OpenXR Guide - Deprecated - This time for real (▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿)

[Sr.]

38 minutes ago, FlyingMilk said:

Hi, Ive been reading these forums for about a month now trying to figure out how to get my G2 (with updated cable for AMD) to work good enough for me. My issue is I have good FPS 80-90 but frametimes are horrible, goes from 10-35. I cant even get the frametimes to not go over 20 when i play on total potato quality (render scale to 20%).

Ive followed the install guide, I can choose between OpenXR and SVR. Ive done multiple fresh install. I heard Winwing products can cause frametime to go mad, and Ive followed the guides there to remove their export (no effect). 

I have open composite, xrtools and toolkit. Tried all possible combinations, but the most stable I get is when I go into steam VR. It tanks my FPS and I can play at 50% but only with MS on or else the frametimes are above 20 and picture is stuttering like mad. Thats all I can do. OpenXR gives me more FPS, but frametimes are so bad. Tried FIS, NIS, everything. Been going at it for about a month and Im so close to selling the G2. 

 

Any tips, as the feeling in VR dosnt want me to go back to 2D

 

I run: 5800x - 6900XT - 32gb 3200mhz cl14 - 1TB gen3 m.2

DCS settings:

Try Terrain detail; low

Water detail; low/med

On the VR tab, make sure pixel density is no higher than 1.0

Vis range: medium

No MSAA

 

This is a good resource for other things to check/tweak.

 

Which driver you running on the 6900XT?

Edited August 19, 2022 by Sr.

[evanswillo]

Hi, 

The latest AMD drivers should be fine 22.8.1.

In the OPENXR Toolkit menu set the Overlay to advanced and lets see what numbers you CPU and GPU are reporting

[FlyingMilk]

49 minutes ago, Sr. said:

DCS settings:

Try Terrain detail; low

Water detail; low/med

On the VR tab, make sure pixel density is no higher than 1.0

Vis range: medium

No MSAA

 

This is a good resource for other things to check/tweak.

 

Which driver you running on the 6900XT?

 

I have all settings on low ingame, pixel density at 1, I've tried 3 different drivers for the GPU. Currently running the 22.8.1. Tried 22.5.1 even tried 21.6.1 as someone said that was a good one for VR. 

[FlyingMilk]

30 minutes ago, evanswillo said:

Hi, 

The latest AMD drivers should be fine 22.8.1.

In the OPENXR Toolkit menu set the Overlay to advanced and lets see what numbers you CPU and GPU are reporting

100% render scale, upscaling off

CPU Between 7k-10k GPU 13-18k 

fps 50-60 frametimes 10-30

100% render, upscaling NIS 120% 
CPU 7-10k GPU 11-14k

FPS 60-80 frametimes 10-30

80% render, upscaling 120%

CPU 7-10k, GPU 9-12k

FPS 80-90, frametimes goes over 5-30 

 

Dont get CPU Bound message other than in loading screen. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by FlyingMilk

[evanswillo]

Sorry,

Are you changing values in the OpenXR Tools for WMR Customised Render Scale.

I leave this value to 100% and only alter the OpenXR Toolkit settings.

Upscaling FSR

Size 80% (2528x2470)

Gives me in mission

FPS 45

app CPU 15003

app GPU 20865

 

 

[edmuss]

3 hours ago, FlyingMilk said:

Hi, Ive been reading these forums for about a month now trying to figure out how to get my G2 (with updated cable for AMD) to work good enough for me. My issue is I have good FPS 80-90 but frametimes are horrible, goes from 10-35. I cant even get the frametimes to not go over 20 when i play on total potato quality (render scale to 20%).

Can you confirm if you're running reprojection or not?

I'm a bit confused by your statements on frametimes, assuming you have reprojection off then 80-90 fps is 12.5-11ms.  Are you getting GPU spikes to 35ms?
20ms is 50fps, you want frametimes to be low to get fps high are you saying that your minimum frametimes are 20ms?

Using the openxr tools (desktop app) performance overlay read the appGPU and postGPU when the performance is bad.  For nominal reference appGPU is the time taken for opencomposite to render the frame and postGPU is the time taken for post processing (reprojection/filters/FFR etc.).

Given your hardware then the settings in DCS shouldn't make much difference (+/- 5-8ms or so at most I would guess) and you should be able to run atmostly high without much hassle.

[FlyingMilk]

1 hour ago, evanswillo said:

Sorry,

Are you changing values in the OpenXR Tools for WMR Customised Render Scale.

I leave this value to 100% and only alter the OpenXR Toolkit settings.

Upscaling FSR

Size 80% (2528x2470)

Gives me in mission

FPS 45

app CPU 15003

app GPU 20865

 

 

When i change the render scale now Ive done it in OXR Tools for WMR. Tried there and in the toolkit, same result. 

 

35 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Can you confirm if you're running reprojection or not?

I'm a bit confused by your statements on frametimes, assuming you have reprojection off then 80-90 fps is 12.5-11ms.  Are you getting GPU spikes to 35ms?
20ms is 50fps, you want frametimes to be low to get fps high are you saying that your minimum frametimes are 20ms?

Using the openxr tools (desktop app) performance overlay read the appGPU and postGPU when the performance is bad.  For nominal reference appGPU is the time taken for opencomposite to render the frame and postGPU is the time taken for post processing (reprojection/filters/FFR etc.).

Given your hardware then the settings in DCS shouldn't make much difference (+/- 5-8ms or so at most I would guess) and you should be able to run atmostly high without much hassle.

When Im not using SteamVR I dont use reprojection, as I cant understand how ppl live with the artifacts it creates. It looks so horrible for me. With SteamVR Im able to use it, as it dosnt create the same artifacts. Im reading the frametimes with the build in DCS FPS counter. Even when im at 90 fps it says my frametimes fluctuate between around 10 and up to 30ms and its a stuttery mess.

[edmuss]

I wouldn't try to use the in-game frametimes to tell you want the VR compositor is doing, use the wmr openxr one. Case in point, if you have 30ms then you're at 33 fps, I suspect that you're interpreting the wrong thing.

edit: typically you shouldn't be getting anywhere near 30ms if you're hitting 10ms. I think it's something other than your GPU and DCS graphics settings. Any RGB lighting on your machine or winwing hardware? Similarly have you disabled hotplug in the controls options? Is your ram definitely running at full xmp speed?

Edited August 19, 2022 by edmuss

[Sr.]

32 minutes ago, FlyingMilk said:

When i change the render scale now Ive done it in OXR Tools for WMR. Tried there and in the toolkit, same result. 

 

When Im not using SteamVR I dont use reprojection, as I cant understand how ppl live with the artifacts it creates. It looks so horrible for me. With SteamVR Im able to use it, as it dosnt create the same artifacts. Im reading the frametimes with the build in DCS FPS counter. Even when im at 90 fps it says my frametimes fluctuate between around 10 and up to 30ms and its a stuttery mess.

If you're using repro in OXR, make sure that "Anti-shake"  is set to 0%

29 minutes ago, edmuss said:

I wouldn't try to use the in-game frametimes to tell you want the VR compositor is doing, use the wmr openxr one. Case in point, if you have 30ms then you're at 33 fps, I suspect that you're interpreting the wrong thing.

edit: typically you shouldn't be getting anywhere near 30ms if you're hitting 10ms. I think it's something other than your GPU and DCS graphics settings. Any RGB lighting on your machine or winwing hardware? Similarly have you disabled hotplug in the controls options? Is your ram definitely running at full xmp speed?

 

Good call on the RGB garbage... another culprit is the Alienware command center app. I only have a AW monitor and if it's running, DCS/VR is a **** show.

35 minutes ago, FlyingMilk said:

When i change the render scale now Ive done it in OXR Tools for WMR. Tried there and in the toolkit, same result. 

 

When Im not using SteamVR I dont use reprojection, as I cant understand how ppl live with the artifacts it creates. It looks so horrible for me. With SteamVR Im able to use it, as it dosnt create the same artifacts. Im reading the frametimes with the build in DCS FPS counter. Even when im at 90 fps it says my frametimes fluctuate between around 10 and up to 30ms and its a stuttery mess.

If you haven't already, try running the G2 at 60Hz under the WMR settings page. Most hate it because of flicker. I'm one of the lucky few who don't "see" the flicker.

With that, I run no repro, and stay pegged at 60fps with pretty high DCS settings. Looks incredible on my end.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, FlyingMilk said:

100% render scale, upscaling off

CPU Between 7k-10k GPU 13-18k 

fps 50-60 frametimes 10-30

100% render, upscaling NIS 120% 
CPU 7-10k GPU 11-14k

FPS 60-80 frametimes 10-30

80% render, upscaling 120%

CPU 7-10k, GPU 9-12k

FPS 80-90, frametimes goes over 5-30 

 

Dont get CPU Bound message other than in loading screen. 

 

FWIW, upscaling results in some GPU overhead.  You can see that additional GPU frametime in the "GPU scl" on the OpenXR Toolkit advanced overlay.  In theory, upscaling can worsen performance if you upscale less than a minimum amount--the overhead could be more than frametime you gain in the reduced rendered resolution.

To put it in perspective, in FSR 1.0, AMD calls "quality" 67% and "ultra quality" 77%.  That seems to suggest above 77% you will get diminishing returns or even performance decrease.  FYI,  in Open XR Toolkit, setting a upscaling percentage over 100% reverses the ratio, so 120% = 83%, and 133% = 75%  So you'd need at least 130% to get to AMD's "ultra quality" setting, and 150% to get to "quality".

I don't have any experience with NIS, but given the reported similarities, I suspect the numbers work out about the same.

[edmuss]

13 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I don't have any experience with NIS, but given the reported similarities, I suspect the numbers work out about the same.

I believe that in openxr toolkit the scaling between the two works in the same manner but NIS has more aggressive sharpening over FSR.

[FlyingMilk]

2 hours ago, edmuss said:

I wouldn't try to use the in-game frametimes to tell you want the VR compositor is doing, use the wmr openxr one. Case in point, if you have 30ms then you're at 33 fps, I suspect that you're interpreting the wrong thing.

edit: typically you shouldn't be getting anywhere near 30ms if you're hitting 10ms. I think it's something other than your GPU and DCS graphics settings. Any RGB lighting on your machine or winwing hardware? Similarly have you disabled hotplug in the controls options? Is your ram definitely running at full xmp speed?

 

ah ok, I just see every time it goes over 20 I get a spike. When its under its fine. 
I dont have any bloatware, buildt pc myself, no RGB controller. AMD dosnt have XMP but using their version DOCP and its set to 3200mhz

 

 

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

FWIW, upscaling results in some GPU overhead.  You can see that additional GPU frametime in the "GPU scl" on the OpenXR Toolkit advanced overlay.  In theory, upscaling can worsen performance if you upscale less than a minimum amount--the overhead could be more than frametime you gain in the reduced rendered resolution.

To put it in perspective, in FSR 1.0, AMD calls "quality" 67% and "ultra quality" 77%.  That seems to suggest above 77% you will get diminishing returns or even performance decrease.  FYI,  in Open XR Toolkit, setting a upscaling percentage over 100% reverses the ratio, so 120% = 83%, and 133% = 75%  So you'd need at least 130% to get to AMD's "ultra quality" setting, and 150% to get to "quality".

I don't have any experience with NIS, but given the reported similarities, I suspect the numbers work out about the same.

Ive tried all kinds of scaling. from 20-300% with both NIS and FSR. Reason Ive used NIS most is it just basicly looks better to me. 

1 hour ago, Sr. said:

If you're using repro in OXR, make sure that "Anti-shake"  is set to 0%

Good call on the RGB garbage... another culprit is the Alienware command center app. I only have a AW monitor and if it's running, DCS/VR is a **** show.

If you haven't already, try running the G2 at 60Hz under the WMR settings page. Most hate it because of flicker. I'm one of the lucky few who don't "see" the flicker.

With that, I run no repro, and stay pegged at 60fps with pretty high DCS settings. Looks incredible on my end.

Anti shake is set to 0, never touched it, same with sharpness. 

No RGB program. I had winwing program installed, but its now uninstalled and Ive removed all exports in saved games folder for DCS as stated earlier. There is no more exports from simapp pro. 

I wish I could do 60hz but no chance, less than 5min and my eyes hurt and i start to get a headache.. 

 

I am at such a loss here :C

Edited August 19, 2022 by FlyingMilk

[edmuss]

5 minutes ago, FlyingMilk said:

I wish I could do 60hz but no chance, less than 5min and my eyes hurt and i start to get a headache.. 

Just a heads up, I've been a proponent of 60hz for ages, I'm fortunately that the flickering doesn't affect me.

However when I switched to the global openxr switcher (from the old manual install) the headset registered as a quest2 according to the DCS crosseyed calibration tool; I believe this is normal because of the open composite. As I had done before, I set the eyes symmetrical to right because that's what worked.

For a few weeks I was finding that I was getting super tired eyes at 60hz but not at 90hz; I put it down to being overly tired.

Out of curiosity I deleted the cross eyed config file and when the tool came up I left it as default and it's been perfect since. DCS recognised the headset calibration correctly and the displays were already spot on, setting them to symmetrical offset one eye just enough to cause issue at 60hz but not be noticeable at 90hz.

Might be worth a shot

I'll reiterate that if you give us some appCPU, appGPU, postCPU and postGPU numbers from the WMR openxr overlay then we might be able to offer more solutions.

[Sr.]

@edmuss

Noticed this trying to troubleshoot VR Necksafer app.

Is this normal now... seems like there used to be more lines listed here?

 

 

[edmuss]

I've had that in the past it's normally to do with when openxr tools gets updated it leaves behind some registry keys that are linked to 3rd party apps like necksafer or openkneeboard. I can't for the life of me remember what the fix is but I'll look into it

Edited August 19, 2022 by edmuss

[FlyingMilk]

2 hours ago, edmuss said:

Just a heads up, I've been a proponent of 60hz for ages, I'm fortunately that the flickering doesn't affect me.

However when I switched to the global openxr switcher (from the old manual install) the headset registered as a quest2 according to the DCS crosseyed calibration tool; I believe this is normal because of the open composite. As I had done before, I set the eyes symmetrical to right because that's what worked.

For a few weeks I was finding that I was getting super tired eyes at 60hz but not at 90hz; I put it down to being overly tired.

Out of curiosity I deleted the cross eyed config file and when the tool came up I left it as default and it's been perfect since. DCS recognised the headset calibration correctly and the displays were already spot on, setting them to symmetrical offset one eye just enough to cause issue at 60hz but not be noticeable at 90hz.

Might be worth a shot

I'll reiterate that if you give us some appCPU, appGPU, postCPU and postGPU numbers from the WMR openxr overlay then we might be able to offer more solutions.

I will see if I can get some numbers tomorrow. The lady of the house has been demanding some attention. I will see if I get the chance tomorrow. Thanks for the interrest in solving my problem!

[edmuss]

2 hours ago, FlyingMilk said:

I will see if I can get some numbers tomorrow. The lady of the house has been demanding some attention. I will see if I get the chance tomorrow. Thanks for the interrest in solving my problem!

Those damn ladies!!

[mbucchia]

3 hours ago, Sr. said:

@edmuss

Noticed this trying to troubleshoot VR Necksafer app.

Is this normal now... seems like there used to be more lines listed here?

 

 

 

Take a look at your registry at "HKLM\Software\Khronos\OpenXR\1\ApiLayers\Implicit". Make sure there is no stale (uninstalled) API layer referenced there. Also, it is important that all your API layers are installed somewhere in a system folder like "C:\Program Files". Otherwise you will get this error.

[Sr.]

2 hours ago, mbucchia said:

Take a look at your registry at "HKLM\Software\Khronos\OpenXR\1\ApiLayers\Implicit". Make sure there is no stale (uninstalled) API layer referenced there. Also, it is important that all your API layers are installed somewhere in a system folder like "C:\Program Files". Otherwise you will get this error.

Thanks! That got it. 

[FlyingMilk]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:12 AM, edmuss said:

Those damn ladies!!

She allso demanded whole yesterday for a market x) Testing now using overlay Ingame settings added with picture.

Testing ground, F-16 Caucasus fighter sweep. Motion Reprojection is allways OFF, shake 0% sharpnes 0% (Prior to testing im now using skyspaces empty room as my room in WMR.

res scale 100% NIS 90% FPS 45-70 (not smooth at all, didnt see the big stutterts I usually do whithin testing for about 5 min but its choppy and unplayable for me)
app CPU 10-12ms GPU 14-17ms
pre CPU 0ms GPU 0ms
post CPU 0.17-0.18ms GPU 0.55-1.06ms

Res scale 100% NIS 80% FPS 50-75 (its choppy, flickering on cloud edges. loosing enough quality that i could just use an oculus quest 2)
app CPU 10-14ms GPU 11-16ms
pre CPU 0 GPU 0
post CPU 0.15-0.17ms GPU 0.54-1.02ms

res 2206x2158 NIS OFF FPS 50-90 (its choppy, flickering on cloud edges. loosing enough quality that i could just use an oculus quest 2 )
app CPU 9-13ms GPU 9-13ms
pre CPU 0 GPU 0
post CPU 0.15-0.17ms GPU 0.29-0.79ms

[Sr.]

40 minutes ago, FlyingMilk said:

She allso demanded whole yesterday for a market x) Testing now using overlay Ingame settings added with picture.

Testing ground, F-16 Caucasus fighter sweep. Motion Reprojection is allways OFF, shake 0% sharpnes 0% (Prior to testing im now using skyspaces empty room as my room in WMR.

res scale 100% NIS 90% FPS 45-70 (not smooth at all, didnt see the big stutterts I usually do whithin testing for about 5 min but its choppy and unplayable for me)
app CPU 10-12ms GPU 14-17ms
pre CPU 0ms GPU 0ms
post CPU 0.17-0.18ms GPU 0.55-1.06ms

Res scale 100% NIS 80% FPS 50-75 (its choppy, flickering on cloud edges. loosing enough quality that i could just use an oculus quest 2)
app CPU 10-14ms GPU 11-16ms
pre CPU 0 GPU 0
post CPU 0.15-0.17ms GPU 0.54-1.02ms

res 2206x2158 NIS OFF FPS 50-90 (its choppy, flickering on cloud edges. loosing enough quality that i could just use an oculus quest 2 )
app CPU 9-13ms GPU 9-13ms
pre CPU 0 GPU 0
post CPU 0.15-0.17ms GPU 0.29-0.79ms

Only thing that jumps out immediately is MSAA.  Even at 60Hz (for me) any amount of MSAA causes stuttering. 

 

The flickering on cloud edges. Well... that's more a DCS shortcoming. Especially where clouds meet hill/mountain surfaces.

 

Also, you posted earlier "AMD doesn't have XMP but using their version DOCP and its set to 3200mhz"

Is this a limitation of your motherboard? I have AMD and currently running 3200 RAM with XMP profile to 3600. (Asrock MB)

Edited August 21, 2022 by Sr.

[FlyingMilk]

8 minutes ago, Sr. said:

Only thing that jumps out immediately is MSAA.  Even at 60Hz (for me) any amount of MSAA causes stuttering. 

 

The flickering on cloud edges. Well... that's more a DCS shortcoming. Especially where clouds meet hill/mountain surfaces.

 

Clouds look fine when im at res 100% and NIS OFF. upscaling and downscaling makes them look bad. with no MSAA I still have stutter problems with the bonus of jagged edges in cockpit

[Sr.]

Just now, FlyingMilk said:

Clouds look fine when im at res 100% and NIS OFF. upscaling and downscaling makes them look bad. with no MSAA I still have stutter problems with the bonus of jagged edges in cockpit

hmm

 

any cooling issues?

[FlyingMilk]

1 minute ago, Sr. said:

hmm

 

any cooling issues?

Nope, inside a tiny room with its own AC. Room chilled to about 17C (Its so cold in here)  GPU around 60-70C and CPU at around 50

[RED]

Hey there,

i had the error message with the mirrormode where you have to comment out two options in the ini. The problem is that I was actually using the mirror to record with OBS. How do I use the mirror instead?