, period. You don't need a third external fuel tank for BVR, center tank will just make your jet more draggy and 2 tanks is far more than enough fuel unless you are too dumb to go full burner at all time in low altitude. Flying low is not how a Viper should fight anyway. Regarding drag, it's negligible. With the jammer pod Viper is still fast, and much faster than Hornet. 

Another thing notice, just go look at the scoreboard in the PvP severs. Vipers are always on top. Hornets? Not so much. 


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Both platforms are good for defensive counter air. Neither of them have the radar nor the kinnematics for really offensive tactics. That being said, the F-16 has better kinnematics than the 18. If you have a 80+nm commit, you can take ~40nm high Pk shots (assuming bandits don't turn around and you had radar contact).

But both jets are really good at shooting down waves upon waves of MiG-23 strikers. My buddies and I regularly do 4v24 DCAs against MiG-23s with the F-16.

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7 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Hornet's SA is not better than Viper. Viper's SA is awesome. 

One thing I hate about the Hornet in terms of SA: its RWR location in the cockpit. Due to poor placement of its RWR screen, you have to put the EW page on one of the MFD. Then, you have to choose between having either the EW page on one of the two screens on top (other one for radar obviously), or put it on the screen on the bottom. On top: you cannot see the SA page, you have to look down to see the SA page, making it difficult to have an all-time situational awareness. On the bottom, you can see the SA page all the time, but you are fucked on the RWR side. Yes, I know you can have RWR on HUD and JHMCS, but a top down view of the RWR is better and less confusing they missiles are flying at you. 

 

Hornet can reflect the RWR just infront of your nose, to the HUD. Put it to the hud and you dont even need to move your eyeballs to see the rwr

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hace 3 horas, Devastator dijo:

Hornet can reflect the RWR just infront of your nose, to the HUD. Put it to the hud and you dont even need to move your eyeballs to see the rwr

Hmmm. Interesting... 🧐

hace 10 horas, TheBigTatanka dijo:

Both platforms are good for defensive counter air. Neither of them have the radar nor the kinnematics for really offensive tactics. That being said, the F-16 has better kinnematics than the 18. If you have a 80+nm commit, you can take ~40nm high Pk shots (assuming bandits don't turn around and you had radar contact).

But both jets are really good at shooting down waves upon waves of MiG-23 strikers. My buddies and I regularly do 4v24 DCAs against MiG-23s with the F-16.

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The Mig-23 does not really have much of a chance. Haha

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3 hours ago, Devastator said:

Hornet can reflect the RWR just infront of your nose, to the HUD. Put it to the hud and you dont even need to move your eyeballs to see the rwr

While this is a useful feature, I've found that it can make the HUD pretty cluttered. The Hornet gives you a ton of flexibility with regards to displaying information, but I feel like the actual layout of everything is in general poor and somewhat negates the advantages of having more and larger screens.

In the F-16 there are less options but everything is organized in such a way that I don't feel a need to move things around. The F-18 overall has the avionics edge, but it's not leaps and bounds ahead of the F-16 in my opinion. Just a slight advantage.

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12 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Yes, I know you can have RWR on HUD and JHMCS, but a top down view of the RWR is better and less confusing they missiles are flying at you. 

 

The RWR on the HUD/JHMCS is literally a top down view. It works exactly the same way as the RWR MFD page and the (worthless) circle RWR buried in the bottom of the pit. I never pull up the RWR page in the Hornet because the nails on the HUD work the same way...and it's actually quite brilliant to have it right there in the HUD/JHMCS.

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hace 3 minutos, wilbur81 dijo:

The RWR on the HUD/JHMCS is literally a top down view. It works exactly the same way as the RWR MFD page and the (worthless) circle RWR buried in the bottom of the pit. I never pull up the RWR page in the Hornet because the nails on the HUD work the same way...and it's actually quite brilliant to have it right there in the HUD/JHMCS.

I always have the HMS mounted and active of the F-16C and the F/A-18C.

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16 hours ago, 5ephir0th said:

Internal jammer it's a plus but you have to take in mind that the internal jammer uses the same radar antenna so if you are jamming you can't use your radar

Nitpick, but it doesn't use the same antenna, it has its own antennae. The problem is that it jams the RADAR (which can be worked around by using a different channel, but those aren't implemented yet).

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13 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Another thing notice, just go look at the scoreboard in the PvP severs. Vipers are always on top. Hornets? Not so much. 

This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper. A few things to factor in:

  • The Viper user interface in the cockpit is much easier on the workload and generally provides a superior picture compared to a Hornet.
  • The Viper can dictate the terms of the fight by running the enemy down or running away from the enemy. The GTFO decision range for a Hornet is much longer than a Viper resulting in bigger room for error to just peace out. In the Hornet most of the time you just have to fight to the death, especially flying solo.

Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane. There are many factors which contribute to that result (for instance the fact they are mostly on red, where also all the flankers are placed which are notoriously deadly against clueless people).

Overall the Hornet has more tricks available and has a higher skill ceiling due to the workload and the available tools. The main thing gimping it right now is your radar being cluttered up with all the missiles that are in the air.

 

Another factor why the Vipers are often more successful is the yeet factor. A lot of the Viper drivers just go in at M1.6 and shoot a bunch of slammers at long / medium range and there are plenty of people who get killed by these shots. Same goes for Eagle drivers going M2.0+ at 50k ft. This type of flight profile is pointless on a public server. You either kill the other guy because he was an idiot or you wasted a missile because he knows how to read a flight picture. I mean I guess if you're just flying for a luagh then it might be fun but ever since I'm flying DCS I do it to train and there is no training in rolling a dice without risk for yourself.

Against good opponents altitude is almost irrelevant. Especially for a Viper because you can't look down against anything right now.

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2 hours ago, TAW_Blaze said:

This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper.

Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane. There are many factors which contribute to that result (for instance the fact they are mostly on red, where also all the flankers are placed which are notoriously deadly against clueless people).

Overall the Hornet has more tricks available and has a higher skill ceiling due to the workload and the available tools. The main thing gimping it right now is your radar being cluttered up with all the missiles that are in the air.

Another factor why the Vipers are often more successful is the yeet factor. A lot of the Viper drivers just go in at M1.6 and shoot a bunch of slammers at long / medium range and there are plenty of people who get killed by these shots. Same goes for Eagle drivers going M2.0+ at 50k ft. This type of flight profile is pointless on a public server. You either kill the other guy because he was an idiot or you wasted a missile because he knows how to read a flight picture. I mean I guess if you're just flying for a luagh then it might be fun but ever since I'm flying DCS I do it to train and there is no training in rolling a dice without risk for yourself.

Against good opponents altitude is almost irrelevant. Especially for a Viper because you can't look down against anything right now.

Couldn't have said it much better. 👍 

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This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper. A few things to factor in:
  • The Viper user interface in the cockpit is much easier on the workload and generally provides a superior picture compared to a Hornet.
  • The Viper can dictate the terms of the fight by running the enemy down or running away from the enemy. The GTFO decision range for a Hornet is much longer than a Viper resulting in bigger room for error to just peace out. In the Hornet most of the time you just have to fight to the death, especially flying solo.
Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane. There are many factors which contribute to that result (for instance the fact they are mostly on red, where also all the flankers are placed which are notoriously deadly against clueless people).
Overall the Hornet has more tricks available and has a higher skill ceiling due to the workload and the available tools. The main thing gimping it right now is your radar being cluttered up with all the missiles that are in the air.
 
Another factor why the Vipers are often more successful is the yeet factor. A lot of the Viper drivers just go in at M1.6 and shoot a bunch of slammers at long / medium range and there are plenty of people who get killed by these shots. Same goes for Eagle drivers going M2.0+ at 50k ft. This type of flight profile is pointless on a public server. You either kill the other guy because he was an idiot or you wasted a missile because he knows how to read a flight picture. I mean I guess if you're just flying for a luagh then it might be fun but ever since I'm flying DCS I do it to train and there is no training in rolling a dice without risk for yourself.
Against good opponents altitude is almost irrelevant. Especially for a Viper because you can't look down against anything right now.

Well said.
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hace 10 horas, TAW_Blaze dijo:

This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper. A few things to factor in:

  • The Viper user interface in the cockpit is much easier on the workload and generally provides a superior picture compared to a Hornet.
  • The Viper can dictate the terms of the fight by running the enemy down or running away from the enemy. The GTFO decision range for a Hornet is much longer than a Viper resulting in bigger room for error to just peace out. In the Hornet most of the time you just have to fight to the death, especially flying solo.

Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane. There are many factors which contribute to that result (for instance the fact they are mostly on red, where also all the flankers are placed which are notoriously deadly against clueless people).

Overall the Hornet has more tricks available and has a higher skill ceiling due to the workload and the available tools. The main thing gimping it right now is your radar being cluttered up with all the missiles that are in the air.

 

Another factor why the Vipers are often more successful is the yeet factor. A lot of the Viper drivers just go in at M1.6 and shoot a bunch of slammers at long / medium range and there are plenty of people who get killed by these shots. Same goes for Eagle drivers going M2.0+ at 50k ft. This type of flight profile is pointless on a public server. You either kill the other guy because he was an idiot or you wasted a missile because he knows how to read a flight picture. I mean I guess if you're just flying for a luagh then it might be fun but ever since I'm flying DCS I do it to train and there is no training in rolling a dice without risk for yourself.

Against good opponents altitude is almost irrelevant. Especially for a Viper because you can't look down against anything right now.

This analysis is well-founded. I believe that the Hornet would excel in flights of formation and with mass spam of AMRAAM ( AIM 120 C-5 ). 🙂

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Am 11.3.2022 um 18:11 schrieb TAW_Blaze:

This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper. A few things to factor in:

  • The Viper user interface in the cockpit is much easier on the workload and generally provides a superior picture compared to a Hornet.
  • The Viper can dictate the terms of the fight by running the enemy down or running away from the enemy. The GTFO decision range for a Hornet is much longer than a Viper resulting in bigger room for error to just peace out. In the Hornet most of the time you just have to fight to the death, especially flying solo.

Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane. There are many factors which contribute to that result (for instance the fact they are mostly on red, where also all the flankers are placed which are notoriously deadly against clueless people).

Overall the Hornet has more tricks available and has a higher skill ceiling due to the workload and the available tools. The main thing gimping it right now is your radar being cluttered up with all the missiles that are in the air.

 

Another factor why the Vipers are often more successful is the yeet factor. A lot of the Viper drivers just go in at M1.6 and shoot a bunch of slammers at long / medium range and there are plenty of people who get killed by these shots. Same goes for Eagle drivers going M2.0+ at 50k ft. This type of flight profile is pointless on a public server. You either kill the other guy because he was an idiot or you wasted a missile because he knows how to read a flight picture. I mean I guess if you're just flying for a luagh then it might be fun but ever since I'm flying DCS I do it to train and there is no training in rolling a dice without risk for yourself.

Against good opponents altitude is almost irrelevant. Especially for a Viper because you can't look down against anything right now.

That is true.
However, you also need to keep in mind that there has been a hardcore F-16 group out there for more than a decade, and whenever you meet those guys it means that he knows what he is doing. At least in BVR, in dogfights the Viper is no match until the FM is fixed (soon).
Plus, the F-16 is mostly flown without ECM in DCS, because the disadvantages of the ECM (drag, limited radar usage when using it) are not as present as its advantages for most pilots (because a lot of them don't make use of it in BVR). In addition, the ECM doesn't work against all radars as of now, it has a very limited effect against FC3 planes as of now.
So the F-16 flies without, while the F-18's fly with a double 120 rack- having 6 120's and 2 heaters. The pylon does have quite some drag. Plus, no one flies with only 6 missiles, so that makes two more than a Viper with all the drag that comes with it.
That leads to the Viper (as of a GS loadout) being considerably faster. However, this might even change with the FM update (I am pretty sure it does). If you fly realistic loadouts, the jets are quite comparable, but GS is the wrong place for that.
I am curious how the yeet factor will be after the update- but it is more or less theoretical since the 120s battery runs out after 80s which kinda limits it at altitude. And the poor look down makes it hard to maintain a lock at launch ranges.
As for the skill set- I think maintaining SA is on a similar level, and while Link 16 helps, it is a matter of the pilot. The JHMCS on the hornet is better, and the Viper has a better HSD than the SA page of the hornet. The jet doesn't build SA for you, it only helps you with it. The feature set of the Viper made a large step in the last year, and it become more and more complex, with only very few people mastering both the Viper and the Hornet. And I see many people struggling with the newer and advanced functions of the Viper.


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On 3/10/2022 at 7:39 PM, SCPanda said:

That might change after the new FM changes for F-16 comes out. 

I doubt it, the hornets ITR is still significantly better, it's dangerous in a guns fight. It's a death sentence with SRMs Improvements in G onset and acceleration won't change that. 

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