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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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7 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I understand the argument about the new center point of the controls, while your spring stick is physically centered; it being difficult to reach a heavy deflection to the opposite direction as in going from forward flight to a hover. I get it.

Its just that I think many of you are over thinking this. You should always be retrimming. It’s not a one and done thing. So if you’re coming to a situation to slow down and hover or land, you should just be retrimming the stick back for slowing down and hovering/landing.

I mean I don’t care if ED adds force trim reset, no skin off my back. I just think there’s always an initial confusion with exactly how to get trim to work and how to use it properly. We all had confusion with the hind too.

Lol. Not at all one press. I'm not over thinking either, this is based on observations and testing. Definitely retrimming! That's the problem, retrimming gets further away from the original position. I also fly the hind, but I reset. Didn't know it wasn't real until last couple of days.

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31 minutes ago, S. Low said:

What do you mean it goes nuts?

Out of control and eventually into a spin.

Headed of for some more trying now. I am hoping I can get this figured out today.

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Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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I was looking at how much torque I was using when I was losing anti torque authority. I was pretty much always at 100% or over, I reduced my wieght before takeoff which has given me a torque overhead and a little more authority. 
I am still getting a bump in the controls when I press trim which I’m looking at. 
Flying correctly and trimming regularly as we all do in other helicopters isn’t going to stop us crashing in an emergency situation where we need full opposite pedal in an instant which is real life if you think about it. They would never allow a helicopter to fly that locked your controls without the ability to release them instantly 


Edited by scampaboy
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3 hours ago, JACN said:

On the other hand, in spring-loaded devices ("dumb" devices) you need to be quick and trained in the hardware recentering transition that never happens in the real helicopter. Again, that small and many times unpredictable (...specially under high workload situations) reaction is what is killing the handling.

^^This. 

That said, I’d admit that after a couple days of flying, I’m starting to get the hang of it. Yesterday I had a long post written out claiming there must be a better way to implement the trim. I’m glad I didn’t post it. Only one day later and I’m finding it much more intuitive, and I think we all need to give it more than a day or two. 
While it isn’t a perfect solution, I’m beginning to believe that ED have done the best they could at simulating force trim of a non spring stick and pedal system. 


Edited by rweaves6

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5 minutes ago, dextor said:

I'd also like to have manual trim, so you can move the trim with some 4way head.  

That does not exist in the real AH-64D. Some helos, like the Mi-24 have it, but not the AH-64.

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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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On 3/18/2022 at 4:00 PM, pierrewind said:

Trimming will also reduce the control range. In some situations, it feels like controls are locked.

It doesn't just feel that way, it seems they factually are, if you observe the stick. It seems to me sometimes (particularily when coming from cruise to slower speeds), the stick locks up in one axis (either pitch or roll, had it happen to me in both, pitch seems to be prevalent) and you'll have to wiggle it free by making very coarse control-inputs in time, before you're in an unrecoverable situation.

One way to somewhat mitigate it is to make frequent trim-adjustments and not come from cruise-trim to hover-trim in one large-a$$ correction, but have three or four steps in between. That's not to avoid the lock-ups, but to avoid the dire consequences of them...

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So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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10 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

It doesn't just feel that way, it seems they factually are, if you observe the stick. It seems to me sometimes (particularily when coming from cruise to slower speeds), the stick locks up in one axis (either pitch or roll, had it happen to me in both, pitch seems to be prevalent) and you'll have to wiggle it free by making very coarse control-inputs in time, before you're in an unrecoverable situation.

It sounds like you are using Central Position Trimmer mode. In this mode, after releasing the force trim button (Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/UP), the aircraft will not respond to any inputs in individual axes until the stick is returned to center (central position). So if the X axis is returned to center but the Y axis does not, the stick will respond to inputs only in X axis until the stick is returned to zero in Y axis.

I recommend trying "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" to see how that feels to you. Despite saying "FFB Friendly", this is almost identical to the "DEFAULT" trimmer mode setting in other modules.


Edited by Raptor9
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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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Another attempt, another spin out and crash when trying to trim for slower approach to runway. This is my third day I think of trying this. I will keep trying.


Edited by dburne

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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I noticed something important which may be part of the reason why people are spinning out when trying to retrim.

It is important that you return the controls to center again after retrimming! The controls are locked until you return to center!


So this is what might often happen. Say you start getting a roll to right, you obviously move the stick to the left to counter, and press retrim, but continue holding left stick. The original stick input was not enough when you pressed retrim, but now the stick is locked, and even if you prove more and more left stick, it doesn't make any difference, as the helicopter continues to roll more and more to the right. The mistake was that you never returned stick to center after pressing trim, and that locked it until you did. And with a more and more right bank, it is very counter intuitive to move the stick the other way (to center it), to release the lock.

If you open the controls display (ctrl-enter) you can easily see this is how the trim works. Stick is locked after trim until you recenter. And the same for pedals.

 

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Don’t forget , after pressing trim you need to also let go of and recenter your physical rudder pedals. 

47 minutes ago, dburne said:

Another attempt, another spin out and crash when trying to trim for slower approach to runway. This is my third day I think of trying this. I will keep trying.

 

I posted a video as a new thread. Does it help or no? 

 

 

Banner EDForum2020.jpg

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Another attempt yet another crash as I get close to runway. All looking good till that last little bit when chopper goes crazy. I have no problem landing at all if I never enable force trim. Chopper starts spinning and I get rotor rpm low message then boom into the ground.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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1 hour ago, dburne said:

Another attempt yet another crash as I get close to runway. All looking good till that last little bit when chopper goes crazy. I have no problem landing at all if I never enable force trim. Chopper starts spinning and I get rotor rpm low message then boom into the ground.

Can you post a track? That sounds like you're pulling to much collective(to fast?) if you get the rotor low rpm message. I'm using no curves for my inputs, special tab settings see attached picture. After disabling the trim for the rudder i had no more problems flying/hovering the Apache myself, but i have lot of practice in the Mi-8/24. I don't like the trim method where you first have to bring your joystick back to its physical centre, so i use the insant trim method, this is also true for every other helicopter i'm flying in DCS.

I attached a track, i don't know if it will replay correct for you or help you at all, please ignore the little sloppy flying, this was quick and dirty done on 2d monitor for recording(will post link after YT processing), i fly only in VR usually.

special.jpg

(i attach the video because i have little time right now - YT has not finished processing yet, 360p now should be 1440p after processing)

ah64d.trk


Edited by unknown

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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Just had another couple of hours. I may have got it.... I almost feel silly.. My mistakes were: Trying to press - manoeuvre - release. This is incorrect. Just tap. Also trying to over reference the control indicator, in many ways its better to forget about where they are. I have removed the spring from my pedals, and have that option selected. This is perfect but I would think the same principles apply if you cannot do this. As for the stick I am on the spring centred option (virpil warbird) As others have said return controls after trimming and before next trim is essential.

So to transition from a level trimmed flight of around 100+ knots I did not touch the trim until I am down to less than thirty knots with very little V/S, then tap trim, re-centre and resume slowing down. Only tap trim when you are in a stage that you are looking to maintain, even if its just for a short period (you will know when this is). Its almost like I am saving all the work I put it to slow down. This then allows me to regain that authority that I had been allowing to run away.

If you are new to helicopters I would recommend flying around an airfield without ever using trim for a while first. Get used to how it handles, transitions and figure out landings and slowing down from high speed in level flight or with a minor descent.

When trimming for level flight I do need to tap a few times to get it right, this seems normal. I do get times when it seems to want to roll to the right. I correct this by leading with left pedal and following up with left stick. Tap trim. 

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Thanks guys. The Trim is definitely better with the INSTANT TRIM setting. 
 

On 3/19/2022 at 2:28 AM, NineLine said:

Make sure you check out Wag's videos on this as well. Thanks.

I have watched wags video. I may have missed a few things in that video... like:
-why is the trim not transfering in MP ?
-why am I losing full control range ?  even if I increase my control sensitivity X2 ?
-why can't the trim system be improved to reduce the offset over a few seconds and make the controls much smoother ?
 

I may be missing things... but this answer doesn't answer the original post ! 
Thank you

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Use the controls to neutralise the movement with both stick and rudders, press and release force trim, let controls recenter. Should now fly trimmed. Do so whenever the situation of the aircraft changes, torque, speed, attitude etc. When transitioning to hover you may need to do this several times and/or do it in stages. Expect there will still be a lot of non-trimmed flying however as the aircraft situation will change a lot during transitions.


Edited by shrimpy_dikdik
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It seems 99% of us that have trim issues, are having them trying to go from forward flight back to neutral trim for hover/landing.

Which will be instantly fixed if ED adds a "return to center" trim option we can bind to a button on the cyclic.

So@Wags @NineLine please consider it. I know the real aircraft doesn't have it, but we don't have Apache cockpits in our basements.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk







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7 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It seems 99% of us that have trim issues, are having them trying to go from forward flight back to neutral trim for hover/landing.

Which will be instantly fixed if ED adds a "return to center" trim option we can bind to a button on the cyclic.

So@Wags @NineLine please consider it. I know the real aircraft doesn't have it, but we don't have Apache cockpits in our basements.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk






 

The problem is user error.  They cant put a button in because people are bafflingly misunderstanding a simple button press.

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8 minutes ago, Jetliner said:

The problem is user error.  They cant put a button in because people are bafflingly misunderstanding a simple button press.

No one is misunderstanding a button press.  Many people here have flown other DCS helicopter modules.

 

And a simple reset trim button (like EVERY OTHER helo module has) would do wonders.

The main solutions seem to be fly with the option that makes you hold the cyclic constantly, thus tiring your arm (god help you if you have legitimate shoulder/arm/wrist/hand health problems) and fly with the option that makes you hold the pedals, thus tiring your legs out (god help you if you have legitimate lower body issues).

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1 hour ago, unknown said:

Can you post a track? That sounds like you're pulling to much collective(to fast?) if you get the rotor low rpm message. I'm using no curves for my inputs, special tab settings see attached picture. After disabling the trim for the rudder i had no more problems flying/hovering the Apache myself, but i have lot of practice in the Mi-8/24. I don't like the trim method where you first have to bring your joystick back to its physical centre, so i use the insant trim method, this is also true for every other helicopter i'm flying in DCS.

I attached a track, i don't know if it will replay correct for you or help you at all, please ignore the little sloppy flying, this was quick and dirty done on 2d monitor for recording(will post link after YT processing), i fly only in VR usually.

special.jpg

 

Holy Crap!

You sir are da man!! Thank you so much!! All I had to do was change those two trim options in the special tab. I had mine set for a stick with springs. I just did cold start , rolling take off ( which I did not have trouble with), flew around trimming the chopper as I flew, returned to airfield for a rolling landing, and handled it beautifully!!

:thumbup:

So again thank you so much! Now I can finally land this thing with ease, wow what a difference those two changes made!!


Edited by dburne

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

Just had another couple of hours. I may have got it.... I almost feel silly.. My mistakes were: Trying to press - manoeuvre - release. This is incorrect. Just tap. Also trying to over reference the control indicator, in many ways its better to forget about where they are. I have removed the spring from my pedals, and have that option selected. This is perfect but I would think the same principles apply if you cannot do this. As for the stick I am on the spring centred option (virpil warbird) As others have said return controls after trimming and before next trim is essential.

So to transition from a level trimmed flight of around 100+ knots I did not touch the trim until I am down to less than thirty knots with very little V/S, then tap trim, re-centre and resume slowing down. Only tap trim when you are in a stage that you are looking to maintain, even if its just for a short period (you will know when this is). Its almost like I am saving all the work I put it to slow down. This then allows me to regain that authority that I had been allowing to run away.

If you are new to helicopters I would recommend flying around an airfield without ever using trim for a while first. Get used to how it handles, transitions and figure out landings and slowing down from high speed in level flight or with a minor descent.

When trimming for level flight I do need to tap a few times to get it right, this seems normal. I do get times when it seems to want to roll to the right. I correct this by leading with left pedal and following up with left stick. Tap trim. 

This is pretty close to what I've been doing. I need to keep an eye on the controls indicator though.  (Ctrl+Enter)

That way I can see exactly where I am with the cyclic since when in straight and level flight, the pitch is quite far forward.

In order to not lose control, I slow down by pulling back on the stick then re trim. Slow down some more and re trim.

By the time I'm on final approach, the stick is almost back to center and I can then hover and land pretty good. (Most of the time)  🥴

My main problem is rocking back and forth. I have tried several different curves and dead zones with no luck.

I guess I just have to keep practicing, but that back and forth wobbling is annoying.

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2 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

And a simple reset trim button (like EVERY OTHER helo module has) would do wonders.

It wouldn't i think. I have the reset trim button mapped in the Mi-8/24 and the only case i use it is on the ground! If you are perfectly trimmed for forward flight and press that trim reset button in an Hip or Hind to get you "trimmed for hover" you cant even say <profanity> fast enough before your nose jumped up wildly in the sky. 

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Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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7 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

No one is misunderstanding a button press.  Many people here have flown other DCS helicopter modules.

 

And a simple reset trim button (like EVERY OTHER helo module has) would do wonders.

The main solutions seem to be fly with the option that makes you hold the cyclic constantly, thus tiring your arm (god help you if you have legitimate shoulder/arm/wrist/hand health problems) and fly with the option that makes you hold the pedals, thus tiring your legs out (god help you if you have legitimate lower body issues).

Anyone who has flown a current heli module should have this system down fine.  You should never be "resetting" the trim all at once that would cause an ungodly amount of random control input to happen as all the controls snap back to whatever "reset" was.  Just retrim it when you change conditions - I never need to go hands on full time when enroute you're doing something wrong.

3 minutes ago, unknown said:

It wouldn't i think. I have the reset trim button mapped in the Mi-8/24 and the only case i use it is on the ground! If you are perfectly trimmed for forward flight and press that trim reset button in an Hip or Hind to get you "trimmed for hover" you cant even say <profanity> fast enough before your nose jumped up wildly in the sky. 

Exactly this.  If you try to "reset" trim mid flight you're going into some attitude that will spell death real quick.

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5 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Holy Crap!

You sir are da man!! Thank you so much!! All I had to do was change those two trim options in the special tab. I had mine set for a stick with springs. I just did cold start , rolling take off ( which I did not have trouble with), flew around trimming the chopper as I flew, returned to airfield for a rolling landing, and handled it beautifully!!

:thumbup:

So again thank you so much! Now I can finally land this thing with ease, wow what a difference those two changes made!!

 

Glad that worked out for you too. :thumbup: In my opinion the Apache is one of the easier helicopters to fly in DCS.

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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