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OpenXR Guide - Deprecated - This time for real (▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿)


nikoel

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On 3/30/2022 at 1:14 AM, Pikey said:


Cons: FPS is lower, it struggles worse at low FPS than SteamVR at the same FPS, can't use fpsVR, its a mod and resets with updates, appears to be more CPU bound and performed badly in MP, some of the settings in the Dev tools dont seem to work well or at all

 

!!! edit: steamVR figures have switched CPU/GPU values, the coorect ones, see few posts below!!!

 

I can confirm CPU significant frametime impact in OpenXR, unfortunatelly negative

I did a short test, for both openXR and steamVR, motion reprojection OFF and forced ON.
Instant action,  Cau/FA18/Ready on the ramp, looking strait ahead - it is my usual simple test,

frametimes measured:

openXR MR off:     CPU 14,8ms     GPU 10.8ms
openXR MR on:      CPU 15,0ms     GPU 13.6ms

steamVR MR off: CPU 9.6ms     GPU 13.9ms
steamVR MR on:    CPU 9.7ms    GPU 14.4ms

measurements are repeatable with deviation +/- 0.3ms,

SS in both steamVR and OpenXR set to 60% (my usual steamVR value)

well, from my point of view, the real benefit of all that openXR fidling is the ability to run VR reprojection locked on 30Hz
(I have Reverb G2 and fly MR on only) but openXR is so CPU hungry and lack of VRNeckSafer...

the choice is, as always, based on personal preferences.. 🙂


Edited by wju
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1 hour ago, A.F. said:

none of this has helped...

better said Toolkit starts but now I get this error message when I start DCS and my PC freezes

 

Ok, I give up in a frustrated way!

I have to be a computer nerd to get this thing to work... at least in my case!

Too bad!

Screenshot (4).png

 

I had the same error on my system. Tried every suggested solution. What I found that fixed it for me: I had applied the recent released cumulative update KB5011563. After I rolled Windows 11 back to before I applied the KB5011563 update, all works again.

Cheers

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On 3/30/2022 at 2:37 AM, nikoel said:

I respect a man who can say this -

If you let me give you a little bit of advice in regards to the DCS settings that may enable you to get the FPS you want. I understand you were using the F14 (rather than the soul and fps sucking Apache) 

I don't know what settings you're running but here is what I would do

Set AA = 0/off | MSAA=x2 | Clouds to Standard | Shadows to low | Terrain shadows to either flat or off | water to low (or medium) | vis to high/medium | Turn the grass/vegetation slider to zero| | The same for chimney smoke | All three tick boxes on the bottom left unticked | Then reduce the resolution you had in OpenXR by say 10%

I think you will be pleasantly surprised 

Thank you for your suggestions I tried them. I feel like changing my Facebook status with OpenXR to "it's complicated" 🙂
The settings at 80% you provided did get MP into the 40's and workable, so that's a thing.  Frames are enough, even tested on Blue Flag Syria with an Apache and its high 30's (but not into 20's) which with OpenXR is better behaved than SteamVR by a large amount. So this is a bottom line, with the tracking enhancement I'm keeping it with the following issues.
- Water to medium is a hard sell - it makes sense to look at Baileys startup shortcut maker to have that launch on demand. It's a big loss for me for when I look at it.
- Cockpit Global illumination I really miss and it also causes some oddities in the game - I've had bright lights - that's not VR's fault, but its a less tested config and I'm going to be busy reporting some horrid lighting bugs for a while, including "Bright white ocean", and "Cockpit under a spotlight"
- There's a small distant shimmer, especially with complex clouds at Medium visibility. I need more pixels on screen to resolve that, it's where this is. I'm using NIS and unlocked frames.
- pixel detail is bang on minimum acceptable for cockpit reading, but I get high textures, so its give and take.
- Chimney and clutter - somewhat irrelevant once completely gone, so a good saving.
- AA is x16, I always thought that was fairly cheap, but ED's stock VR has it reduced to 4. Any lower and the runway end turns to mush

FPS comparisons for OpenVR and SteamVR are like trying to convert GBP to EUR. A little less OpenXR is equivalent to higher SteaVR FPS, but the tracking and comfort are light years apart. My brain has become so tolerant of all the jerky shaking and stuck moments in WMR ,that putting OpenXR on was like a bandage to the senses. It reminds me of Occulus Rift tracking actually. The Rift had this ability to handle low frames way better than the HPO Reverb with its stations. WithRrift you could have 10FPS but your head still tracked. I don't understand the technical detail, but the tracking for Reverb is dogsh1p  - you build up this tolerance to discomfort and just put up with it because you have to. 😞 Developing an immunity is no substitute for a gentle experience.

I might never reach the pixel density on this card to give me a good horizon for spotting, but it should make me less exhausted. I hope this project continues, if its me, I could trade some of that tracking for some CPU and the end result of more pixels, as it is, I think after a very long battle with settings I will keep OpenXR. Thanks.

 

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24 minutes ago, wju said:

I can confirm CPU significant frametime impact in OpenXR, unfortunatelly negative

I did a short test, for both openXR and steamVR, motion reprojection OFF and forced ON.
Instant action,  Cau/FA18/Ready on the ramp, looking strait ahead - it is my usual simple test,

frametimes measured:

openXR MR off:     CPU 14,8ms     GPU 10.8ms
openXR MR on:      CPU 15,0ms     GPU 13.6ms

steamVR MR off: CPU 9.6ms     GPU 13.9ms
steamVR MR on:    CPU 9.7ms    GPU 14.4ms

measurements are repeatable with deviation +/- 0.3ms,

SS in both steamVR and OpenXR set to 60% (my usual steamVR value)

well, from my point of view, the real benefit of all that openXR fidling is the ability to run VR reprojection locked on 30Hz
(I have Reverb G2 and fly MR on only) but openXR is so CPU hungry and lack of VRNeckSafer...

the choice is, as always, based on personal preferences.. 🙂

Curious that you've gained so much CPU, but you have plainly demonstrated that you're 3ms faster on GPU which to be fair is a pretty good uplift.  OXR MR off you've gone from 72 fps with SVR to 92fps with OXR, in DCS I would call that pretty significant.  I would hazard that something's either not configured right or has gotten sideways on the installtion - resetting the SVR openxr runtime from WMR to SVR and back again has been shown to improve some oddities in the system and for the 6 seconds it takes to do so might be worthwhile 🙂

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17 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Curious that you've gained so much CPU, but you have plainly demonstrated that you're 3ms faster on GPU which to be fair is a pretty good uplift.  OXR MR off you've gone from 72 fps with SVR to 92fps with OXR, in DCS I would call that pretty significant.  I would hazard that something's either not configured right or has gotten sideways on the installtion - resetting the SVR openxr runtime from WMR to SVR and back again has been shown to improve some oddities in the system and for the 6 seconds it takes to do so might be worthwhile 🙂

the 3ms GPU gain is present only in case MR off, which is not relevant for me.

When is MR on, GPU gain is still there, but far less, see figures.

well, it is all about my system (poor CPU maybe?), my settings, my preferences. Others can have it  vastly different.


Edited by wju

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3 minutes ago, Pikey said:

Thank you for your suggestions I tried them. I feel like changing my Facebook status with OpenXR to "it's complicated" 🙂
The settings at 80% you provided did get MP into the 40's and workable, so that's a thing.  Frames are enough, even tested on Blue Flag Syria with an Apache and its high 30's (but not into 20's) which with OpenXR is better behaved than SteamVR by a large amount. So this is a bottom line, with the tracking enhancement I'm keeping it with the following issues.
- Water to medium is a hard sell - it makes sense to look at Baileys startup shortcut maker to have that launch on demand. It's a big loss for me for when I look at it.
- Cockpit Global illumination I really miss and it also causes some oddities in the game - I've had bright lights - that's not VR's fault, but its a less tested config and I'm going to be busy reporting some horrid lighting bugs for a while, including "Bright white ocean", and "Cockpit under a spotlight"
- There's a small distant shimmer, especially with complex clouds at Medium visibility. I need more pixels on screen to resolve that, it's where this is. I'm using NIS and unlocked frames.
- pixel detail is bang on minimum acceptable for cockpit reading, but I get high textures, so its give and take.
- Chimney and clutter - somewhat irrelevant once completely gone, so a good saving.
- AA is x16, I always thought that was fairly cheap, but ED's stock VR has it reduced to 4. Any lower and the runway end turns to mush

FPS comparisons for OpenVR and SteamVR are like trying to convert GBP to EUR. A little less OpenXR is equivalent to higher SteaVR FPS, but the tracking and comfort are light years apart. My brain has become so tolerant of all the jerky shaking and stuck moments in WMR ,that putting OpenXR on was like a bandage to the senses. It reminds me of Occulus Rift tracking actually. The Rift had this ability to handle low frames way better than the HPO Reverb with its stations. WithRrift you could have 10FPS but your head still tracked. I don't understand the technical detail, but the tracking for Reverb is dogsh1p  - you build up this tolerance to discomfort and just put up with it because you have to. 😞 Developing an immunity is no substitute for a gentle experience.

I might never reach the pixel density on this card to give me a good horizon for spotting, but it should make me less exhausted. I hope this project continues, if its me, I could trade some of that tracking for some CPU and the end result of more pixels, as it is, I think after a very long battle with settings I will keep OpenXR. Thanks.

 

 

I'm not sure on your GPU off hand but I've found that dropping resolution in OXR with no upscaling to be best bang for buck image clarity wise.  I run 75%, high settings* apart from visibility, water & clouds medium and it looks great but I'm still pulling 65+fps on Caucasus in the hog.  I can turn on MSAA to quell some shimmer where frametime allows but in all honesty to me OXR looks better at lower resolution than SVR.

* the bottom left corner options are disabled as is global cockpit illumination (that's something that I've never played with) and AF is 8x as a test.

2 minutes ago, wju said:

the 3ms GPU gain is present only in case MR off, which is not relevant for me.

When is MR on, GPU gain is still there, but far less, see figures.

well, it is all about my system (poor CPU maybe?), my settings, my preferences. Others can have it  vastly different.

 

Could be the CPU but I wouldn't have expected there should be that much in it.

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13 hours ago, Voolpy said:

Issue with water:

I have a Reverb G2 and my GCU is a 3070ti. I have installed openxr but having an issue with water. In the settings, at the low the water doesn't look good, and in the medium or high it disappears like on the picture.
Do you have any idea of the issue? solution?  In steam VR works well.

OpenComposite_DCS_20220330_91712.jpg

 

This is always related to shaders edit for me.

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31 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Could be the CPU but I wouldn't have expected there should be that much in it.

may I kindly ask You to perform your own measurement? or did you any already?

the best both MR on/off

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Will do, it will be later on tonight though 🙂

Off the top of my head my CPU normally sits around 9-11ms I think with OXR based on a simple mission.

edit: @wju did some back to back testing, I think my OXR MR is currently bugged as I've got jelly eels all over the place again and post gpu overhead is currently blowing it out of the water 😄

OC_ACC MR off
CPU 10.3ms GPU 15.5

OC_ACC MR on
CPU 10.9ms GPU 20.5
CPU 10.4ms GPU 15.2

SVR MR off
CPU 9.6ms GPU 15.5

SVR MR on
CPU 9.7ms GPU 15.3

Figures are nominal but +/- 0.5ms give or take, apart from the OXR MR which whilst still pulling 50fps is reprojecting down to 22hz bracket.

I don't use MR as it is and SVR to OXR performance is virtually identical without it, CPU is slightly higher but that's not an issue.  What you can't see from those numbers however is that SVR MR off was stuttery at >60fps when looking round the cockpit whilst at the same time being more blurry than OXR which was far smoother and much better clarity.

Once the OXR MR bug is fixed then I would say that performance is likely to be comparable across the board.

edit: sorted the GPU overhead issue, all the same frametimes now, SVR still looks like I have a guaze sheet over my head and it stutters around the cockpit.


Edited by edmuss

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There are performance readouts in both the OXR toolkit and OXR developer tools 🙂

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2 hours ago, wju said:

I can confirm CPU significant frametime impact in OpenXR, unfortunatelly negative

I did a short test, for both openXR and steamVR, motion reprojection OFF and forced ON.
Instant action,  Cau/FA18/Ready on the ramp, looking strait ahead - it is my usual simple test,

frametimes measured:

openXR MR off:     CPU 14,8ms     GPU 10.8ms
openXR MR on:      CPU 15,0ms     GPU 13.6ms

steamVR MR off: CPU 9.6ms     GPU 13.9ms
steamVR MR on:    CPU 9.7ms    GPU 14.4ms

measurements are repeatable with deviation +/- 0.3ms,

SS in both steamVR and OpenXR set to 60% (my usual steamVR value)

well, from my point of view, the real benefit of all that openXR fidling is the ability to run VR reprojection locked on 30Hz
(I have Reverb G2 and fly MR on only) but openXR is so CPU hungry and lack of VRNeckSafer...

the choice is, as always, based on personal preferences.. 🙂

culpa mea, sorry guys, I have switched CPU/GPU figures for steamVR, the correct result are as follows:

frametimes measured:

openXR MR off:      CPU 14,8ms     GPU 10.8ms
openXR MR on:      CPU 15,0ms     GPU 13.6ms

steamVR MR off:    CPU 13.9ms     GPU 9.6ms
steamVR MR on:    CPU 14.4ms     GPU 9.7ms 

steamVR measured by fpsVR, openXR values read via frame tining overlay

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14 minutes ago, edmuss said:

There are performance readouts in both the OXR toolkit and OXR developer tools 🙂

I thought they were onscreen only ... I will have a play 


Edited by speed-of-heat

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26 minutes ago, edmuss said:

There are performance readouts in both the OXR toolkit and OXR developer tools 🙂

Anyway to enlarge the OXR Tools overlay.

I'm having to close one eye, cross the other and look through my eyebrow to make it out? 🙂

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I have played with this quite extensively for the last couple of weeks, and for me personally whilst it is great to remove the SteamVR layer, the reprojection artefacts spoil it for me. I know people are harping on about not needing repro, and I get that school of thought, but the other school of thought and one which I subscribe to is, the G2 has a native refresh on 90Hz if I can't run 90fps then I need reprojection to enable a jitter free experience. I can maintain 45FPS pretty much everywhere (except in the system slayer which is DCS Liberation!). If I disable repro I can sit at around 50-70FPS, however even if the FPS stays at a constant 50FPS the movement of my head is not as smooth as with repro on and locked at 45. This is not dissimilar to people who play with VSYNC On (in the pre GSync or FreeSync days). The slight jitter when scanning the cockpit with repro off, just ruins it for me. And the "wobble" on objects with repro on (whilst slight) is substantially more pronounced than SteamVR. In regard to shimmer, I see zero difference in shimmer with OpenXR vs SteamVR, it's still there and noticeable. I still use the TAZ version of Kegetys MOD as this reduces the shimmers in cockpit via Albedo texture SS. I have to caveat all of this by saying I’ve performed no scientific measurement of performance increase as quite honestly 45FPS constant is good enough for me. The major benefit is the removal of the seizure inducing loading screen images 🙂 Now if we can get reptojection up to where SVR is then I would seriously consider using this full-time.


Edited by zildac
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21 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

I thought they were onscreen only ... I will have a play 

 

They are as far as I'm aware, I don't think there are any options for logging frametimes at the moment although it may be possible to implement by the devs.

In reality I don't think directly comparing SVR with OXR is the right way to go about this.  In most peoples experience 100% SVR >< 100% OXR as it's an image quality thing rather than outright performance.  Things like being able to reduce render resolution to improve performance whislt achieving an equal picture clarity.

As @Pikey has found, with time and dedication it can be made to work; I just don't think you can translate one to the other directly and what's workable for one isn't necessarily workable for others.

@zildac hopefully once the MR bugs have been straightened out then it should be equal to SVR MR except with the facility to drop down to the 30hz bracket.  I'm currently MR off at 60fps and it's running really well for me.

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Motion Reprojection seems to work ok, for me @zildac, set it to always on on OpenXR Tools for Developer and unlocked in in the in game OpenXR Toolkit in game menu

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6 minutes ago, Sr. said:

Anyway to enlarge the OXR Tools overlay.

I'm having to close one eye, cross the other and look through my eyebrow to make it out? 🙂

You have adjusted the menu offset haven't you?  Mine is about -120 to merge the two displays.  There is also a text size in one of the menus that makes it much larger if needed.

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Just now, speed-of-heat said:

Motion Reprojection seems to work ok, for me @zildac, set it to always on on OpenXR Tools for Developer and unlocked in in the in game OpenXR Toolkit in game menu

Yes, it works and I can lock at 45FPS, but the artefacts seem far worse (to my eyes at least).

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2 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

Motion Reprojection seems to work ok, for me @zildac, set it to always on on OpenXR Tools for Developer and unlocked in in the in game OpenXR Toolkit in game menu

It works pretty well for jets but rotor blades and shadows causes all sorts of odd stuff to happen.  A bug regarding it has been identified so it's just a waiting game now, I suspect that other MR artifacts may be smoothed out with the same fix 🙂


Edited by edmuss
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The game changer for me is the ability to down step to 30hz smoothly , so those edge conditions are smoothed out ... now if they would also up step to 60hz that would be awesome.

p.s. Marianas is still a mess for me

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2 minutes ago, edmuss said:

They are as far as I'm aware, I don't think there are any options for logging frametimes at the moment although it may be possible to implement by the devs.

In reality I don't think directly comparing SVR with OXR is the right way to go about this.  In most peoples experience 100% SVR >< 100% OXR as it's an image quality thing rather than outright performance.  Things like being able to reduce render resolution to improve performance whislt achieving an equal picture clarity.

As @Pikey has found, with time and dedication it can be made to work; I just don't think you can translate one to the other directly and what's workable for one isn't necessarily workable for others.

@zildac hopefully once the MR bugs have been straightened out then it should be equal to SVR MR except with the facility to drop down to the 30hz bracket.  I'm currently MR off at 60fps and it's running really well for me.

It happily drops from 45 - 30 and works great but as you say the artefacts are worse than SVR. If you sit in the cockpit for example and perform a slow left->right scan can you not notice the slight jitter present, i would describe it as akin to VSync off in 2D but obviously with no tearing? This is with repro on.

1 minute ago, speed-of-heat said:

The game changer for me is the ability to down step to 30hz smoothly , so those edge conditions are smoothed out ... now if they would also up step to 60hz that would be awesome.

p.s. Marianas is still a mess for me

Agreed, and I commented something similar when I first tried it...it is incredibly useful to be able to drop to 30!!

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After the update, I inadvertently went back to SteamVR, which gave me the chance to do an apples-to-apples comparison with the same graphics settings. With SteamVR: pegged at 45 fps with drops to 30-35 fps at low altitude with lots of ground units. In the same mission using this OpenXR mod, the indicated frame rate was 60 fps (I understand that it is really averaging the jumps between 90 and 45 fps) with drops to 45 fps at low altitude with lots of ground units (sometimes it did drop into the 30s). Not only did OpenXR run faster on average, but was far smoother no matter what the indicated fps. But for me, the biggest gain has been how fast I can start up DCS World and being able to quit DCS back to my WMR desktop without having to use a VR controller or peak out of my G2 headset.

ED needs to provide built-in support for this as it is a huge step forward for flying in VR with WMR based headsets.


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32 minutes ago, edmuss said:

You have adjusted the menu offset haven't you?  Mine is about -120 to merge the two displays.  There is also a text size in one of the menus that makes it much larger if needed.

Right, I can adjust the size and position of the darker grey overlay, just not smaller one that displays CPU/GPU frametimes, changes red to green in color.

Ryzen 7 5800X3D | 64GB DDR4 3600| MSI RTX 4080 16GB Ventus 3X OC  | Samsung 970 Evo 2TB NVME | HP Reverb G2 | DIY Head Tracker Cap | Logitech X-56 throttle | VKB NXT Premium |  Win 11

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

--Arthur C Clark

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Ah no, I think that one is hard coded in, it's not the easiest to read in the G2!

The detailed display mode of OXRTK displays the same information as the OXRDT coloured box 🙂

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Ryzen7 7800X3D / RTX3080ti / 64GB DDR5 4800 / Varjo Aero / Leap Motion / Kinect Headtracking
TM 28" Warthog Deltasim Hotas / DIY Pendular Rudders / DIY Cyclic Maglock Trimmer / DIY Abris / TM TX 599 evo wheel / TM T3PA pro / DIY 7+1+Sequential Shifter / DIY Handbrake / Cobra Clubman Seat
Shoehorned into a 43" x 43" cupboard.

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