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OpenXR Guide - Deprecated - This time for real (▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿)


nikoel

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Well well well.  First impressions:

  1. WHOA!
  2. Haven't done any benchmarking or anything but the amount of judder on the 3-9 line is dramatically reduced (I have motion smoothing off).   There's still judder but it looks like in the movies, more of a blurring than a stuttering.  I'll take it. 
  3. I get the feeling there is something fundamentally fubar about the WMR/SVR interface that render times and FPS isn't quite getting at.  I'm showing 50fps on the deck on the PG map (which is nothing to sneeze at) but the amount of stuttering is but a fraction of what I would have expected at that frame rate.  Likewise and maybe even more obvious when you do a snap roll.  Put it this way, at 50fps in OpenVR I'd be turning on motion reprojection as fast as my fingers could fly.  Really no need here.
  4. Which is good, because motion reprojection in OpenXR isn't any better than WMR's version imo (based on flying around in MSFS.  Which is a hot mess.)
  5. I don't miss ReShade, don't feel like I particularly need it here.  Maybe it's just placebo but it just kinda looks better.  I agree, shimmering is less. I've been spending a lot of time over Vegas benchmarking recently, and I must say, NTTR is looking good and it's just weirdly smooth.  
  6. I did exactly what Nikoel said and it worked on the FIRST TRY.  This is literally the only thing that's ever worked on the first try for me, in VR, ever.  Read the instructions, folks. 
  7. Dear Steam VR.  I think we should start seeing other people.  

Thanks for my shadows back, Nikoel.  Hate to sound like a wuss, but dangit.  I want shadows. 

 

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14 minutes ago, DeltaMike said:

Well well well.  First impressions:

  1. WHOA!
  2. Haven't done any benchmarking or anything but the amount of judder on the 3-9 line is dramatically reduced (I have motion smoothing off).   There's still judder but it looks like in the movies, more of a blurring than a stuttering.  I'll take it. 
  3. I get the feeling there is something fundamentally fubar about the WMR/SVR interface that render times and FPS isn't quite getting at.  I'm showing 50fps on the deck on the PG map (which is nothing to sneeze at) but the amount of stuttering is but a fraction of what I would have expected at that frame rate.  Likewise and maybe even more obvious when you do a snap roll.  Put it this way, at 50fps in OpenVR I'd be turning on motion reprojection as fast as my fingers could fly.  Really no need here.
  4. Which is good, because motion reprojection in OpenXR isn't any better than WMR's version imo (based on flying around in MSFS.  Which is a hot mess.)
  5. I don't miss ReShade, don't feel like I particularly need it here.  Maybe it's just placebo but it just kinda looks better.  I agree, shimmering is less. I've been spending a lot of time over Vegas benchmarking recently, and I must say, NTTR is looking good and it's just weirdly smooth.  
  6. I did exactly what Nikoel said and it worked on the FIRST TRY.  This is literally the only thing that's ever worked on the first try for me, in VR, ever.  Read the instructions, folks. 
  7. Dear Steam VR.  I think we should start seeing other people.  

Thanks for my shadows back, Nikoel.  Hate to sound like a wuss, but dangit.  I want shadows. 

 

Miiiiiiiiike!!!!

Sooooo good to have you mate! I have been waiting for your detailed analysis and thought you may have had a bad experience but didn't want to rain on the parade so to speak

I think it's called the 'Soap Opera' effect?

The future is bright for this, we've only had DCS support for a week 😄


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12 minutes ago, DeltaMike said:

Well well well.  First impressions:

  1. WHOA!
  2. Haven't done any benchmarking or anything but the amount of judder on the 3-9 line is dramatically reduced (I have motion smoothing off).   There's still judder but it looks like in the movies, more of a blurring than a stuttering.  I'll take it. 
  3. I get the feeling there is something fundamentally fubar about the WMR/SVR interface that render times and FPS isn't quite getting at.  I'm showing 50fps on the deck on the PG map (which is nothing to sneeze at) but the amount of stuttering is but a fraction of what I would have expected at that frame rate.  Likewise and maybe even more obvious when you do a snap roll.  Put it this way, at 50fps in OpenVR I'd be turning on motion reprojection as fast as my fingers could fly.  Really no need here.
  4. Which is good, because motion reprojection in OpenXR isn't any better than WMR's version imo (based on flying around in MSFS.  Which is a hot mess.)
  5. I don't miss ReShade, don't feel like I particularly need it here.  Maybe it's just placebo but it just kinda looks better.  I agree, shimmering is less. I've been spending a lot of time over Vegas benchmarking recently, and I must say, NTTR is looking good and it's just weirdly smooth.  
  6. I did exactly what Nikoel said and it worked on the FIRST TRY.  This is literally the only thing that's ever worked on the first try for me, in VR, ever.  Read the instructions, folks. 
  7. Dear Steam VR.  I think we should start seeing other people.  

Thanks for my shadows back, Nikoel.  Hate to sound like a wuss, but dangit.  I want shadows. 

 

Your FPS are the same but you gained smoothness and stability because as shown in the benchmark a couple of posts ago, 1% lows and minimum FPS are much much better which means frame time is stable.

I'll explain better: it is better to draw a frame at a constant pace throughout a second, than rendering 40 during the first half of it and 10 during the second half of it. The output for both would be 50 FPS, but as they are distributed equally the smoothness in game will be much much better in the first case.


Edited by Al-Azraq
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I was just keeping a low profile while you and Edmuss did all the heavy lifting lol.  Yall did such a service for the DCS community, your efforts and generosity with your knowledge are greatly appreciated.

@Al-Azraq

I was wondering if it's more of a latency issue.  All we can measure is render time; once steam lets go of it, who knows what kind of shenanigans are going on.  Not sure how we could test that, except I would predict more motion sickness in SVR/WMR than with OpenXR

 

 

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It's a remarkable improvement in FPS on my setup (5090 3080 32g @ 3600) and the biggest improvement I've seen from any mod/app in last couple of years. Very happy.

It does have some odd reprojection side effects which are also present in MSFS, but I can live with that for now. I notice a little more input latency with OpenXR reprojection than OpenVR, and the angle of each eye's stereoscopic projection might be a little different as it doesn't feel quite as comfortable for me, but it's okay.

A big thanks to those involved in the development 😄 👍


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5 minutes ago, DeltaMike said:

I was just keeping a low profile while you and Edmuss did all the heavy lifting lol.  Yall did such a service for the DCS community, your efforts and generosity with your knowledge are greatly appreciated.

@Al-Azraq

I was wondering if it's more of a latency issue.  All we can measure is render time; once steam lets go of it, who knows what kind of shenanigans are going on.  Not sure how we could test that, except I would predict more motion sickness in SVR/WMR than with OpenXR

 

 

I think everything is related, input latency included. Lower FPS and frame times result in better latency which are everything for stability.

I would pay money to Digital Foundry to make a DCS analysis including a VR deep review.

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1 minute ago, DeltaMike said:

I was just keeping a low profile while you and Edmuss did all the heavy lifting lol.  Yall did such a service for the DCS community, your efforts and generosity with your knowledge are greatly appreciated.

@Al-Azraq

I was wondering if it's more of a latency issue.  All we can measure is render time; once steam lets go of it, who knows what kind of shenanigans are going on.  Not sure how we could test that, except I would predict more motion sickness in SVR/WMR than with OpenXR

 

 

We did nothing, except be willing guinea pigs 😄

With regards to why OXR feels smoother, I believe that it's with how it schedules the rendering of the image.  Very rough crappy explanation to best of my knowledge: -

SVR renders the frame and sends it to the headset in sync with the tracking data, it then generates synthetic frames if there is a shortfall to refresh rate.

OXR waits until it has up to date tracking data then renders the frame and sends it to the headset, it repeats that frame until the next one is ready.

SVR is racing to catch up with the refresh rate, OXR is saying, "meh! I'll wait" and catches the next bus on the next cycle.

I think.

Someone please correct me if I'm wildly wrong!

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^Yeah.  So latency is the total time from when an action occurs and the result shows up in your monitor.  I'm interested in that because it's a key variable in VR sickness. 

Any time something is standing around waiting, you're increasing latency. That's the point of VR optimization, it reduces the amount of time the GPU is standing there doing nothing. 

Kinda hard to get away from the idea that WMR4SVR is increasing latency.  You're putting something in between my GPU and my headset.  It almost has to, doesn't it? 

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  • nikoel changed the title to [Update 26/3 V0.6.1] OpenXR Quickstart Guide (For G2, G1 and other Headsets)
2 minutes ago, DeltaMike said:

^Yeah.  So latency is the total time from when an action occurs and the result shows up in your monitor.  I'm interested in that because it's a key variable in VR sickness. 

Any time something is standing around waiting, you're increasing latency. That's the point of VR optimization, it reduces the amount of time the GPU is standing there doing nothing. 

Kinda hard to get away from the idea that WMR4SVR is increasing latency.  You're putting something in between my GPU and my headset.  It almost has to, doesn't it? 

Now I'm curious if this would help issue. I'll try it out in a few.

 

 

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8 hours ago, edmuss said:

I'm not sure what you've done or even how you've done it, but I was under the impression that Oculus will talk to DCS with is own proprietary runtime which bypasses steamvr.  What this does is connect windows mixed reality to DCS in much the same way using openxr.


I would say, if you've got something that works and it's an improvement then that's great, however in not sure anyone will be able to help you with any issues.

dcs natively supports quest2, so it can be started either with steamVR or directly with Oculus. The edge distortion shows that this API really works, and what I feel is that frame generation is more stable

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Yeah I just broke the Toolkit out this morning to try in MSFS.  Cranked up the graphics and flew in real time / real weather.   Did a low pass over my house.  It was great.  Just had to imagine all those old gomers coming out, shaking their fist at the sky.  That rascal Delta up there in his F18 making noise.  Again.  

Flying MSFS and DCS back to back in OpenXR shows what a great job ED has done with VR optimization. Kind of a shame to hide that behind WMR4SVR just saying


Edited by DeltaMike

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8 hours ago, diamond26 said:

@zombiesyardI wonder how you did it. Did you use WMR with Oculus ? I had used opencomposite in the past to bypass SteamVR and use the then compatible Reshade, but WMR is not of use with Quest2 

I'm not using WMR, it won't run on my pc, there is a third party launcher for dcs where you can configure the API to start vr, just select steamVR API to run after installing this  opencomposite

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1 minute ago, zombiesyard said:

I'm not using WMR, it won't run on my pc, there is a third party launcher for dcs where you can configure the API to start vr, just select steamVR API to run after installing this  opencomposite

OK, this is what I did. So from the 3 requirements mentioned in OP first post only the first is required to make it work. Then Skatezilla’s app and api set to SteamVR 

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21 minutes ago, nikoel said:

New Change 26/3

OpenXR Toolkit now supports DCS without the hack!

Which hack? 🙂

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Copying the loose dll into the openxr toolkit installation folder I think 🙂

17 minutes ago, zombiesyard said:

dcs natively supports quest2, so it can be started either with steamVR or directly with Oculus. The edge distortion shows that this API really works, and what I feel is that frame generation is more stable

Aha so you're telling the quest to use steamvr, which then looks for the openvr_api.dll which then points it directly back at openxr.  I think that makes sense 🙂

So you see/perceive an improvement in frame stability over the native oculus runtime?

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11 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Copying the loose dll into the openxr toolkit installation folder I think 🙂

Aha so you're telling the quest to use steamvr, which then looks for the openvr_api.dll which then points it directly back at openxr.  I think that makes sense 🙂

So you see/perceive an improvement in frame stability over the native oculus runtime?

I’m on testing too to see the benefits. I just wanted to make sure I followed the right steps. I need to test one after the other previous configurations and OpenXR as the FPS count is not the perfect measure for this from what I read. Not sure yet I need to use the OpenXR toolkit

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2 hours ago, ColinM9991 said:

There is a contradiction in your first statement whereby you state you see no benefit but acknowledge the game loaded 45 seconds faster, in some cases. I'd consider that a benefit.

I strongly disagree that this is "damaging" to DCS performance. While I certainly have not gone to the lengths that several people have in this thread, I have noticed a significant improvement with stuttering, or lack thereof I should say.

From what I gather and what has been made clear is that this is not about instant performance boosts or being a magic bullet. This isn't a native implementation, so it's understandable the performance gains are negligible. However, it remains to be said that WMR on SteamVR has a plethora of issues which make DCS, and other SteamVR integrated games, unplayable. Issues on SteamVR for WMR such as stuttering, which continues until you quit the game, and while any one individual may not have such an experience the fact is many of us do. For me, using this extension with DCS has solved some problems by taking SteamVR out of the equation, and DCS runs now runs smooth.

 

 

Hi thanks for your response.
The loss of 20 FPS when you can dip lower than 45 is damaging to me since the screen is a juddery mess at the 22.5 fps mark which can be reached quite often in big MP servers. For everything not data related It will remain my opinion which is unaffected by your own.

VR with DCS is about headroom. MP requires it.  I spend most of my time sub 45 frames. The benchmark I used for the tests is offline so the headroom illustration is important. Offline players have less to concern themselves with as they tend to stick to optimised playing configurations.

We aren't talking about negligble performance gains, I am citing a recorded straight up loss of 33% against SteamVR. WHere I had 90, it was 60. That theme continued when frames dipped to 30 and I got 20. If this doesn't bother anyone then my post shouldnt be of interest and can be safely ignored.

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7 minutes ago, Pikey said:

Hi thanks for your response.
The loss of 20 FPS when you can dip lower than 45 is damaging to me since the screen is a juddery mess at the 22.5 fps mark which can be reached quite often in big MP servers. For everything not data related It will remain my opinion which is unaffected by your own.

VR with DCS is about headroom. MP requires it.  I spend most of my time sub 45 frames. The benchmark I used for the tests is offline so the headroom illustration is important. Offline players have less to concern themselves with as they tend to stick to optimised playing configurations.

We aren't talking about negligble performance gains, I am citing a recorded straight up loss of 33% against SteamVR. WHere I had 90, it was 60. That theme continued when frames dipped to 30 and I got 20. If this doesn't bother anyone then my post shouldnt be of interest and can be safely ignored.

The point is that many others report a positive performance gain, while some report a performance loss. I have neither gained nor lost any frames. It's very much a case of "YMMV". At the very least I believe an implementation of this is worth looking at to give users an option over which they'd prefer, I'd certainly opt to use OpenXR over SteamVR but that's just me. We're still in early days but this proves the concept.

Out of curiosity, what are your specs?

In my case, where I haven't had a drop in frames even on the Hoggit training server which usually becomes a sped-up slideshow on SteamVR,

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I haven't tweaked graphics settings between SteamVR or OpenXR.

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24 minutes ago, Pikey said:

We aren't talking about negligble performance gains, I am citing a recorded straight up loss of 33% against SteamVR. WHere I had 90, it was 60. That theme continued when frames dipped to 30 and I got 20. If this doesn't bother anyone then my post shouldnt be of interest and can be safely ignored.

I wonder where you're losing the frames?
I don't think there have been many reports of frame loss, especially not to the point of 30%.

With my 3070 I can quite happily sit >50fps on Caucasus with reprojection off, at worst it does occasionally drop <45 (at which point reprojection will have kicked it down to 30fps).  I have yet to see it drop below the 30fps reprojection bracket, even flying over the rooftops of Beruit.  The reprojection at 30fps is perfectly smooth.

My settings are high across the board (apart from the normal options never used for VR) with medium visiblity and clouds with no msaa.  I dare say that on the VR preset I would be >60 most of the time on Caucasus.


Edited by edmuss

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Every time I start DCS steamvr opens. How do i stop this? 

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2 minutes ago, timcat said:

Every time I start DCS steamvr opens. How do i stop this? 

hola, did you do this?

Make sure that WMRP -> Settings -> Startup & Desktop -> Automatic Start Up -> SteamVR automatic launch is unticked

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5 minutes ago, timcat said:

Yes sir, steamvr still starts.

Might try uninstalling WMRP under your Steam library, then get it from the Microsoft Store instead.

 

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/mixed-reality-portal/9ng1h8b3zc7m#activetab=pivot:overviewtab

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8 minutes ago, timcat said:

Yes sir, steamvr still starts.

Try replacing the package files again, preferably rename the old ones to create a backup.

Don't forget that the D3Dcompiler find needs to be in the bin folder as well

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