Force Trim

[Dannyvandelft]

I hate to break it to you, but you just dont understand how the trim system works.  If you reset your trim mid flight its not going to give you some perfect clarity that will neutral the heli out and place it into the perfect conditions for a hover.  You have to actually do some flying here.

Hate to break it to you, but you just don't understand how English works. Never said it would place the helicopter in perfect hover conditions. I said it would recenter trim, so you know where it's set. Meaning, neutral. Which is what we want.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[gonk]

Please add the ability to recenter trim for Spring Centering Joysticks.

1:- There is no kinesthetic feedback for the trim setting for spring centering joysticks.

2:- I either have to look at the controls, or have the silly overlay running to get some feedback.

3:- If you don't want this.. don't use it..  but give the people who don't have FFB a choice.

4:- Program software... not people.

 

Thanks, very nice state for release.

[S. Low]

If you press a trim reset while you’re trimmed for 130 IAS the aircraft is going to nose up to the moon.

So that means you’re going to have to retrim as you decelerate, and retrim more while managing collective to be at a controllable descent rate. 

Where does trim reset come into play here?

[Japo32]

25 minutes ago, S. Low said:

Where does trim reset come into play here?

The same as the rest of the helicopters in DCS. You choose when reset or not.

[gonk]

13 hours ago, S. Low said:

If you press a trim reset while you’re trimmed for 130 IAS the aircraft is going to nose up to the moon.

So that means you’re going to have to retrim as you decelerate, and retrim more while managing collective to be at a controllable descent rate. 

Where does trim reset come into play here?

This ability works fine on other choppers.. again, it is a matter of giving people the choice.. I am not forcing people to use it.

 

I think they should make the game for VR only... and stop people playing on screens.. as it is not real enough.. see my point ?

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by gonk
typo

[SkateZilla]

 

[S. Low]

I don't get it. When do you even use it? It's worse to use it than just re-trimming and flying properly. Eh... I'm done here lol. I have no skin in this. I hope you get what you need. 

[shrimpy_dikdik]

Trim reset? So after 30 mins flying and trimming you press a trim reset to return to I assume the trim conditions at take off? How's that going to help? You will likely shoot upwards and spin all over the place. Maybe I'm missing the point and someone can explain how this would help, perhaps describe the situation it would be used. 

 

For me the current trim is working great. I take off using a bit of rudder, neutralise my attitude and vertical speed, force trim, return controls to center, lovely level flight. I turn to the direction I want, increase torque, nose down, gain speed and have to compensate with the controls for the change in aircraft situation. Aka fly the aircraft. Once I'm happy with my cruise I trim again as before and I have perfectly controlled flight with my legs and hands relaxed. For going back to hover its the same, maybe a few more trim steps added as torque control is more difficult for this.

 

 

 

[Hoirtel]

As a previous user of reset in the hind it always bothered me that I was never able to do this smoothly. Now I know why, now I will not be using this. The central position trimmer does actually work very well. It can feel odd to trim then recentre your controls when you are in the middle of transitioning as you expect to lose all your hard work, but you don't. And then you can carry on making minor corrections but with the benefits of being close to the centre of your stick and getting the best of whatever curves you have applied. It's actually very good.

[cfrag]

14 hours ago, Jetliner said:

The problem is user error.  They cant put a button in because people are bafflingly misunderstanding a simple button press.

The problem isn't "user error". That term shouldn't even exist. What we are seeing are erratic, unexpected results due to unmatched user expectations. The problem is bad communication.

When people say 'no, you misunderstand me', they are unfortunately badly misjudging the situation and mistake effect for cause. They would be doing everyone more justice if they said instead "sorry, I have expressed my thoughts badly" and try to better convey their thoughts. Communication is always the responsibility of the sender. Ensure that you get your message across in a way that is accessible to the receiver.

So when 99% of people can't get the Apache's trim to work, and it's not a program bug, there is only one possible cause for this: ED did not properly communicate how this is done correctly, nor did they design the interface in a way that respects what people expect and is sufficiently accessible to them. 

Moreover, since we are talking software, it is entirely possible to put in a button to alleviate the issue if that helps users - if the effect is that 99% of said users can get more fun out of the module they purchased it's definitely something they should do. It's called User Interface Design for a reason - good UI design follows a user's expectations, is fault tolerant and easily communicable to the user. If you don't have that, users' results will be erratic and frustrating. It's never user error. It's usually communication break-down and bad UI.

So to me, I'd very much welcome a multi-pronged approach to this issue (which clearly is an issue - six pages of frustration is a clear testament):

• If possible, add another option (to the three existing) in Settings that allows a trim reset separately for stick and rudder (I a use spring-loaded joystick and no-spring rudder, as probably most of us here do)  
• Add some more documentation on how these work, what to expect, and how to use under which circumstances. There's already one excellent video in this thread (non-ED, but still ), and the situation can only get better. 

The Apache is a great module; now let's shake out the bugs and get the user documentation sorted out.

Edited March 21, 2022 by cfrag

[Hoirtel]

1 minute ago, cfrag said:

The problem isn't "user error". That term shouldn't even exist. What we are seeing are erratic, unexpected results due to unmatched user expectations. The problem is bad communication.

When people say 'no, you misunderstand me', they are unfortunately badly misjudging the situation and mistake effect for cause. They would be doing everyone more justice is they said instead "sorry, I have expressed my thoughts badly" and try to better convey their thoughts. Communication is always the responsibility of the sender. Ensure that you get your message across in a way that is accessible to the receiver.

So when 99% of people can't get the Apache's trim to work, and it's not a program bug, there is only one possible cause for this: ED did not properly communicate how this is done correctly, nor  did they design the interface in a way that people expect or that is easily accessible to them. 

Moreover, since we are talking software, it is entirely possible to put in a button to alleviate the issue if that helps users - if the effect is that 99% of said users can get more fun out of the module they purchased it's definitely something they should do. It's called User Interface Design for a reason - good UI design follows a user's expectations, is fault tolerant and easily communicable to the user. If you don't have that, users' results will be erratic and frustrating. It's never user error. It's usually communication break-down and bad UI.

So to me, I'd very much welcome a multi-pronged approach to this issue (which clearly is an issue - six pages of frustration is a clear testament):

• If possible, add another option (to the three existing) in Settings that allows a trim reset separately for stick and rudder (I a use spring-loaded joystick and no-spring rudder, as probably most of us here do)  
• Add some more documentation on how these work, what to expect, and how to use under which circumstances. There's already once excellent video in this thread (non-ED, but still ), and the situation can only get better. 

The Apache is a great module; now let's shake out the bugs and get the user documentation sorted out.

There have been videos/tutorials but I don't think anyone has done a video showing the trim working alongside their actual stick position/movements on a split screen. I think that would clear it all up. The penny dropped for me yesterday, it does work very well. I've never made a YT vid so probably take me weeks to get one out. Hopefully someone else will do this!

[cow_art]

May I also add one more suggestion:

• add directional trim buttons for cyclic/rudder which adapt the trimmed position in very small increments (similar to the beep trim in the Mi-24)

I know its not realistic for the Apache, but I am sure it would be a massive help for people who have to live with non-optimal controls.

[Hoirtel]

1 minute ago, cow_art said:

May I also add one more suggestion:

• add directional trim buttons for cyclic/rudder which adapt the trimmed position in very small increments (similar to the beep trim in the Mi-24)

I know its not realistic for the Apache, but I am sure it would be a massive help for people who have to live with non-optimal controls.

It really doesn't need it. I have been through exactly the same thought process, but the current method is much quicker and more accurate.

[cow_art]

12 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

It really doesn't need it. I have been through exactly the same thought process, but the current method is much quicker and more accurate.

It is only accurate if you have very good controls or are happy with a compromise (such as putting huge curves on your cyclic/rudders). I am currently using a CH Fighterstick / Pedals (which have a pretty low resolution: 255 steps per axis). And I can tell you holding a precise hover in the Apache is not exactly easy with that. I am not new to DCS helicopters, I can hover other high-fidelity DCS helos all day (I can also hover the Apache but I currently find it quite challenging and think, a fine-grained directional trim would make getting into a perfectly trimmed hover position a LOT easier for me).

Bottom line: It's great if some people don't need additional trim functions, but other people might. And it really is a pretty easy thing to add.

Edited March 21, 2022 by cow_art

[Hoirtel]

12 minutes ago, cow_art said:

It is only accurate if you have very good controls or are happy with a compromise (such as putting huge curves on your cyclic/rudders). I am currently using a CH Fighterstick / Pedals (which have a pretty low resolution: 255 steps per axis). And I can tell you holding a precise hover in the Apache is not exactly easy with that. I am not new to DCS helicopters, I can hover other high-fidelity DCS helos all day (I can also hover the Apache but I currently find it quite challenging and think, a fine-grained directional trim would make getting into a perfectly trimmed hover position a LOT easier for me).

Bottom line: It's great if some people don't need additional trim functions, but other people might. And it really is a pretty easy thing to add.

 

Thinking about it just now, would binding the non-axis cyclic and pedal controls to a hat do the same thing?? Maybe worth a try if you feel you need it.

Edit: not the same thing actually... but similar as this would move the white diamond and not the cross. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Hoirtel

[cow_art]

1 minute ago, Hoirtel said:

Thinking about it just now, would binding the non-axis cyclic and pedal controls to a hat do the same thing?? Maybe worth a try if you feel you need it.

Edit: not the same thing actually... but similar as this would move the white diamond and not the cross. 

 

It's a good suggestion and indeed I already tried that: Use key presses to move the white diamond a tiny amount then immediately press the force trim release button to "store" the new trim position. It works in principle but it's very quirky and unreliable (if your stick moves even the tiniest bit while you do this, the white diamond immediately resets and you have to start over ==> with that technique I definitely couldn't keep the trim buttons on the stick).

[Fakum]

7 hours ago, S. Low said:

If you press a trim reset while you’re trimmed for 130 IAS the aircraft is going to nose up to the moon.

So that means you’re going to have to retrim as you decelerate, and retrim more while managing collective to be at a controllable descent rate. 

Where does trim reset come into play here?

"If you press a trim reset while you’re trimmed for 130 IAS the aircraft is going to nose up to the moon." Of course you will IF you dont apply some pressure in the direction you are trimmed at before you hit the Trim Reset,,,, work's OUTSTANDING in modules such as the Huey for example.

[Captain Orso]

6 minutes ago, Fakum said:

"If you press a trim reset while you’re trimmed for 130 IAS the aircraft is going to nose up to the moon." Of course you will IF you dont apply some pressure in the direction you are trimmed at before you hit the Trim Reset,,,, work's OUTSTANDING in modules such as the Huey for example.

Unless you have FFB, it is ultimately important to go into Options, Special, AH-64, and set joystick and pedals to spring return - this VERY IMPORTANT! 

Also, watch this video. It demonstrates force trim very well: 

 

[Hoirtel]

16 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

Unless you have FFB, it is ultimately important to go into Options, Special, AH-64, and set joystick and pedals to spring return - this VERY IMPORTANT! 

Also, watch this video. It demonstrates force trim very well: 

 

Yes that pretty much covers it, but a separate video feed of his stick would have made it really clear.

[Lurker]

All choppers (that feature pedal trim) should really have the same special options that the Apache has. That's one really cool addition that Eagle Dynamics has made, and should make flying it a breeze with springless pedals. 

[Tiger-II]

I use force trim (center position) in all helicopters in DCS and it works great!

What you must remember is once you RELEASE the trimmer you must return your stick/pedals to center to continue otherwise it just ignores the input.

Trim reset works best when doing a quick-stop with the collective all the way down. This minimizes torque forces and makes it easier to react to aircraft attitude changes as a result of the control positions changing.

What screws up flight controls in ALL sims is the fact we have spring-return-to-center controls. The majority of flight controls IRL do not move when trimmed; it merely eliminates the forces required to hold the controls in that position.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Tiger-II

[S. Low]

2 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

There have been videos/tutorials but I don't think anyone has done a video showing the trim working alongside their actual stick position/movements on a split screen. I think that would clear it all up. The penny dropped for me yesterday, it does work very well. I've never made a YT vid so probably take me weeks to get one out. Hopefully someone else will do this!

13:50

 

 

[Hoirtel]

5 minutes ago, S. Low said:

13:50

 

 

Not the control overlay, the actual stick. That will show the return to centre not registered by the white diamond.

[S. Low]

1 minute ago, Hoirtel said:

Not the control overlay, the actual stick. That will show the return to centre not registered by the white diamond.

Well, I can try to make this video later after work. I don’t personally understand how it’ll help but if you think it will

[Hoirtel]

Just now, S. Low said:

Well, I can try to make this video later after work. I don’t personally understand how it’ll help but if you think it will

Well, I got it now but I think the combination of flying, control overlay and the actual stick would show people everything. There is some hand movements there that are not visible otherwise. I (like others) was ok in trimming for level flight because the intention is to rest my arms so I did return to centre. However when transitioning it initially feels wrong as you expect to lose control. Once your brain has made this connection, it makes total sense and its hard to think of it any other way!