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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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Hey what’s up gents! Hey ever since i got my hands on the Apache there have been some weird issues with the controls or Flight model. Offcourse stuff like that is to be expected in an early release title, but is kind of a hassle that I just can’t seem to avoid struggling with from time to time. But here is what the problem is. The Apache often seems totally out of trim, often resulting in some dangerous close calls or even crash & burns as a result of it. For starters there is allways, and I say allways a massive jank & The tendancy for the Apache to pitch nose up, not surprising it is slightly less when in lower tork values, but nonetheless i still have to maintain a permanent push down on the cyclic in order to counter balance it in order to prevent a angel sick half loop that more then usually results in eating the dust. I doubt that the real Apache has this dangerous characteristic. But to rule out all possibilities that can cause this I double checked my stick calibration in DCS & windows, perfectly centered. It seems to me it’s a trim issue or bad trim or something that causes this, but for the love of god there is no way to properly trim the Apache it seems. It turns out the force trim commands don’t do anything at all. What gives?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Just for clarification: Does the AH-64 a Rudder Trim? As already mentioned above H/C's pedals stay in the position you psuhed them in. 
edit: Maybe an option with no rudder trim would be nice... 

Solution: Choose option Rudder with no FFB and Springs 😅

But is there a trim neutral button?

 


Edited by Ramires
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12 hours ago, Tango3B said:

Now, this thread was actually very helpful. Thank you for the wealth of input here, guys. I set my Cyclic Trimmer Mode to Central Position Trimmer Mode and my Pedals Trimmer Mode to Pedals without Springs and FFB. Also, for my pitch axis I set a deadzone of 2 and added a curve of 8. My roll axis has the same values. For rudder I use a deadzone of 3 and a curve of 10. This works like a charm and I can finally fly the Apache in a really smooth and enjoyable way. This is a complete game changer on my end. I use a Thrustmaster F-16 stick, a Virpil Mongoos T-50CM3 throttle and some rusty, old Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals, btw. 

This works really well for me with my old X52 + pedals.  Not only managed to fly about, but transitioned to hover and landed (in a large field, mind you) without destroying the bird, on a first attempt.  Thanks so much!

Also found that force trim up works just fine, mapped it to a hat up and it holds current attitude so you can release the stick.

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Hi, 

While unrealistic, could it be possible to implement a standard trim system as an additional option?: Pitch, roll, yaw. 

I think this would fix all trim issues for everyone. At the end of the day, the point is to make the ah-64 as much realistic as possible, but if the hardware 75-90% users have does not allow applying such FCS realism, the result is quite the opposite: poor/degraded handling qualities and controllability. 

Again, I strongly believe allowing a standard (i.e. f-14) trim system will make more enjoyable the experience and more "similar" to the easiness of flying the ah-64. Fighting (erratically) against control springs and a trim system conceptually very differently born, is not the solution. In my opinion. 

Please ED, consider implementing an aircraft standard trim system as an additional option. 

Thanks 

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37 minutes ago, JACN said:

Hi, 

While unrealistic, could it be possible to implement a standard trim system as an additional option?: Pitch, roll, yaw. 

I think this would fix all trim issues for everyone. At the end of the day, the point is to make the ah-64 as much realistic as possible, but if the hardware 75-90% users have does not allow applying such FCS realism, the result is quite the opposite: poor/degraded handling qualities and controllability. 

Again, I strongly believe allowing a standard (i.e. f-14) trim system will make more enjoyable the experience and more "similar" to the easiness of flying the ah-64. Fighting (erratically) against control springs and a trim system conceptually very differently born, is not the solution. In my opinion. 

Please ED, consider implementing an aircraft standard trim system as an additional option. 

Thanks 

+1!

It would be a great addition if this feature will be possible. 

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I can use force trim no problem to trim for forward flight. Takes me a few attempts to get it where I want but I finally get it. The problem I run into is when I want to transition back to a hover or landing, or trim for slower flight. That is when things go crazy and oftentimes my heli spins out of control. It is like I am fighting the crap out of the trim , or it is fighting me one. This just does not feel right at all to me.

Will be making more attempts again later today but not holding much hope that I will experience anything different. 

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Don B

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I'm not following why everyone is having such issues with the force trim.  With a self centerring device just control your stick and pedals  so that there is zero or as little as possible attitude change and press the force trim. Letting the stick and pedals recenter should result in trimmed flight. It does mean you have to retrim at every change that alters the attitude, like change of torque or speed, and it will become one of the most used buttons on the aircraft. 

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16 minutes ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I'm not following why everyone is having such issues with the force trim.  With a self centerring device just control your stick and pedals  so that there is zero or as little as possible attitude change and press the force trim. Letting the stick and pedals recenter should result in trimmed flight. It does mean you have to retrim at every change that alters the attitude, like change of torque or speed, and it will become one of the most used buttons on the aircraft. 

A thing which happened several times:

Decelerating in level flight before landing, stable flight around 60kt, FTR up to set new trim, release the control to neutral and the helicopter pitches up, I have to make large stick input forward to keep it level and make new trim…


Edited by jojo
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I agree, with some practice you can get used to it.

The point here is the actual ah-64 trim force is not what we have in non-FFB devices (having pedal FFB is also important). The actual system clamps or freeze the hardware position...in springs hardware there is a time lapse (0.5 - 1 second?) in which you have to release your control hardware to meet the new zero position (all centred)...it´s all about what happens in that 0.5 and 1 second transition. In the real helo (or 100% FFB hardware) you can do it whatever/whenever you want (hover, transition,cruise...) as there is ALWAYS a continuous followup in the hardware position and the pilot commands.

On the other hand, in spring-loaded devices ("dumb" devices) you need to be quick and trained in the hardware recentering transition that never happens in the real helicopter. Again, that small and many times unpredictable (...specially under high workload situations) reaction is what is killing the handling.

Maybe the implementation of the rest of AP modes (att hold) will help.

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28 minutes ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I'm not following why everyone is having such issues with the force trim.  With a self centerring device just control your stick and pedals  so that there is zero or as little as possible attitude change and press the force trim. Letting the stick and pedals recenter should result in trimmed flight. It does mean you have to retrim at every change that alters the attitude, like change of torque or speed, and it will become one of the most used buttons on the aircraft. 

Then you are one of the lucky few...

:renske:

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Don B

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22 minutes ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I'm not following why everyone is having such issues with the force trim.  With a self centerring device just control your stick and pedals  so that there is zero or as little as possible attitude change and press the force trim. Letting the stick and pedals recenter should result in trimmed flight. It does mean you have to retrim at every change that alters the attitude, like change of torque or speed, and it will become one of the most used buttons on the aircraft. 

 

That's what I'm getting on my Thrustmaster T16000. I align the bird, hit force trim, let the stick go after the trim hit, and I'm centered -aerodynamically and spiritually - and fly away straight and level.

 

For the most part I'm having very smooth flights.

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27 minutes ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I'm not following why everyone is having such issues with the force trim.  With a self centerring device just control your stick and pedals  so that there is zero or as little as possible attitude change and press the force trim. Letting the stick and pedals recenter should result in trimmed flight. It does mean you have to retrim at every change that alters the attitude, like change of torque or speed, and it will become one of the most used buttons on the aircraft. 

What your describing isn't the primary issue. Setting trim initially is not the problem, Re-setting it to land (for example) is, as Dburne has described. No means to neutralize the controls without guessing where to reset too.

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Just now, Fakum said:

What your describing isn't the primary issue. Setting trim initially is not the problem, Re-setting it to land (for example) is, as Dburne has described. No means to neutralize the controls without guessing where to reset too.

 

Oh... landing. :ermm:

 

Yeah, that's something else entirely. 

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2 hours ago, Maxhome said:

This works really well for me with my old X52 + pedals.  Not only managed to fly about, but transitioned to hover and landed (in a large field, mind you) without destroying the bird, on a first attempt.  Thanks so much!

Also found that force trim up works just fine, mapped it to a hat up and it holds current attitude so you can release the stick.

Glad I could help you. And yes, I also find "force trim up" to be working just fine with these settings. The Apache now feels quite stable during transition to hover and landing and I think I do finally get there with my skills. Man, I can tell you I was also struggling really hard with that part of flying until I got my head around the proper settings as I was literally all over the place before...

 

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55 minutes ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I'm not following why everyone is having such issues with the force trim.  With a self centerring device just control your stick and pedals  so that there is zero or as little as possible attitude change and press the force trim. Letting the stick and pedals recenter should result in trimmed flight. It does mean you have to retrim at every change that alters the attitude, like change of torque or speed, and it will become one of the most used buttons on the aircraft. 

If you are trimmed for forward flight, hold down force trim. Control options show red trim cross and white position diamond are aligned. If you let you spring centred stick return to neutral, the white diamond and red cross do not return to the centre of the cross. There is a new centre, this illustrates what I think is the main problem as this can happen in any direction which is why many of us end up fighting the controls with little or no authority to a certain direction. This just seems completely wrong. In the above scenario, when I tried to manually pull back to centre I am madly pitching up, so the previous centre (as show on controls overlay) is not centre. Ok I can kind of get my head around that, but then the result of this means I have less travel available to me forwards and too much aft, at some point this can go so far there is no authority left at all.

I really do think we need a reset, that means that whenever I am about to transition I can start from "fresh" with my neutral shown and centre on the overlay. I really do think this is where real life and a sim have to depart (unless you have a non-centring stick). As someone else said the drive for accuracy is actually resulting in unrealistic behaviour. 

I will however keep practising... 

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17 hours ago, scampaboy said:

You can use the third trimmer option on your pedals

What does this mean please?

16 hours ago, frostycab said:

He recommends not trimming at all and simply holding the cyclic where you want it to be as it's much easier than trying to find the perfect trimmer position.

Here's the problems with that:  your arm will get sore quickly and if you cant use it for other things like cockpit controls.

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43 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I really do think this is where real life and a sim have to depart (unless you have a non-centring stick). As someone else said the drive for accuracy is actually resulting in unrealistic behaviour.

Agreed.  As a Warthog user this would help immensely.

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36 minutes ago, Steel Jaw said:

What does this mean please?

Here's the problems with that:  your arm will get sore quickly and if you cant use it for other things like cockpit controls.

Third trimmer option in the dropdown available in the special options of the 64. It effectively stops the trim from doing anything at all. Designed for hardware that do not return to centre therefore not needed trimmed. 

Yes agreed. I can't transit for very long without trimming! 


Edited by Hoirtel
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There definitely needs to be a 'Reset Trim' option, even if not "realistic."

There's the point where we all have to realize that this is a game and not everyone will have the equipment required to simulate IRL to 100% accuracy.

I've had a handful of sorties ruined due to the Force Trim as-is, and yes I know how it works.

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1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

If you are trimmed for forward flight, hold down force trim. Control options show red trim cross and white position diamond are aligned. If you let you spring centred stick return to neutral, the white diamond and red cross do not return to the centre of the cross. There is a new centre, this illustrates what I think is the main problem as this can happen in any direction which is why many of us end up fighting the controls with little or no authority to a certain direction. This just seems completely wrong. In the above scenario, when I tried to manually pull back to centre I am madly pitching up, so the previous centre (as show on controls overlay) is not centre. Ok I can kind of get my head around that, but then the result of this means I have less travel available to me forwards and too much aft, at some point this can go so far there is no authority left at all.

I really do think we need a reset, that means that whenever I am about to transition I can start from "fresh" with my neutral shown and centre on the overlay. I really do think this is where real life and a sim have to depart (unless you have a non-centring stick). As someone else said the drive for accuracy is actually resulting in unrealistic behaviour. 

I will however keep practising... 

that’s it you can pretty quickly run out of authority especially after spirited flying. You can’t get that authority back without a reset. 
Yeah 2 hrs flying and my shoulder needs a break, started to hold the stick lightly at the bottom to relax my arm. 

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I understand the argument about the new center point of the controls, while your spring stick is physically centered; it being difficult to reach a heavy deflection to the opposite direction as in going from forward flight to a hover. I get it.

Its just that I think many of you are over thinking this. You should always be retrimming. It’s not a one and done thing. So if you’re coming to a situation to slow down and hover or land, you should just be retrimming the stick back for slowing down and hovering/landing.

I mean I don’t care if ED adds force trim reset, no skin off my back. I just think there’s always an initial confusion with exactly how to get trim to work and how to use it properly. We all had confusion with the hind too.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I understand the argument about the new center point of the controls, while your spring stick is physically centered; it being difficult to reach a heavy deflection to the opposite direction as in going from forward flight to a hover. I get it.

Its just that I think many of you are over thinking this. You should always be retrimming. It’s not a one and done thing. So if you’re coming to a situation to slow down and hover or land, you should just be retrimming the stick back for slowing down and hovering/landing.

I mean I don’t care if ED adds force trim reset, no skin off my back. I just think there’s always an initial confusion with exactly how to get trim to work and how to use it properly. We all had confusion with the hind too.

Well I do exactly that when approaching and trying to slow for landing, it is then for me the chopper goes nuts.

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Don B

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4 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I understand the argument about the new center point of the controls, while your spring stick is physically centered; it being difficult to reach a heavy deflection to the opposite direction as in going from forward flight to a hover. I get it.

Its just that I think many of you are over thinking this. You should always be retrimming. It’s not a one and done thing. So if you’re coming to a situation to slow down and hover or land, you should just be retrimming the stick back for slowing down and hovering/landing.

I mean I don’t care if ED adds force trim reset, no skin off my back. I just think there’s always an initial confusion with exactly how to get trim to work and how to use it properly. We all had confusion with the hind too.

Exactly. I retrim at every change in input. So for transitions to hover I will retrim several times as my speed, attitude and torque change. I'm by no means perfect at it, sometimes end up spinning all over the place, but it's only day 3 of owning the module. 

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