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F-16C vs F/A-18C for BVR & AA in general


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On 3/10/2022 at 8:04 PM, SCPanda said:

Hornet's SA is not better than Viper. Viper's SA is awesome. 

One thing I hate about the Hornet in terms of SA: its RWR location in the cockpit. Due to poor placement of its RWR screen, you have to put the EW page on one of the MFD. Then, you have to choose between having either the EW page on one of the two screens on top (other one for radar obviously), or put it on the screen on the bottom. On top: you cannot see the SA page, you have to look down to see the SA page, making it difficult to have an all-time situational awareness. On the bottom, you can see the SA page all the time, but you are fucked on the RWR side. Yes, I know you can have RWR on HUD and JHMCS, but a top down view of the RWR is better and less confusing they missiles are flying at you. 

In comparison, Viper's cockpit layout is perfectly built for air to air (makes sense since it's an AIR foce jet). RWR, 2 MFD displaying radar and HSI right in front of your eyes, no need to look down at anything. If you know how to work with a Viper, it's your best friend at shooting bandits down. 

Viper's speed is also better at chasing bandits down or running away if you need to. No jets can outrun the Viper in DCS and have the same level of BVR capability. Hornet's speed sometimes can be frustatiing: you will find yourself in situations when you see a Viper getting away from you and can't do nothing or struggle to run away when a Viper, Eagle, or Tomcat is on your ass. 

You really don't know how to BVR in a Viper don't you? Jammer pod goes on the center station. Center station is not for weapons, period. You don't need a third external fuel tank for BVR, center tank will just make your jet more draggy and 2 tanks is far more than enough fuel unless you are too dumb to go full burner at all time in low altitude. Flying low is not how a Viper should fight anyway. Regarding drag, it's negligible. With the jammer pod Viper is still fast, and much faster than Hornet. 

Another thing notice, just go look at the scoreboard in the PvP severs. Vipers are always on top. Hornets? Not so much. 

 

I said I like the SA in the hornet for me. I didn't say it was better or ineffective in the viper. I personally prefer the hornet and its large displays. I can barely see the Gameboys In the viper lol 

The hornet doesn't have to choose between a third tank or a jammer. And between the wing tanks and the center tank. I'll take the center because it's 9G rated in the viper, so I don't need to drop it once the fight goes WVR but it's unfortunate I don't have that option realistically because I pretty much have to lug around a jammer pod. So after dropping my tanks I've got a pretty short legged bird. Hopefully the base I need to land at is right under me. Hornet has fuel for days compared to the viper and that drop tank situation is a big factor of that. Internal jammer is plus, no way around it. 

Realistic counter air missions usually have a patrol or long ingress segment and fuel becomes a big deal in those situations. But this is DCS so you can just take off fly for 5 minutes and get into a fight. 

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1 hour ago, Wizard_03 said:

I said I like the SA in the hornet for me. I didn't say it was better or ineffective in the viper. I personally prefer the hornet and its large displays. I can barely see the Gameboys In the viper lol 

The hornet doesn't have to choose between a third tank or a jammer. And between the wing tanks and the center tank. I'll take the center because it's 9G rated in the viper, so I don't need to drop it once the fight goes WVR but it's unfortunate I don't have that option realistically because I pretty much have to lug around a jammer pod. So after dropping my tanks I've got a pretty short legged bird. Hopefully the base I need to land at is right under me. Hornet has fuel for days compared to the viper and that drop tank situation is a big factor of that. Internal jammer is plus, no way around it. 

Realistic counter air missions usually have a patrol or long ingress segment and fuel becomes a big deal in those situations. But this is DCS so you can just take off fly for 5 minutes and get into a fight. 

A third tank on the F-16 is pretty superfluous. It's extremely fuel efficient, more so than the F-18 for sure. The Hornet can only match the F-16's range in a heavy AG situation, and the current F-16 flight model may be handicapping the plane right now since sometimes a single fuel tank provides as much range as two tanks due in part to the increased drag from AoA.

The lack of internal jammer on the F-16 is an issue, but the performance gap between the two planes is so large that the F-16 holds an edge with nearly any loadout. Certainly any AA comparable AA loadout will let the Viper outaccelerate and outclimb the Hornet. And not only is the F-16 naturally more fuel efficient, its lower drag allows you to use mil power in situations where the Hornet would need AB to keep up.

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On 3/12/2022 at 3:11 AM, TAW_Blaze said:

This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper. A few things to factor in:

  • The Viper user interface in the cockpit is much easier on the workload and generally provides a superior picture compared to a Hornet.
  • The Viper can dictate the terms of the fight by running the enemy down or running away from the enemy. The GTFO decision range for a Hornet is much longer than a Viper resulting in bigger room for error to just peace out. In the Hornet most of the time you just have to fight to the death, especially flying solo.

Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane. There are many factors which contribute to that result (for instance the fact they are mostly on red, where also all the flankers are placed which are notoriously deadly against clueless people).

Overall the Hornet has more tricks available and has a higher skill ceiling due to the workload and the available tools. The main thing gimping it right now is your radar being cluttered up with all the missiles that are in the air.

 

Another factor why the Vipers are often more successful is the yeet factor. A lot of the Viper drivers just go in at M1.6 and shoot a bunch of slammers at long / medium range and there are plenty of people who get killed by these shots. Same goes for Eagle drivers going M2.0+ at 50k ft. This type of flight profile is pointless on a public server. You either kill the other guy because he was an idiot or you wasted a missile because he knows how to read a flight picture. I mean I guess if you're just flying for a luagh then it might be fun but ever since I'm flying DCS I do it to train and there is no training in rolling a dice without risk for yourself.

Against good opponents altitude is almost irrelevant. Especially for a Viper because you can't look down against anything right now.

Lol I wouldn’t say having the ability to click through a over complex MFD system means a higher skill set. The hornet is also the only jet I don’t bother binding trim cause it flies on rails which is great for a fighter but boring for a skill set. Most hornet drivers gave up on the F-16 cause it was too hard to land at the beginning.

 

IMO The F-16 has a harder flight model for now, it may change in the future. This is mostly due to a inferior FCS and higher stall speeds. You use one weapon and the viper wants to do rolls like a 10 ton bag was dropped on one wing, Plus it looses speed faster then a comet but this change is coming but it’s still something viper drivers had to over come. You also must manage your speed much more in the viper both the top and bottom end. The F-16 also has less SA then the F-18 so you have to be in your game more especially due to the F-18 HMD just shows you everything. The F-16 has less iPhone screens so you have to be setup well and truly before any fight. In WVR the F-16 radar takes a significant amount of time more then the F-18 to acquire a lock.

 

The hornet has its own skill sets as does the F-16, they are both better are something over the other. But your dreaming if you think your better then others cause you have to click more menu buttons then someone else or pull on the stick as hard as possible and shoot aim-9x, requires zero skill.


Edited by Blinky.ben
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Lol I wouldn’t say having the ability to click through a over complex MFD system means a higher skill set. The hornet is also the only jet I don’t bother binding trim cause it flies on rails which is great for a fighter but boring for a skill set. Most hornet drivers gave up on the F-16 cause it was too hard to land at the beginning.
 
IMO The F-16 has a harder flight model for now, it may change in the future. This is mostly due to a inferior FCS and higher stall speeds. You use one weapon and the viper wants to do rolls like a 10 ton bag was dropped on one wing, Plus it looses speed faster then a comet but this change is coming but it’s still something viper drivers had to over come. You also must manage your speed much more in the viper both the top and bottom end. The F-16 also has less SA then the F-18 so you have to be in your game more especially due to the F-18 HMD just shows you everything. The F-16 has less iPhone screens so you have to be setup well and truly before any fight. In WVR the F-16 radar takes a significant amount of time more then the F-18 to acquire a lock.
 
The hornet has its own skill sets as does the F-16, they are both better are something over the other. But your dreaming if you think your better then others cause you have to click more menu buttons then someone else or pull on the stick as hard as possible and shoot aim-9x, requires zero skill.
I am quite sure he is not saying "higher skill gap" over how many buttons your are clicking, he is talking about how tactically employ the hornet with its sensor functionality it can provide to be as effective or more (to the viper).

On the other hand, the hornet is totally HOTAS for me in A2A. Which buttons do you need to click in the MFD?


And lastly, how on earth are you flying a hornet (if u do) without trim mapped? :/
Is the most absurd thing I've seen here? Are you constantly holding your stick to one side after dropping any ordnance? Even a amraam will make you roll a bit to one side, a gbu 10 needs ton of trim or even a harm will require quite of it...

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42 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

he is talking about how tactically employ the hornet with its sensor functionality it can provide to be as effective or more (to the viper).

This statement “This is largely a result of the lower skill floor required to fly a Viper.”

suggest differently.

I would agree the hornet has better systems then the viper to be more effective particularly in the pre planned missions. But that’s not skill that’s just better tools.

 

As for tactics well they both are almost on par but where one has the advantage the other one doesn’t. The better skilled driver is the one that mastered how to make the other play into their game.

 

42 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

And lastly, how on earth are you flying a hornet (if u do) without trim mapped? 😕
Is the most absurd thing I've seen here? Are you constantly holding your stick to one side after dropping any ordnance? Even a amraam will make you roll a bit to one side, a gbu 10 needs ton of trim or even a harm will require quite of it...

I do fly the hornet I prefer the Viper as I find it more old school and fun but carrier ops is hard to move away from.

 


Edited by Blinky.ben
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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Blinky.ben:

I do fly the hornet I prefer the Viper as I find it more old school and fun but carrier ops is hard to move away from.

I would like to say the same, yet I find the carrier ops so complicated that it is the reason why I fly both my hornet and the tomcat so little. I can trap, refuel and all that, but a whole different set of comms and procedures make it really hard to get into carrier ops. 

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On 3/11/2022 at 4:21 PM, wilbur81 said:

The RWR on the HUD/JHMCS is literally a top down view. It works exactly the same way as the RWR MFD page and the (worthless) circle RWR buried in the bottom of the pit. I never pull up the RWR page in the Hornet because the nails on the HUD work the same way...and it's actually quite brilliant to have it right there in the HUD/JHMCS.

Such things are nice, but in the RWR of the F18, unfortunately, the distances of the approaching missiles are not displayed.

In the F16 RWR you can read or guess all this.


In the F16 RWR you can
Distance of the missile
speed of the missile
and detect dead missiles


and this is already an enormous advantage compared to the F18 RWR.

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20 hours ago, Exorcet said:

A third tank on the F-16 is pretty superfluous. It's extremely fuel efficient, more so than the F-18 for sure. The Hornet can only match the F-16's range in a heavy AG situation, and the current F-16 flight model may be handicapping the plane right now since sometimes a single fuel tank provides as much range as two tanks due in part to the increased drag from AoA.

The lack of internal jammer on the F-16 is an issue, but the performance gap between the two planes is so large that the F-16 holds an edge with nearly any loadout. Certainly any AA comparable AA loadout will let the Viper outaccelerate and outclimb the Hornet. And not only is the F-16 naturally more fuel efficient, its lower drag allows you to use mil power in situations where the Hornet would need AB to keep up.

Again I would rather have the center tank then the wing tanks. Once you drop them, theyre gone. I don't need to drop the center tank for WVR. All that extra performance does you zip if you don't have enough gas. And in dogfights where your trying to outrate your opponent. Like how your supposed to do it in the viper your in burner the whole time and that low drag fuel efficiency doesn't mean much. In the hornet I have the option of JUST the center tank or three tanks and preserving the center one. In the Viper if you want to do BVR right you gotta have the wing ones and only the wing ones period, so after the merge your down to internal.

 

on paper what your saying is true, but in reality always trying to exploit your speed and acceleration advantage makes you stay in burner a lot. The hornet isn't a speed demon and I don't try too make it one. You have enough performance to get weapons out and survive till the merge where the balance usually switches to your side. 

 

There's a lot more too air combat then just the performance of the jet, the individual inside makes a much bigger difference.


Edited by Wizard_03
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54 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

Again I would rather have the center tank then the wing tanks. Once you drop them, theyre gone. I don't need to drop the center tank for WVR. All that extra performance does you zip if you don't have enough gas. And in dogfights where your trying to outrate your opponent. Like how your supposed to do it in the viper your in burner the whole time and that low drag fuel efficiency doesn't mean much. In the hornet I have the option of JUST the center tank or three tanks and preserving the center one. In the Viper if you want to do BVR right you gotta have the wing ones and only the wing ones period, so after the merge your down to internal.

I agree on tank preference, the center tank is my default load out for the F-16 if I'm going air to air. It's the most efficient fuel tank and the F-16's efficiency means it doesn't need any more external fuel to go a long distance. I don't know why you think the wing tanks are needed for BVR. It's certainly not a matter of fuel efficiency. If you want the jammer you'll take them (although in DCS the F-16 can mount the jammer on the wing, I've never seen this on the real aircraft) but I don't consider the jammer an absolute necessity.

image.png

Before you get to the dogfight, there is BVR and there is plenty of opportunity there for the F-16 pilot to modulate the throttle. Use of lower AB stages or climbing to store energy can make a vast difference in fuel use. The F-16 will not reach peak performance if the engine isn't maxxed, but it's still considerably faster than many other aircraft. Alternatively you can use max power when on the offensive and then throttle down on the defensive by trading speed for altitude. Altitude is huge because the higher you go the less fuel you burn and because air gets thinner with height, high performance aircraft are better suited to take advantage of altitude.

I've actually performed some simple testing to see which plane burns more gas in a BVR fight. If the Hornet tries to keep up with the F-16, it will use more fuel because it will be in AB longer. The Hornet doesn't have to do this of course, but then its missiles will be at a disadvantage.

54 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

 

on paper what your saying is true, but in reality always trying to exploit your speed and acceleration advantage makes you stay in burner a lot. The hornet isn't a speed demon and I don't try too make it one. You have enough performance to get weapons out and survive till the merge where the balance usually switches to your side. 

 

There's a lot more too air combat then just the performance of the jet, the individual inside makes a much bigger difference.

 

I don't consider the F-16 superior just because it's faster. Like you said there is more than performance that makes a BVR fighter. The F-16 gives you 90% of the Hornet's avionics with 130% the performance. It's the total package that counts. The F-18 provides you with more information and it has a better radar, but it's not orders of magnitude better in either case. The end result is that within the detection capabilities of both planes the F-16 can take up an advantageous BVR position faster than the Hornet can. Once it's in that position it can then dictate the fight because it has the performance to decide the terms of engagement.

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On 3/11/2022 at 9:11 AM, TAW_Blaze said:

 

Vipers being generally successful in public servers like GS is hardly an indicator of which is the better plane....

"Yeah, plane A almost always beats plane B but that doesn't make plane A better."

Hmmm?

12 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

Like how your supposed to do it in the viper your in burner the whole time and that low drag fuel efficiency doesn't mean much

On the tank thing, I always bring only the centerline tank when doing A2A in the Viper. I don't know why you're so fixated on having to take the wing tanks.

Regarding the relative BFM performance of Viper vs. Hornet, in fights that start BVR, Hornets have never survived long enough to get close to my Viper to find out who's better at BFM.


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18 hours ago, Hobel said:

Such things are nice, but in the RWR of the F18, unfortunately, the distances of the approaching missiles are not displayed.

In the F16 RWR you can read or guess all this.


In the F16 RWR you can
Distance of the missile
speed of the missile
and detect dead missiles


and this is already an enormous advantage compared to the F18 RWR.

Where the hack you can see all these data on RWR of missiles?? As far as I know Block50 does not include MWS (Missile Warning System). So RWR will not show you any info about missiles shot on your. Or am I missing something here?

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4 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Where the hack you can see all these data on RWR of missiles?? As far as I know Block50 does not include MWS (Missile Warning System). So RWR will not show you any info about missiles shot on your. Or am I missing something here?

Active radar guided missiles will show up on your RWR. As the missile gets closer to you it will move closer to the center of the RWR. Using this and the bearing rate of the missile you can determine its state.

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7 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

Active radar guided missiles will show up on your RWR. As the missile gets closer to you it will move closer to the center of the RWR. Using this and the bearing rate of the missile you can determine its state.

Indeed, just tested it. There is a M in rectangle. Thx, didnt know that or seen it before indeed.

But mark M coming closer to the center of RWR it doesn`t mean that the missile it self is coming closer to your aircraft, just that it has higher pripority then anything else. 

But at least you know from which side is coming. Thats very handy indeed.


Edited by skywalker22
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5 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

Active radar guided missiles will show up on your RWR. As the missile gets closer to you it will move closer to the center of the RWR. Using this and the bearing rate of the missile you can determine its state.

I doubled check this with someone who has some idea about the RWR and F16 RWR is not able to show if missile gets closer or not. Coming to center only shows that threat is high priority threat (evaluated by the system) which is same what f18 RWR able to do

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3 hours ago, Devastator said:

I doubled check this with someone who has some idea about the RWR and F16 RWR is not able to show if missile gets closer or not. Coming to center only shows that threat is high priority threat (evaluated by the system) which is same what f18 RWR able to do

I get what you mean and you're partly right. The distance of an emitter from the center of the RWR indicates threat level rather than a specific range. This threat level however is based on signal strength and is adjusted per emitter to roughly correlate to the lethal range a specific threat. The goal is for two emitters that are displayed at the same range on the RWR to be equally lethal to you based on their individual signal strength and the distance derived from said strength. So as an example, say that an F-4 and an SA-10 shows up at the same distance from the center of the RWR, the F-4 might be 10nm away while the SA-10 might be 40nm away.

However, you can tell the relative distance of contacts of the same type. So an F-4 might be along the edge of the RWR and gradually move closer to the center, then you know its range is decreasing. Or two different F-4s at different distances will tell you who's physically closer. So that way you can see a missile get closer as its signal strength increases and it moves closer to the center of the RWR.

Lastly, I don't know diddly squat about which type of RWR the F/A-18C uses or how it works, but from what I've heard from the virtual hornet pilots in DCS the main difference is that the F-18's RWR shows threat level, or "distance", in a few discrete steps while the F-16 shows threat level with increased granularity.

-Col. Russ Everts opinion on surface-to-air missiles: "It makes you feel a little better if it's coming for one of your buddies. However, if it's coming for you, it doesn't make you feel too good, but it does rearrange your priorities."

 

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On the original topic: the way I see it, the Hornet is just a light attack aircraft with self-escort ability. The "equally at home in A/A and A/G" is just marketing speech.
In DCS there is a dramatic kinematic difference, which translates to the 'fun factor' being firmly in the Falcon's hands.

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The F-16 is considered better in AA because of its acceleration. It can get into an advantageous position to fire on a target much faster than the Hornet. The AIM-7 doesn't matter, the AMRAAM is better at everything, and while the F-18 can carry more missiles, the 6 MRM's on the F-16 are enough and they don't come with nearly as big a drag penalty.
The Hornet has slightly more radar range, but not enough to give it a huge advantage. Keep in mind the F-18 is still capable at AA, it's not helpless, it's just that is has a major weakness in its lack of speed. You can actually get around this by using only the low drag missile stations, but then you only get 2 BVR missiles.
It shouldn't be like this either, outside of acceleration a bit, the Hornet should have every advantage. It reall sucks in DCS right now, even just the bugs.

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He is telling you that Hornet is better at SA, not that a Viper can't locate his target. Viper's radar is more than enough to locate way before you enter on Amraams range.

Internal jammer it's a plus but you have to take in mind that the internal jammer uses the same radar antenna so if you are jamming you can't use your radar
No, the range Mac Raero of a 120 is some 60nm, the radar should be around 30nm.

The Hornet ASPJ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RADAR, where did this myth come from? Shouldn't be silenced either.

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You really don't know how to BVR in a Viper don't you? Jammer pod goes on the center station. Center station is not for weapons, period. You don't need a third external fuel tank for BVR, center tank will just make your jet more draggy and 2 tanks is far more than enough fuel unless you are too dumb to go full burner at all time in low altitude. Flying low is not how a Viper should fight anyway. Regarding drag, it's negligible. With the jammer pod Viper is still fast, and much faster than Hornet. 
Another thing notice, just go look at the scoreboard in the PvP severs. Vipers are always on top. Hornets? Not so much. 
Hornet SA is leaps and bounds better, most things are just broken in DCS unfortunately. It would be like comparing a flip phone to a modern smartphone.

Let me say this, there is a larger gap from Hornet to Viper than there is from Hornet to F-35.

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A third tank on the F-16 is pretty superfluous. It's extremely fuel efficient, more so than the F-18 for sure. The Hornet can only match the F-16's range in a heavy AG situation, and the current F-16 flight model may be handicapping the plane right now since sometimes a single fuel tank provides as much range as two tanks due in part to the increased drag from AoA.
The lack of internal jammer on the F-16 is an issue, but the performance gap between the two planes is so large that the F-16 holds an edge with nearly any loadout. Certainly any AA comparable AA loadout will let the Viper outaccelerate and outclimb the Hornet. And not only is the F-16 naturally more fuel efficient, its lower drag allows you to use mil power in situations where the Hornet would need AB to keep up.
This is just not true, with any kind of similar A/A the 16 ways lags behind, it is a pig. It is barely more efficient clean, but In afterburner the Hornet is litterly twice as efficient.

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26 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

No, the range Mac Raero of a 120 is some 60nm, the radar should be around 30nm.

The Hornet ASPJ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RADAR, where did this myth come from? Shouldn't be silenced either.

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Tell me how many hits have you done launching the 120 at 60nm, please, enemys that comes to you directly and dont even make a defensive move is not a valid example

I don´t know your Viper radar but mine can lock from 50nm without much problem.

Maybe the jammer uses the same antenna, maybe not, but when you start to jam to break the lock your radar is silenced, i don´t if this has change on last´s updates but at least that was at first

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1 hour ago, Hulkbust44 said:

It shouldn't be like this either, outside of acceleration a bit, the Hornet should have every advantage. It reall sucks in DCS right now, even just the bugs.

No, the range Mac Raero of a 120 is some 60nm, the radar should be around 30nm.
 

In general the F-18 has advantages outside of performance yes, but only slightly. It may be missing features compared to the real jet, but so is the F-16.

As far as a radar goes, this isn't any kind of hard proof, but this video suggests a lot more than 30 mile range:

https://youtu.be/Aq5HXTGUHGI?t=300

1 hour ago, Hulkbust44 said:

This is just not true, with any kind of similar A/A the 16 ways lags behind, it is a pig. It is barely more efficient clean, but In afterburner the Hornet is litterly twice as efficient.

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The Hornet is known for being short legged. In DCS it's certainly less efficient than the F-16. I even posted range numbers. The F-16's single engine is simply more efficient and the F-16 itself less draggy.

image.png

 

Fuel amount tracked over 500 miles, AA load with 2 tanks, at FPAS optimum for Hornet, with F-16 optimum being a best guess. Orange is the F-18 which clearly burns the most fuel. Blue is Viper without ECM, green with ECM.

 

The Hornet is slightly more efficient in AB fuel burn, but far far less efficient in acceleration. The F-16 can use AB and then coast in mil power. The F-18 can't unless it wants to be subsonic.


Edited by Exorcet
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Maybe the jammer uses the same antenna, maybe not, but when you start to jam to break the lock your radar is silenced, i don´t if this has change on last´s updates but at least that was at first


It's not a matter of debate, the Hornet's ASPJ does not use the radar to jam and I don't know how this rumor started.

The radar shouldn't be silenced either, it's just a matter of how it's implemented in DCS. IRL, the pilot can specify Radar or Jammer priority and the choice will determine which of the two will be forced to use sub-optimal frequency channels in the case of interference, that's all there is to it. The fact that DCS models it a certain way does not mean that it's correct.

Although I haven't read up on the Viper's ECM, it should work similarly, with Pos 1 prioritizing the radar and Pos 2 prioritizing the jammer. The two options merely control which device is prioritized for optimal operation, if there is interference, but Pos 2 shouldn't straight up silence the radar, for example, just limit the number of channels it can use. But we don't have channels in DCS. A better implementation would be to have Pos 1 have 100% radar + 50% ECM and Pos 2 be 50% radar + 100% ECM. But then, in DCS, ECM is a binary attribute. The same should apply to the Hornet.
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13 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Hornet SA is leaps and bounds better, most things are just broken in DCS unfortunately. It would be like comparing a flip phone to a modern smartphone.

Let me say this, there is a larger gap from Hornet to Viper than there is from Hornet to F-35.

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That's your opinion. Not true at all. 

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I like loading the Viper with CBU97 and CCRP Bomb a convoy

 

I like flinging 20 SFW bomblets in the morning

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[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

LUCKY:pilotfly::joystick:

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