Force Trim

[arneh]

48 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It seems 99% of us that have trim issues, are having them trying to go from forward flight back to neutral trim for hover/landing.

Which will be instantly fixed if ED adds a "return to center" trim option we can bind to a button on the cyclic.

I don't get this, there is no way this "neutral" trim is the correct one for hover/landing (as if there is ever one which is correct for all situations). You will still need to work to set it to what is correct after resetting trim. But in the mean time you've had the control positions change wildly as you press the reset.

[Floyd1212]

Maybe someone who is not experiencing issues with the current trim system can explain this procedure step by step.

Let's assume I'm flying straight and level at 120 knots and my stick is maybe 60% pushed forward and 5% to the left.  I want to take my hand off the cyclic to interact with the MPD using my mouse.  My joystick has now re-centered itself because of the springs, but the game thinks I am still holding it in position.

What is the process for getting the stick back into the correct 60% forward and 5% left position so I can "resume" controlling the aircraft in real-time?

[Jetliner]

6 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Maybe someone who is not experiencing issues with the current trim system can explain this procedure step by step.

Let's assume I'm flying straight and level at 120 knots and my stick is maybe 60% pushed forward and 5% to the left.  I want to take my hand off the cyclic to interact with the MPD using my mouse.  My joystick has now re-centered itself because of the springs, but the game thinks I am still holding it in position.

What is the process for getting the stick back into the correct 60% forward and 5% left position so I can "resume" controlling the aircraft in real-time?

Okay, first of all 60% forward would be WAY too much and you likely would run out of room to correct it with just 1 trim set but lets just use it for argument sake.

You're flying straight and level with 60% forward and 5% left.  You press and release your trim button and let go of your real world stick.  The aircraft will keep your 60% forward and 5% left position while you interact with the MFD and your real world stick is centered.  Assuming you want to enter a hover you will now just pull back on on your real world stick until you start slowing down.  Since you had 60% nose forward you'll probably have to do this with 2 trim button presses so as you start to slow down youll press the button and let go of your real world stick again (or at least just neutralize it) then pull back a touch more to slow down and establish a hover.  Once you're in a hover position you like you can press the trim switch again and neutralize your real stick and whamo the heli will be roughly holding that and you can make fine adjustments around that with your real stick.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jetliner

[Dannyvandelft]

The problem is user error.  They cant put a button in because people are bafflingly misunderstanding a simple button press.

BS. We don't have the same clamping controls so we can't possibly do it the same way.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I don't get this, there is no way this "neutral" trim is the correct one for hover/landing (as if there is ever one which is correct for all situations). You will still need to work to set it to what is correct after resetting trim. But in the mean time you've had the control positions change wildly as you press the reset.

From a reset, you know where your trim is, and you can adjust accordingly for hover.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[javelina1]

2 hours ago, unknown said:

Can you post a track? That sounds like you're pulling to much collective(to fast?) if you get the rotor low rpm message. I'm using no curves for my inputs, special tab settings see attached picture. After disabling the trim for the rudder i had no more problems flying/hovering the Apache myself, but i have lot of practice in the Mi-8/24. I don't like the trim method where you first have to bring your joystick back to its physical centre, so i use the insant trim method, this is also true for every other helicopter i'm flying in DCS.

I attached a track, i don't know if it will replay correct for you or help you at all, please ignore the little sloppy flying, this was quick and dirty done on 2d monitor for recording(will post link after YT processing), i fly only in VR usually.

(i attach the video because i have little time right now - YT has not finished processing yet, 360p now should be 1440p after processing)

ah64d.trk 887.36 kB · 1 download

 

Whoa, I made these simple changes, and WOW!  I've landed this bird 3 times in a row, no issue!  incredible! 

[Nevyn]

One thing the MI-8 teaches you is not to rush anything and stay relaxed, when you start tensing up things go left fast, so I am having no problems slowing down and keeping everything under control for the most part, but its all slow measured inputs.

51 minutes ago, Jetliner said:

Since you had 60% nose forward you'll probably have to do this with 2 trim button presses so as you start to slow down youll press the button and let go of your real world stick again (or at least just neutralize it) then pull back a touch more to slow down and establish a hover. 

I do it this way and it seems to be the best way to do it, I watch the thingy on the right side that shows whether you are going up or down (can't think of it's name right now). So basically pull back on the stick, gently, the thingy on the right side shows climb, trim, wait for the thingy on the right side to reach the center as you drop the collective, gently, pull back some more, trim, drop collective, wait for center, check speed,and so on and so forth until you reach 0kts.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Nevyn

[Floyd1212]

28 minutes ago, Jetliner said:

Okay, first of all 60% forward would be WAY too much and you likely would run out of room to correct it with just 1 trim set but lets just use it for argument sake.

Thanks for the reply.  I guess because of the curve of 15 on my axis, level flight at around 120 knots looks like this.

I get how you would go through the process of holding down trim, pulling back 30% and right 2.5%, releasing trim, letting your stick recenter, then doing that a second time, and now you are back to your trim marker at center and your stick at center, but honestly it seems like there should be a better way that isn't fighting the simulation quite as much. 

It's bad enough that my joystick isn't staying in the forward position when I take my hand off of it, like it would in the real thing, but now I have to go through these extra gyrations to get it back in sync with the virtual representation in the game.

However, my actual question was for how I get my stick back to the forward 60% and left 5% position to simply resume forward flight at 120 knots with the position of my IRL joystick matching the position of the virtual stick in the game?

[S. Low]

Center return trim option is still instant trim. You can either press and release quickly, or press and hold.. then release. Press/release works better.

If you use the FFB friendly option, remember that if you recenter your physical joystick after trimming, it will register in game as a slight movement away from trim because it assumes you’re using a FFB which would hold your physical stick in place 

[Hoirtel]

14 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Thanks for the reply.  I guess because of the curve of 15 on my axis, level flight at around 120 knots looks like this.

I get how you would go through the process of holding down trim, pulling back 30% and right 2.5%, releasing trim, letting your stick recenter, then doing that a second time, and now you are back to your trim marker at center and your stick at center, but honestly it seems like there should be a better way that isn't fighting the simulation quite as much. 

It's bad enough that my joystick isn't staying in the forward position when I take my hand off of it, like it would in the real thing, but now I have to go through these extra gyrations to get it back in sync with the virtual representation in the game.

However, my actual question was for how I get my stick back to the forward 60% and left 5% position to simply resume forward flight at 120 knots with the position of my IRL joystick matching the position of the virtual stick in the game?

Don't hold it down. Move, tap trim, and then recentre. 

[Nightmare22]

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

It sounds like you are using Central Position Trimmer mode. In this mode, after releasing the force trim button (Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/UP), the aircraft will not respond to any inputs in individual axes until the stick is returned to center (central position). So if the X axis is returned to center but the Y axis does not, the stick will respond to inputs only in X axis until the stick is returned to zero in Y axis.

I recommend trying "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" to see how that feels to you. Despite saying "FFB Friendly", this is almost identical to the "DEFAULT" trimmer mode setting in other modules.

 

This is happening to me with the rudder pedals, which is really frustrating. If I push say 20% left rudder pedal then trim, by force of habit from my other helicopter modules I will often physically keep my feet at that 20% left rudder pedal position, then when I want to increase to say 40% left rudder I can't just push from my feet from the already 20% left rudder position to 40% left rudder as it locks up left rudder wont move at all, I then have to re-centre centre my pedals and then recommit to 40% left rudder from centre.

The problem with this is to re-centre quickly I tend to over correct to centre with a slight right rudder or have to lift my feet of the pedals which just feels wrong - either way it looks messy.

[Floyd1212]

Another observation that some of you may not realize if you haven't had the controls indicator thing showing at the top-left of your screen:

If you are using a hat for the trim functions, and you are holding the hat in the Force Trim Release position (up), and you accidentally come off the button and re-engage it while you are maneuvering, you will have instantly added the current axis values to the previous trimmed position.

For example, if you are flying NOE and are in a left hand banking turn, with the stick at 30% forward and 15% left, you accidentally come off that trim button and re-engage it, you are now instantly at 60% forward and 30% left as your new trimmed position.

This may be intuitive to some, but it is quite striking when you see it happen up in the controls indicator.

[Sarge55]

5 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

It sounds like you are using Central Position Trimmer mode. In this mode, after releasing the force trim button (Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/UP), the aircraft will not respond to any inputs in individual axes until the stick is returned to center (central position). So if the X axis is returned to center but the Y axis does not, the stick will respond to inputs only in X axis until the stick is returned to zero in Y axis.

I recommend trying "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" to see how that feels to you. Despite saying "FFB Friendly", this is almost identical to the "DEFAULT" trimmer mode setting in other modules.

 

Thanks for this... I thought it was strictly for FFB sticks.

I've been struggling with the Apache particularly with slowing down and landing.  And, occasionally my controls would lock up, usually the rudder (they're a bit spikey).  I popped back into the Ka-50 and had no issues at all.    I notice I use "Default" in the Ka-50 when I checked to see the axis settings, I was not using center position trim.

Going to switch over and give it another go.

[JACN]

I keep thinking if ED gives us a standard trim system (aircraft like) as an alternative substituting the current force trim switch, the controllability issues many of us are experiencing would be, at the very least, atenuated.

Of course, unrealistic, but what really matters is having an as much smooth, predictable and controllable helicopter as the real thing. With our standard hardware, the result is quite the opposite, unfortunately. You can get used to it and master it, but the resulting handling will be (always) a degraded version of the real ah-64.

Edited March 20, 2022 by JACN

[Floyd1212]

A trimming function is nice for two different reasons, one is to let you take your hands off the stick while cruising, and the other is to establish a new center point for then making fine adjustments.

To solve the first scenario, you almost need a toggle button that switches between an "active joystick" mode when enabled, and "ignore my joystick position" when disabled.  Normally this toggle function would be engaged so you can fly around normally with your joystick active, but when you need to take you hand off the stick, flip it off then let go of your stick.  When you are ready to resume control of the helo, move your stick into the approximate position where you left it, then engage the "active" mode again.

I realize this is not true to the real thing, but this is more of a "sim world" necessity since our feeble (yet sometimes very expensive) controls aren't quite like the real thing.

Edit: After typing that up, it occurred to me that you might be able to do this with some software outside of DCS.  Like using vJoy to remap the axis to a virtual joystick and having a way to enable and disable the mapping.  I'll have to investigate that.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Floyd1212

[Hoirtel]

Once you get it, it's fine. Like riding bike... You wonder how you ever managed to fall off. Earlier I was convinced it was all wrong. Now I don't even want a reset! I have lessons to apply to the hind. 

[Jetliner]

2 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

From a reset, you know where your trim is, and you can adjust accordingly for hover.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

I hate to break it to you, but you just dont understand how the trim system works.  If you reset your trim mid flight its not going to give you some perfect clarity that will neutral the heli out and place it into the perfect conditions for a hover.  You have to actually do some flying here.

[dburne]

Yeah pretty sure I got it now - am really greasing some nice landings in. Good times.

[Fakum]

@dburne This thread is getting to be a little difficult to follow all of the variables,, Im curious, what were your original settings that you were struggling with and what did you change them too? Do you have center spring stick and pedals? I ask because the pic that was posted doesnt match its recommendation to remove the trim feature on the pedals.

I have been setting my cruise trim in every helo I own for years and I reset the trim in flight when I am about to land or whatever, and it works great! You do this and you can slowly ease the pressure off the stick and rudder and it smoothly goes back to center position like it was before you took off. Of course, if you hit the reset while your moving fast, and you dont put some pressure on the controls before you hit the reset, you will loose control. This offers much better control then what we have in the Apache.

When I am trim set in the Apache, and want to slow down, I have to slowly move the stick back towards its center position (and it fights me all the way) and slowly start tapping the trimmer release to set the revised center until I coax it back towards its actual physical center (or there abouts).

[Beirut]

Do the trim settings for the peddles have any effect on twist flightsticks or is it peddles only?

 

Might be a very stupid question , but who knows in something this complicated, eh?

[Jetliner]

30 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Do the trim settings for the peddles have any effect on twist flightsticks or is it peddles only?

 

Might be a very stupid question , but who knows in something this complicated, eh?

Pedals are trimmed at the same time you trim everything else.  The button trims all control surfaces at once.

[Beirut]

12 minutes ago, Jetliner said:

Pedals are trimmed at the same time you trim everything else.  The button trims all control surfaces at once.

 

I hear ya, and forgive my confusion, but there are two trim choices in the "Special" section; collective and pedals. Does that mean the pedals option is effecting just the twist on my flightstick, or does the pedals option only apply to pedals and not affect my flightstick?

 

If you see what I'm getting at.

[rayrayblues]

Does anyone know what the "Stabilator" is and does it relate to trimming?

I tried using it and it seemed to have a mild effect of keeping things a bit more stable,

but I'm not sure if it was really doing something or was it my imagination?

[Raptor9]

Short version: the stabilator (horizontal all-moving surface mounted on the tail) is managed automatically by the Flight Management Computer to maintain appropriate fuselage pitch attitudes in various phases of flight and power conditions. This isn't affected by force trim, but it is affected by speed, atmospheric measurements and collective inputs.

Normally you don't need to mess with this manually, but you can under 80 knots if you choose to. Above 80 knots it will revert to automatic, and manual use cannot be employed.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Raptor9

[dburne]

59 minutes ago, Fakum said:

@dburne This thread is getting to be a little difficult to follow all of the variables,, Im curious, what were your original settings that you were struggling with and what did you change them too? Do you have center spring stick and pedals? I ask because the pic that was posted doesnt match its recommendation to remove the trim feature on the pedals.

I have been setting my cruise trim in every helo I own for years and I reset the trim in flight when I am about to land or whatever, and it works great! You do this and you can slowly ease the pressure off the stick and rudder and it smoothly goes back to center position like it was before you took off. Of course, if you hit the reset while your moving fast, and you dont put some pressure on the controls before you hit the reset, you will loose control. This offers much better control then what we have in the Apache.

When I am trim set in the Apache, and want to slow down, I have to slowly move the stick back towards its center position (and it fights me all the way) and slowly start tapping the trimmer release to set the revised center until I coax it back towards its actual physical center (or there abouts).

Only thing I changed was the type of trim in the special tab. From I think central position trimmer mode to Instant Trim (FFB Friendly) . Now I am greasing my running landings in. Now working on my landings from a hover, which seems to present a new challenge for me. I will get there though I am sure.

And yes I have center spring stick and pedals. VKB Gunfighter Pro with 200mm extension center mounted and Crosswind Pedals.

edit: What is this trimmer release you are referring to? Do you mean you are just setting a new trim?

Edited March 20, 2022 by dburne

[Fakum]

11 minutes ago, dburne said:

Only thing I changed was the type of trim in the special tab. From I think central position trimmer mode to Instant Trim (FFB Friendly) . Now I am greasing my running landings in. Now working on my landings from a hover, which seems to present a new challenge for me. I will get there though I am sure.

And yes I have center spring stick and pedals. VKB Gunfighter Pro with 200mm extension center mounted and Crosswind Pedals.

edit: What is this trimmer release you are referring to? Do you mean you are just setting a new trim?

 

Thanks, and yes, I am referring to the button that "Sets the Trim".