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SA-5 Square Pair Target Acquisition Radar Range


cailean_556

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I'm not sure if it has always been this way and I've just never noticed until now, or whether this is new, however I've noticed the 'Square Pair' target acquisition radar for the SA-5 may have an incorrect max detection range.

In the Mission Editor, it has a range of ~215 nautical miles, which equates to about 398km.

According to 5N62V - RadartutorialSA-5 (Gammon) / S-200 (militaryfactory.com) and S-200 SA-5 GAMMON (globalsecurity.org) (and Wikipedia) the Square Pair (depending on version) has a range of between 270 and 300km. Currently, it has a detection range that exceeds that of the P-35 Barlock radars (~320-392km, depending on version).

Is this intentional, based on non-public data, or is this an error regarding the unit in DCS itself? Either way, just making a note of it.

EDIT: Upon further investigation, I've also noticed (using the same sources) that the SA-5 missile (due to the booster burn-time, etc.) has a minimum range of 60km, whereas in DCS the min range ring indicates ~7km.

DCS_SquarePair Range_ME.jpg


Edited by cailean_556
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Yeah, looks like it has the incorrect range, I've also seen upper limits on the 5N62V FCR topping out at 300 km, this makes sense owing to the fact that the V-880/5V28 missile has a maximum engagement distance of 240 km.

I haven't seen anything about the minimum range though, from what I've seen the control surfaces enable < 1 second into missile flight, but not sure what the minimum range actually is (and the boosters certainly separate long before 60 km).


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Yeah, looks like it has the incorrect range, I've also seen upper limits on the 5N62V FCR topping out at 300 km, this makes sense owing to the fact that the V-880/5V28 missile has a maximum engagement distance of 240 km.

I haven't seen anything about the minimum range though, from what I've seen the control surfaces enable < 1 second into missile flight, but not sure what the minimum range actually is (and the boosters certainly separate long before 60 km).

 

If you follow the links for the SA-5 system itself within the GlobalSecurity.org link for the radar (S-200 SA-5 GAMMON (globalsecurity.org)) it discusses minimum engagement range, as does S-200 SA-5 GAMMON - Russia / Soviet Nuclear Forces (fas.org). However it could also be dependent on the variant.

That being said, this site (SA-5 Gammon S-200 Angara ground to air missile system data | Russia Russian missile system vehicle UK | Russia Russian army military equipment vehicles UK (armyrecognition.com)) contradicts the other two and quotes a minimum range of 7km but doesn't quote sources for that information. 60km does sound like a stupidly long distance, and it'd be hard to get confused between 7 and 60. Perhaps the min range for the missile is correct after all and globalsecurity.org and fas.org are wrong.

However the Square Pair, on the other hand, there's definitely something up with that.


Edited by cailean_556
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49 minutes ago, cailean_556 said:

If you follow the links for the SA-5 system itself within the GlobalSecurity.org link for the radar (S-200 SA-5 GAMMON (globalsecurity.org)) it discusses minimum engagement range, as does S-200 SA-5 GAMMON - Russia / Soviet Nuclear Forces (fas.org). However it could also be dependent on the variant.

That being said, this site (SA-5 Gammon S-200 Angara ground to air missile system data | Russia Russian missile system vehicle UK | Russia Russian army military equipment vehicles UK (armyrecognition.com)) contradicts the other two and quotes a minimum range of 7km but doesn't quote sources for that information. 60km does sound like a stupidly long distance, and it'd be hard to get confused between 7 and 60. Perhaps the min range for the missile is correct after all and globalsecurity.org and fas.org are wrong.

However the Square Pair, on the other hand, there's definitely something up with that.

Ah okay, must've missed those.

The 60 km figure is weird though, the booster stages definitely jettison long before 60 km (they only burn for a few seconds).

The missile is also LOBL with the target being illuminated from launch too, so it isn't the case of guidance only being provided after a certain distance. The missile is also SARH and so doesn't need to fly into the path of an uplink antenna to receive guidance commands (the missile does however have a tracking beacon and provides telemetry, the antenna on the 5N62V is primarily a downlink antenna, but can provide uplink to enable the fuse, trigger the warhead (likely in nuclear armed missiles) and trigger self-destruct.

If you look at this diagram from ausairpower, the engagement envelope begins at 17 km, which sounds much reasonable for booster jettison, the diagram is for the S-200VE which is simply the export designation of the V.

 

Back to the 5N62V though:

Looking at its .lua file, it's maximum and instrumented range is defined as 400 km larger.

I have found a source to back this up (though itself in uncited), stating that the monochromatic mode of the RADAR (pure unmodulated CW), which I understand to be the primary mode, has a range of 220 nmi or around 400 km.

Documentation provided in free SAM simulator, state a maximum instrumented range of 500 km.


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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8 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Ah okay, must've missed those.

The 60 km figure is weird though, the booster stages definitely jettison long before 60 km (they only burn for a few seconds).

The missile is also LOBL with the target being illuminated from launch too, so it isn't the case of guidance only being provided after a certain distance. The missile is also SARH and so doesn't need to fly into the path of an uplink antenna to receive guidance commands (the missile does however have a tracking beacon and provides telemetry, the antenna on the 5N62V is primarily a downlink antenna, but can provide uplink to enable the fuse, trigger the warhead (likely in nuclear armed missiles) and trigger self-destruct.

If you look at this diagram from ausairpower, the engagement envelope begins at 17 km, which sounds much reasonable for booster jettison, the diagram is for the S-200VE which is simply the export designation of the V.

 

Back to the 5N62V though:

Looking at its .lua file, it's maximum and instrumented range is defined as 400 km larger.

I have found a source to back this up (though itself in uncited), stating that the monochromatic mode of the RADAR (pure unmodulated CW), which I understand to be the primary mode, has a range of 220 nmi or around 400 km.

Documentation provided in free SAM simulator, state a maximum instrumented range of 500 km.

 

Things like this is why I have trust issues when people say things like "Do your own research"... Just who is right, and who is wrong? The one? Or the many?

Multiple sources quote a particular number, however one source (a source I consider - and not just because I'm Australian - to be a typically reliable, in fact I'm surprised this site didn't show up during my original search for info) has information that is contrary to that. By the same token, I would also consider the Federation of American Scientists (fas.org) to be also typically reliable - so who's right? When multiple sources say one thing, and another says something completely different?

I'm sure ED has the smoking gun on the matter - I just want to know if the system in DCS is accurate.

If this is accurate, the only thing remaining (that is triggering my obsessive-compulsive tendencies about this) is the fact that the tracking/fire control radar has a supremely longer range than the search radar it is supposed to be paired with...

If that is indeed the case, it's like we need a longer-range search radar to pair with the SA-5: like the P-14 'Tall King' or the P-35 "Bar Lock' search radars (which look very similar to the airfield radar installations on the Caucasus map) for the SA-5 - so it can be cued onto target more reliably.


Edited by cailean_556
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3 hours ago, cailean_556 said:

Things like this is why I have trust issues when people say things like "Do your own research"... Just who is right, and who is wrong? The one? Or the many?

Multiple sources quote a particular number, however one source (a source I consider - and not just because I'm Australian - to be a typically reliable, in fact I'm surprised this site didn't show up during my original search for info) has information that is contrary to that. By the same token, I would also consider the Federation of American Scientists (fas.org) to be also typically reliable - so who's right? When multiple sources say one thing, and another says something completely different?

Yeah, it's certainly an issue, and yes, I would trust sources like global security, fas and ausairpower on these matters. Though sometimes finding original sources is the best option.

It's also difficult to know if they mean the maximum effective range range in certain modes (they are different, but this will also depend on RCS), or instrumented range.

3 hours ago, cailean_556 said:

I'm sure ED has the smoking gun on the matter - I just want to know if the system in DCS is accurate.

By the looks of it, probably.

DCS' RADARs by-and-large are way to simplistic to model the different modes.

3 hours ago, cailean_556 said:

If this is accurate, the only thing remaining (that is triggering my obsessive-compulsive tendencies about this) is the fact that the tracking/fire control radar has a supremely longer range than the search radar it is supposed to be paired with...

Yep, and the missile too.

The Tin Shield is absolutely not associated with any SA-5 that I've found, and certainly not the Syrian S-200VE systems ED supposedly modelled (easily confirmed by satellite imagery).

I reported it as an issue here, requested the correct RADARs here, and discussion and satellite imagery of Syrian S-200 sites can be found here.

3 hours ago, cailean_556 said:

If that is indeed the case, it's like we need a longer-range search radar to pair with the SA-5: like the P-14 'Tall King' or the P-35 "Bar Lock' search radars (which look very similar to the airfield radar installations on the Caucasus map) for the SA-5 - so it can be cued onto target more reliably.

Absolutely, and yes the P-37 is what's present on the Caucasus map, it's just non-functional eye-candy. Alongside its associated height finding RADAR, the PRV-11.

It's a shame because these RADARs are ubiquitous and are pretty well modelled (much better than the 1L13-3 or the 55G6).

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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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