Force Trim

[dburne]

Man oh man I am struggling here. No problem after take off trimming for forward flight. But once I return to airfield and try to trim for a hover my Apache turns into totally a bucking bronco that I can not control. 

[GoodHope]

11 minutes ago, dburne said:

Man oh man I am struggling here. No problem after take off trimming for forward flight. But once I return to airfield and try to trim for a hover my Apache turns into totally a bucking bronco that I can not control. 

I'm having the same problem here.

[cfrag]

Same here. I've tried all the the available trim modes, and found none that I can use reliably after trimming the Apache for flight. That's rather embarrassing, considering that I managed well with all the other helicopters. The Apache's trim I can't get a grip of.

I'd love to see a simple trim function (even if unrealistic) a la Huey: click 'Trim' and it sticks there as neutral; click "release", and it returns to center (like in the Huey). It may not be what the real Apache does, but at least it works and we know how to use it. So please, a 'simple sticky' trim function for us dummies?

Edited March 19, 2022 by cfrag

[Hoirtel]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

Man oh man I am struggling here. No problem after take off trimming for forward flight. But once I return to airfield and try to trim for a hover my Apache turns into totally a bucking bronco that I can not control. 

Same here, just flew for an hour, thought I had the hang of it, went to hover and got flipped over. Right stick input just completely ran away with me. I am using the spring centre option with a spring centre stick. In my head if I keep the force trim pressed and allow the stick to return to centre, the white box and red cross should also return to centre. They do not. They stay aligned with each other but the spring centre of my stick is now located elsewhere. If I move them both back the centre I get too much opposite input as if I have crossed over the centre, I can't understand this. What I am I doing wrong?

I have no spring in my pedals and with the no spring pedal trim option it works perfectly. However the trim option in this case feels kind of useless. I mean its not doing anything, nor do I need it to. The pedals stay in place.

With my spring centred stick I have tried all three trim options. The springless basically does nothing other than move the red cross on the flight controls. The aircraft moves back with the spring as expected, and back to centre, as expected. With the default FFB friendly option it works if you let go of the stick immediately, but not that easy. This is how I have been flying the hind, probably incorrectly but the addition of a reset and the direction controls make this workable for me.

Before I ever touch the trim I find the 64 great to fly & hover. Brilliant fun, not too easy, not too hard. Maybe my time in the hind has helped here. Once I touch that trim, I start to lose touch with the control and looking at the control overlay does not help. (Pedals excluded)

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Hoirtel

[dburne]

My goodness just did another fly around the airport, tried to trim for landing and somehow the heli entered a spin to the right, and my moving my joystick did nothing the stick in cockpit did not move with my stick movements. Ended up in a big crash. This is crazy.

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Same here. I've tried all the the available trim modes, and found none that I can use reliably after trimming the Apache for flight. That's rather embarrassing, considering that I managed well with all the other helicopters. The Apache's trim I can't get a grip of.

I'd love to see a simple trim function (even if unrealistic) a la Huey: click 'Trim' and it sticks there as neutral; click "release", and it returns to center (like in the Huey). It may not be what the real Apache does, but at least it works and we know how to use it. So please, a 'simple sticky' trim function for us dummies?

 

 

Yeah I learned the KA-50 quite some time ago, been along time since. But I sure loved it's trimming procedure. The Apache so far I just can not come to grips with it. And yeah I watched Wags latest video also.  I just can't get trimmed out for a decent landing after trimming for forward flight.  The chopper just goes nuts when I try.

Edited March 19, 2022 by dburne

[scampaboy]

2 hours ago, GoodHope said:

I'm having the same problem here.

I made a little video maybe this can explain it. Please excuse my video editing skills 

 

[Hoirtel]

25 minutes ago, dburne said:

My goodness just did another fly around the airport, tried to trim for landing and somehow the heli entered a spin to the right, and my moving my joystick did nothing the stick in cockpit did not move with my stick movements. Ended up in a big crash. This is crazy.

 

Yeah I learned the KA-50 quite some time ago, been along time since. But I sure loved it's trimming procedure. The Apache so far I just can not come to grips with it. And yeah I watched Wags latest video also.  I just can't get trimmed out for a decent landing after trimming for forward flight.  The chopper just goes nuts when I try.

 

I'm considering just never using the trim. Flies great until I do that. 

[scampaboy]

Just now, Hoirtel said:

I'm considering just never using the trim. Flies great until I do that. 

This please see the video I posted above 

[dburne]

1 minute ago, Hoirtel said:

I'm considering just never using the trim. Flies great until I do that. 

 

May be the best idea yet. Going to give that a try. I am using cold start training to try and get the into my head good, but after start I take off and fly around a while.

Edited March 19, 2022 by dburne

[shizuku]

 

I found it easier to trim when the control indicator was displayed.

It's great to see the position of the trim visually. If you are having trouble with trim, you should give it a try.

The key is RCtrl + Enter

Edited March 19, 2022 by shizuku

[Hoirtel]

4 minutes ago, shizuku said:

 

I found it easier to trim when the control indicator was displayed.

It's great to see the position of the trim visually. If you are having trouble with trim, you should give it a try.

The key is RCtrl + Enter

 

I have this. My main issue was after triming to forward flight, I press the trim, hold it and the remove all pressure from my actual stick. My actual stick returns to centre, both the trim cross and control diamond stay alined but do not return to centre. This is happening all the time, it's as if there is a third position not shown on the control inputs.

16 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

This please see the video I posted above 

I watched it. Yes I agree with you but it needs one with the helicopter in the air and your stick visible to show the mismatch for the centre spring mode. 

[scampaboy]

12 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I have this. My main issue was after triming to forward flight, I press the trim, hold it and the remove all pressure from my actual stick. My actual stick returns to centre, both the trim cross and control diamond stay alined but do not return to centre. This is happening all the time, it's as if there is a third position not shown on the control inputs.

I watched it. Yes I agree with you but it needs one with the helicopter in the air and your stick visible to show the mismatch for the centre spring mode. 

The problem for me isn’t the way it works, it’s there is a bump when I release the stick to centre. 
The crazy rudder and spinning at transition stuff is because you need to deflect the pedals fully the opposite way to centre it. 
You approach slowing down trimmed and your anti torque is trimmed half way to the right. At the point of transition you need to adjust your pedals but you can’t because the trim is locked to the right and there is no reset like there is on the hind. So you spin. 
You can use the third trimmer option on your pedals and then any cyclic trim you set won’t affect your pedals, but you just need to constantly be on them. I prefer it that way anyways 

[dburne]

35 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I'm considering just never using the trim. Flies great until I do that. 

Ok just did the cold start training mission, then taxi to run and I do a rolling takeoff. Fly around a bit and return for a rolling landing. Did great with no issues at all. I never touched the Force Trim. No crazy spinning chopper as I was reducing speed all nice and smooth. Best flight I have had since first trying to use the force trim. I find that very interesting.

[scampaboy]

5 minutes ago, dburne said:

Ok just did the cold start training mission, then taxi to run and I do a rolling takeoff. Fly around a bit and return for a rolling landing. Did great with no issues at all. I never touched the Force Trim. No crazy spinning chopper as I was reducing speed all nice and smooth. Best flight I have had since first trying to use the force trim. I find that very interesting.

It’s a great bird to fly without using trim, but it’s just not practical to use it without trim. 

[Hoirtel]

8 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

The problem for me isn’t the way it works, it’s there is a bump when I release the stick to centre. 
The crazy rudder and spinning at transition stuff is because you need to deflect the pedals fully the opposite way to centre it. 
You approach slowing down trimmed and your anti torque is trimmed half way to the right. At the point of transition you need to adjust your pedals but you can’t because the trim is locked to the right and there is no reset like there is on the hind. So you spin. 
You can use the third trimmer option on your pedals and then any cyclic trim you set won’t affect your pedals, but you just need to constantly be on them. I prefer it that way anyways 

I have removed the spring from my pedals and it has a dampner (xwinds) works great no problem (third option). 

I can't say I see your bump at start but I don't really have that. My issue is as stated earlier with never being able to find centre again after trimming.

9 minutes ago, dburne said:

Ok just did the cold start training mission, then taxi to run and I do a rolling takeoff. Fly around a bit and return for a rolling landing. Did great with no issues at all. I never touched the Force Trim. No crazy spinning chopper as I was reducing speed all nice and smooth. Best flight I have had since first trying to use the force trim. I find that very interesting.

Yes, it all goes incorrectably wrong for me after touching trim. I wish I could make a video but I am not set up for it. Never made a YT vid in my life!

[dburne]

4 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I have removed the spring from my pedals and it has a dampner (xwinds) works great no problem (third option). 

I can't say I see your bump at start but I don't really have that. My issue is as stated earlier with never being able to find centre again after trimming.

 

Hmm I could do that as well as I have the Crosswinds with damper. Might wait till I see if I am really going to stick with the Apache or not. That is reason I am holding off on ordering a collective at this time.

5 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

It’s a great bird to fly without using trim, but it’s just not practical to use it without trim. 

Yeah but right now for me it is way better as I don't enter an uncontrollable spin when trying to slow down for landing not using force trim. Something just seems amiss there.

Edited March 19, 2022 by dburne

[Hoirtel]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Hmm I could do that as well as I have the Crosswinds with damper. Might wait till I see if I am really going to stick with the Apache or not. That is reason I am holding off on ordering a collective at this time.

So i understand heli pedals do not self centre so this is actually more realistic behaviour. Plane rudders get returned by the force of air moving past them (I think - not irl pilot)

Edited March 19, 2022 by Hoirtel

[scampaboy]

22 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah but right now for me it is way better as I don't enter an uncontrollable spin when trying to slow down for landing not using force trim. Something just seems amiss there.

 

Set your rudder trimmer to the third option it’s doesn’t register any trim. You then you can have independent control of the pedals on transition but you are able to force trim your cyclic. The only downside is that you need to keep on the pedals at all times, but I prefer it that way anyway. I fly all the other rotary wing like that. 
 

Edited March 19, 2022 by scampaboy

[dburne]

12 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

Set your rudder trimmer to the third option it’s doesn’t register any trim. You then you can have independent control of the pedals on transition but you are able to force trim your cyclic. The only downside is that you need to keep on the pedals at all times, but I prefer it that way anyway. I fly all the other rotary wing like that. 
 

 

I will take a look at trying that thanks.

[frostycab]

1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

I'm considering just never using the trim. Flies great until I do that. 

I was lucky enough to catch one of the SME's in the same Twitch stream chat last night, and he was kind enough to answer a couple of questions.

He said that although the force trim was obviously something he used all the time in the real aircraft he never uses in the DCS Apache. He recommends not trimming at all and simply holding the cyclic where you want it to be as it's much easier than trying to find the perfect trimmer position. It also negates the fact that there is no way to cancel out or zero your trim like you can in the other helis.

I've been trying out his suggestions today and it does seem to work quite nicely for my setup (I have my cyclic between my legs rather than on the right of my keyboard, and benefit from greater fidelity thanks to a stick extension.) I can, however see that this may not work well for a more conventional setup. I'm able to let got of the collective and hold my cyclic with my left hand if I need my right to use the mouse, but thinking back to the days when I used "standard" control setups this would require quite a bit of flexibility for a lot of people.

[GunnyCook]

I cant believe (although i must) that this multi million dollar bird hasn't got stability controls, the sim version feels like the KA in raw mode. I hope the real thing isnt this hard to fly

 

[Tango3B]

Now, this thread was actually very helpful. Thank you for the wealth of input here, guys. I set my Cyclic Trimmer Mode to Central Position Trimmer Mode and my Pedals Trimmer Mode to Pedals without Springs and FFB. Also, for my pitch axis I set a deadzone of 2 and added a curve of 8. My roll axis has the same values. For rudder I use a deadzone of 3 and a curve of 10. This works like a charm and I can finally fly the Apache in a really smooth and enjoyable way. This is a complete game changer on my end. I use a Thrustmaster F-16 stick, a Virpil Mongoos T-50CM3 throttle and some rusty, old Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals, btw. 

[oscar19681]

Hey what’s up gents! Hey ever since i got my hands on the Apache there have been some weird issues with the controls or Flight model. Offcourse stuff like that is to be expected in an early release title, but is kind of a hassle that I just can’t seem to avoid struggling with from time to time. But here is what the problem is. The Apache often seems totally out of trim, often resulting in some dangerous close calls or even crash & burns as a result of it. For starters there is allways, and I say allways a massive jank & The tendancy for the Apache to pitch nose up, not surprising it is slightly less when in lower tork values, but nonetheless i still have to maintain a permanent push down on the cyclic in order to counter balance it in order to prevent a angel sick half loop that more then usually results in eating the dust. I doubt that the real Apache has this dangerous characteristic. But to rule out all possibilities that can cause this I double checked my stick calibration in DCS & windows, perfectly centered. It seems to me it’s a trim issue or bad trim or something that causes this, but for the love of god there is no way to properly trim the Apache it seems. It turns out the force trim commands don’t do anything at all. What gives?

[JIGGAwest]

there is a way to trim the apache. Wags posted a video, take a look.

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by JIGGAwest

[Ramires]

Just for clarification: Does the AH-64 a Rudder Trim? As already mentioned above H/C's pedals stay in the position you psuhed them in. 
edit: Maybe an option with no rudder trim would be nice... 

Solution: Choose option Rudder with no FFB and Springs 

But is there a trim neutral button?

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Ramires