Force Trim

[jojo]

It takes a little bit of practice, but finally, with frequent FTR tap and quick controls recentrer, it’s acceptable, not perfect but acceptable.

But we are currently missing most of flight assistance modes, such as HEADING HOLD (huge help), AUTO HOVEr below 05kt, GROUND SPEED HOLD (Vs + Vy) between 05kt and 40kt, auto wings level with ATT HOLD above 40kt if roll < 03°.

When all these modes will be available, most of these problems will be solved.

My only problem so far is when I trim in one direction and return control ps to neutral I get a small nod in the opposite direction.

[S. Low]

1 minute ago, jojo said:

It takes a little bit of practice, but finally, with frequent FTR tap and quick controls recentrer, it’s acceptable, not perfect but acceptable.

But we are currently missing most of flight assistance modes, such as HEADING HOLD (huge help), AUTO HOVEr below 05kt, GROUND SPEED HOLD (Vs + Vy) between 05kt and 40kt, auto wings level with ATT HOLD above 40kt if roll < 03°.

When all these modes will be available, most of these problems will be solved.

My only problem so far is when I trim in one direction and return control ps to neutral I get a small nod in the opposite direction.

If you’re using FFB trim in special options it will register your return to center as opposite deflection. Make sure you’re on center return trim in special options.

But generally yeah, what we have now means I can’t get a perfect trim. I still keep hand on the stick and make minute adjustments while flying.

[jojo]

Just now, S. Low said:

If you’re using FFB trim in special options it will register your return to center as opposite deflection. Make sure you’re on center return trim in special options.

But generally yeah, what we have now means I can’t get a perfect trim. I still keep hand on the stick and make minute adjustments while flying.

I do, first thing I did after installation.
But it’s like I’m holding it still, trim tap, quick controls recentre, and it’s wobbling around new position.
By successive smaller trim action I can get it stable, but it’s more work than it should.

I also used the Hind before so I’m aware of these trimming problems.

[S. Low]

Sounds like what mine does, I’m assuming this is because altitude hold isn’t implemented yet. It’s not difficult to fly you just can’t fly it perfectly hands off.

This also reminds me of something I think casmo talked about with new Apache pilots where they spend too much time staring at all of the flight information rather than just looking outside and flying the helo 

Edited March 21, 2022 by S. Low

[jojo]

Just now, S. Low said:

Sounds like what mine does, I’m assuming this is because altitude hold isn’t implemented yet. It’s not difficult to fly you just can’t fly it perfectly hands off.

Yep, that’s it. A little bit frustrating right now, but it’s early access. I hope they will improve flight assistance quickly.

When flying with George, you have to micro-manage him and to take care of the TSD by yourself, it does increase the work load…

[dburne]

Do we know when one uses center spring trim method how quickly the stick must be returned to center for it to take effect? I suspect this may be my issue with trying to use this method causing me so much frustration - it is like sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. Going to give that method another try this morning focusing on getting it returned to center as quickly as I can .  My stick has a 200 mm extension so that may play a part in it as well, in not getting it returned to center in time for it to apply. Along with the pedals.

Edited March 21, 2022 by dburne

[Raptor9]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

Do we know when one uses center spring trim method how quickly the stick must be returned to center for it to take effect?

When using Central Position Trimmer Mode the axis will not respond to inputs until it is brought back to center. There is no time limit. But this can incur a mistaken conclusion the axis is broken if the player doesn't bring the stick all the way back to center before trying to make another input after pushing the force trim button.

[dburne]

4 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

When using Central Position Trimmer Mode the axis will not respond to inputs until it is brought back to center. There is no time limit. But this can incur a mistaken conclusion the axis is broken if the player doesn't bring the stick all the way back to center before trying to make another input after pushing the force trim button.

Okay thanks much for the info. Going to give it another try this morning with the with springs method and see how I get along. Will focus on getting the stick and pedals returned to center asap once pressing the force trim button.

If it works for me and I can manage to land safely using this method I will be very happy. Usually as I am about to land is where things get crazy on me and I lose all semblance of control. Sounds like it is just me not getting the controls returned to center properly.

Edited March 21, 2022 by dburne

[Hoirtel]

39 minutes ago, dburne said:

Okay thanks much for the info. Going to give it another try this morning with the with springs method and see how I get along. Will focus on getting the stick and pedals returned to center asap once pressing the force trim button.

If it works for me and I can manage to land safely using this method I will be very happy. Usually as I am about to land is where things get crazy on me and I lose all semblance of control. Sounds like it is just me not getting the controls returned to center properly.

 

I was there too, but got the hang of it yesterday. I started with slowing down from 100 knots while trying to keep level. Bump the collective down pull back cyclic and repeat. After a while the cyclic was quite far back. Tap trim, recentre and then just finger tip controls again. Almost like "banking" all the inputs you have done previously. 

I think going into level flight is easier because the intention is to rest therefore returning to centre anyway. 

I am still using xwinds with no spring, so I haven't any problems with the pedals (third special option)

Good luck, its satisfying when you get it.

[dburne]

36 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I was there too, but got the hang of it yesterday. I started with slowing down from 100 knots while trying to keep level. Bump the collective down pull back cyclic and repeat. After a while the cyclic was quite far back. Tap trim, recentre and then just finger tip controls again. Almost like "banking" all the inputs you have done previously. 

I think going into level flight is easier because the intention is to rest therefore returning to centre anyway. 

I am still using xwinds with no spring, so I haven't any problems with the pedals (third special option)

Good luck, its satisfying when you get it.

 

Just had a decent landing using the springs option for the first time. Yeah I think I am getting it now. May take the spring out of my Crosswinds eventually as I also have the damper, kind of hate to right now as I will be going back and forth with plane.

But yeah I am feeling confident enough now I just placed an order with Monster Tech for a Virpil Collective chair mount to fit my AK Racing chair. This keeps up and I will soon be ordered a Virpil Collective to go with it lol.

[Hoirtel]

Just now, dburne said:

 

Just had a decent landing using the springs option for the first time. Yeah I think I am getting it now. May take the spring out of my Crosswinds eventually as I also have the damper, kind of hate to right now as I will be going back and forth with plane.

But yeah I am feeling confident enough now I just placed an order with Monster Tech for a Virpil Collective chair mount to fit my AK Racing chair. This keeps up and I will soon be ordered a Virpil Collective to go with it lol.

Yeah I'm sure you can use it with the spring on that special option. I actually am not keen on the dampner for the planes and slacken it off as much as possible (avoids removing it). I found that it stopped it going all the way to centre unless the spring was massively tightened or the dampner is at its lowest setting.

[dburne]

7 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Yeah I'm sure you can use it with the spring on that special option. I actually am not keen on the dampner for the planes and slacken it off as much as possible (avoids removing it). I found that it stopped it going all the way to centre unless the spring was massively tightened or the dampner is at its lowest setting.

Yeah good point I may try that.

[dburne]

Ah yes now I am getting the hang of it. After three days of utter confusion it has finally come together for me. Just had a great cold start, taxi, takeoff from runway, fly around , return and land cleanly. Many thanks to all that helped me on landing this baby!! Onwards and Upwards!!! The key for me was getting those dang controls returned to center before manipulating the chopper.

Edited March 21, 2022 by dburne

[Fakum]

41 minutes ago, dburne said:

Ah yes now I am getting the hang of it. After three days of utter confusion it has finally come together for me. Just had a great cold start, taxi, takeoff from runway, fly around , return and land cleanly. Many thanks to all that helped me on landing this baby!! Onwards and Upwards!!! The key for me was getting those dang controls returned to center before manipulating the chopper.

 

"The key for me was getting those dang controls returned to center before manipulating the chopper."

And thats what the Trimmer Reset does for you in the other chopper we fly. I see alot of chatter still about SETTING the trim, but the main issue is coming out of that set trim and returning stick back to neutral.

[scoobie]

OMG... The numerous threads about trim, previously in Mi-24 forums, now about Apache, are about the same thing.
Apparently someone in ED changed the behaviour of the force trim for spring-centered joysticks (starting with Mi-24).
I didn't know that, I didn't notice there was any announcement about it... or was there?

The old system was called "Default" (check in your Huey or Mi-8, but NOT in Mi-24):
1. Tap force trim button.
2. Your force-trimmed axes in the game get "frozen" for one second (more or less). Then all the axes "unfreeze" unconditionally.
It has worked so well for so many people, for so many years.

The new system called "Central Position Trimmer Mode", which I believe was meant to be the replacement for the former "Default":
1. Tap force trim button.
2. Your force-trimmed axes in the game get "frozen". Each of them will individually "unfreeze" only when you precisely center or cross the center position in that particular axis. For example, you may "unfreeze" pitch, but have roll stuck. Or pedals, or pitch or any combination of them.
Whoever was paid for coming up with this system should give the money back.

Contrary to that person's false belief, people don't always PERFECTLY center their joysticks. This is either for technical reasons and/or for the "heat of the action" reason where people are just too busy flying to focus on "the stupid joystick" - and they don't center precisely.
The old system never gets stuck and in case someone had the joystick slightly misaligned after pressing force trim (i.e not exactly centered), it was next to impossible to notice it because this small misaligment was added as a new joystick input a second after the trim button press. Since it was small, it wasn't noticeable, or hardly noticeable.
The new system gets people crash their Hinds, and now it can get them crash their Apaches. People turn towards "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)", because - so it seems - the SAS on Apache "waters down" the "jump" which occurs when you press the button, especially for small changes to trim, e.g. in cruise. Still - it's not a solution, there will alwawys be a "jump" in control input which folks with spring-centered joysticks cannot avoid.
Moreover, the new system must demand precision-centering, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to add small amounts of trim at all, it's inevitable. Can you see that it means it's technically a wrong system?
Count all the "Hey, my trim is bad!" threads in the Hind and Apache forums. You really think all these people are just dumb or something? No, they're not.

Oh boy...

PS. Fun fact: The "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" in Apache is what is called "Default" in Mi-24... which is of course different from "Default" in Huey or Mi-8

 

[Hoirtel]

32 minutes ago, Fakum said:

"The key for me was getting those dang controls returned to center before manipulating the chopper."

And thats what the Trimmer Reset does for you in the other chopper we fly. I see alot of chatter still about SETTING the trim, but the main issue is coming out of that set trim and returning stick back to neutral.

No the reset trimmer doesn't do this. Once you got the idea you will lose the need for a neutral reset. 

[rayrayblues]

13 minutes ago, Fakum said:

"The key for me was getting those dang controls returned to center before manipulating the chopper."

And thats what the Trimmer Reset does for you in the other chopper we fly. I see alot of chatter still about SETTING the trim, but the main issue is coming out of that set trim and returning stick back to neutral.

The best argument against a trim reset button is what happens with the Hind, Hip, Huey and especially the Ka-50.

Hit the reset button while trimmed for level flight and the bird will nose-up and stall. That's not what the reset button is for.

I only use the reset on these birds when touching down. Any leftover trim applied will make The Hind tip over because of

it's narrow main gear so resetting trim immediately after landing allows the bird to settle in and not tip over.

With the Kamov, Hip and Huey I release the trim only on final, at very low speed and have no trim applied when I touch down.

With the Apache you do a gradual retrimming on approach and by the time you land, you are almost back to center. No need for a reset button.

[imacken]

Yep, I personally can't see what use a reset button would be.  I mean why would you want that dramatic change of trim?

[dburne]

Well I am nailing my rolling landings , but now struggling with landing from a hover lol.

Oh my so much to learn...

[Hoirtel]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

Well I am nailing my rolling landings , but now struggling with landing from a hover lol.

Oh my so much to learn...

Yeah trim is only a part of getting that right! Get used to watching the v/s like a hawk....

[Swift.]

Who is saying any 'Trim Reset' needs to be sudden? It could be a smooth transition from the trimmed position to the neutral position

[scampaboy]

On 3/20/2022 at 12:15 PM, jojo said:

A thing which happened several times:

Decelerating in level flight before landing, stable flight around 60kt, FTR up to set new trim, release the control to neutral and the helicopter pitches up, I have to make large stick input forward to keep it level and make new trim…

 

See the video about the bump in the controls when pressing trim

[imacken]

4 minutes ago, Swift. said:

Who is saying any 'Trim Reset' needs to be sudden? It could be a smooth transition from the trimmed position to the neutral position

Sure,  but I don't get why anyone wold want to trim back to the neutral position anyway.  If you are in a trimmed situation, surely you just want to make minor adjustments.

[scampaboy]

21 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Maybe someone who is not experiencing issues with the current trim system can explain this procedure step by step.

Let's assume I'm flying straight and level at 120 knots and my stick is maybe 60% pushed forward and 5% to the left.  I want to take my hand off the cyclic to interact with the MPD using my mouse.  My joystick has now re-centered itself because of the springs, but the game thinks I am still holding it in position.

What is the process for getting the stick back into the correct 60% forward and 5% left position so I can "resume" controlling the aircraft in real-time?

This is what’s getting me, it’s not a trim issue it’s a loss of authority issue. 

You can trim by the book but the same as the 24’s yaw hold you can get tangled up with the rudder and the only way to get the authority back is is to trim reset or it will start spinning.

It is definitely not user error in terms of central trimmer as we are pulling the stick back to centre, if we weren’t then the controls would jump in the direction they are being pushed. Although the central trimmer mode does definitely lock you out of the controls if you don’t centre, I’ve had that in the 24 until I changed it to default. This is different it’s a loss of authority, it’s more like the situation in the 24 with the yaw stabiliser/yaw autopilot. If we were to talk about real life would they really allow an aircraft that reduces your control authority without a button to stop it in an emergency? 
In a sim game what’s the problem with having a reset button. 
 

23 minutes ago, imacken said:

Sure,  but I don't get why anyone wold want to trim back to the neutral position anyway.  If you are in a trimmed situation, surely you just want to make minor adjustments.

It’s not trimming back to a neutral position it’s a way to regain control authority after you have lost authority because the way the trim is implemented in the sim 

[imacken]

17 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

It’s not trimming back to a neutral position it’s a way to regain control authority after you have lost authority because the way the trim is implemented in the sim 

I was replying to @Swift. who did want it to go to the neutral position in a reset.