Force Trim

[Floyd1212]

OK, so hear me out on this possible solution that doesn't kill immersion in the sim by having to micro-manage your joystick in small increments to "undo" the trim back to a point where it matches your actual stick position, but would still be intuitive to use.  This would obviously require some work on ED's side to implement...

If you have a spring-centered joystick, you would select the "Central Position Trimmer Mode" from the Options menu.

Fly around like normal, and when you want to hold a trimmed position you hit the "Trim" button on your stick.  You look down at the virtual stick rendered in the game and it stays in the "trimmed" position as you let your joystick recenter itself.  When your joystick is back centered, a "ghost" image of the flight stick is shown in the centered position in game, in addition to the normal rendered stick in the previously "trimmed" position. (Think of a racing game where you can race against a "ghost car" that represents your previous lap record.)

Now you can nudge the stick left/right/up/down to make adjustments to your attitude, and you see both the "trimmed" stick and the "ghost" stick moving in unison in the game.

When you are ready to resume flying the helo like normal, you look down at the stick in the game and you press and hold a new button called "reposition stick".  The ghost stick in the game turns red, and as long as you have that button held down any movement of the joystick is ignored for control purposes, but the ghost stick still follows the movement of your joystick.  Now you move the red ghost stick toward the previously trimmed position, and when the alignment is close, you release the "reposition stick" button and the ghost stick goes away and your controls are back in sync with the virtual world.  You might have a slight reaction of the helo if you didn't line it up very well, but if you're in the general ballpark, and are expecting the brief disruption, I think it would be very manageable.

What do you think?  A good compromise for dealing with the spring-centered real world we live in?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Floyd1212

[lefty1117]

 Maybe the alt hold will help when it's in but I think they're going to need to add a bit more forgiving parameters for the holds to take effect.  I don't remember the KA50 being so twitchy at low speeds.

[Hoirtel]

1 hour ago, Floyd1212 said:

OK, so hear me out on this possible solution that doesn't kill immersion in the sim by having to micro-manage your joystick in small increments to "undo" the trim back to a point where it matches your actual stick position, but would still be intuitive to use.  This would obviously require some work on ED's side to implement...

If you have a spring-centered joystick, you would select the "Central Position Trimmer Mode" from the Options menu.

Fly around like normal and when you want to hold a trimmed position you hit the "Trim" button on your stick.  You look down at the virtual stick rendered in the game and it stays in the "trimmed" position as you let your joystick recenter itself.  When your joystick is back centered, a "ghost" image of the flight stick is shown in the centered position in game, in addition to the normal rendered stick in the previously "trimmed" position. (Think of a racing game where you can race against a "ghost car" that represents your previous lap record.)

Now you can nudge the stick left/right/up/down to make adjustments to your attitude, and you see both the "trimmed" stick and the "ghost" stick moving in unison in the game.

When you are ready to resume flying the helo like normal, you look down at the stick in the game and you press and hold a new button called "reposition stick".  The ghost stick in the game turns red, and as long as you have that button held down any movement of the joystick is ignored for control purposes, but the ghost stick still follows the movement of your joystick.  Now you move the red ghost stick toward the previously trimmed position, and when the alignment is close, you release the "reposition stick" button and the ghost stick goes away and your controls are back in sync with the virtual world.  You might have a slight reaction of the helo if you didn't line it up very well, but if you're in the general ballpark, and are expecting the brief disruption, I think it would be very manageable.

What do you think?  A good compromise for dealing with the spring-centered real world we live in?

Now I have crossed over from not understanding to understanding, I sort of get what you mean but I think you are looking at it backwards.

Rather than the ghost stick in the cockpit, once you have centred your actual stick, it would be more accurate to lean your own stick on it's mount(or desk) to the same place as the trimmed stick in game. That's more how it's represented. Still centred in its base but matching the angle of the trimmed stick. Not practical or necessary at all but a better way of thinking about it.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Hoirtel

[rayrayblues]

1 hour ago, scampaboy said:

This is what’s getting me, it’s not a trim issue it’s a loss of authority issue. 

You can trim by the book but the same as the 24’s yaw hold you can get tangled up with the rudder and the only way to get the authority back is is to trim reset or it will start spinning.

 

If you are losing authority, you're doing something wrong.

The yaw AP in the 24 is not a trimmer. It is a part of the autopilot.

Resetting trim does not affect the yaw AP. There is a separate button to turn off the AP.

If you are getting tangled up, you're doing something wrong.

 

25 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

OK, so hear me out on this possible solution that doesn't kill immersion in the sim by having to micro-manage your joystick in small increments to "undo" the trim back to a point where it matches your actual stick position but would still be intuitive to use.  This would obviously require some work on ED's side to implement...

If you have a spring-centered joystick, you would select the "Central Position Trimmer Mode" from the Options menu.

Fly around like normal and when you want to hold a trimmed position you hit the "Trim" button on your stick.  You look down at the virtual stick rendered in the game and it stays in the "trimmed" position as you let your joystick recenter itself.  When your joystick is back centered, a "ghost" image of the flight stick is shown in the centered position in game, in addition to the normal rendered stick in the previously "trimmed" position. (Think of a racing game where you can race against a "ghost car" that represents your previous lap record.)

Now you can nudge the stick left/right/up/down to make adjustments to your attitude, and you see both the "trimmed" stick and the "ghost" stick moving in unison in the game.

When you are ready to resume flying the helo like normal, you look down at the stick in the game and you press and hold a new button called "reposition stick".  The ghost stick in the game turns red, and as long as you have that button held down any movement of the joystick is ignored for control purposes, but the ghost stick still follows the movement of your joystick.  Now you move the red ghost stick toward the previously trimmed position, and when the alignment is close, you release the "reposition stick" button and the ghost stick goes away and your controls are back in sync with the virtual world.  You might have a slight reaction of the helo if you didn't line it up very well, but if you're in the general ballpark, and are expecting the brief disruption, I think it would be very manageable.

What do you think?  A good compromise for dealing with the spring-centered real world we live in?

 

 Do you even know how a spring centered joystick works?

 

Bottom Line: 

DCS is a sim, not an arcade game.  The real bird doesn't have a reset button.   ED is not going to make one.   Deal with it!

Edited March 21, 2022 by rayrayblues
additional info

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, imacken said:

Sure,  but I don't get why anyone wold want to trim back to the neutral position anyway.  If you are in a trimmed situation, surely you just want to make minor adjustments.

Muscle memory. Avoiding saturating the control throw with trim neutralisation input.

[scampaboy]

14 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

 

If you are losing authority, you're doing something wrong.

The yaw AP in the 24 is not a trimmer. It is a part of the autopilot.

If you are getting tangled up, you're doing something wrong.

 The yaw autopilot takes control of the pedals and takes away your authority, which is exactly the same situation 4mins50. 
if entering that situation is doing something wrong why have they programmed in a way to get out of it? 

[dburne]

Ok so now I have done a nice landing from hover. I am getting there - baby steps I tell ya baby steps.

[rayrayblues]

15 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

 The yaw autopilot takes control of the pedals and takes away your authority, which is exactly the same situation 4mins50. 
if entering that situation is doing something wrong why have they programmed in a way to get out of it? 

He was demonstrating the "something wrong." Trying to turn with stick only. When yaw AP is on you must use the pedals to turn.

I have been flying the 24 since EA and I use the yaw AP all the time. I don't get "Tangled Up" because I use it correctly.

Turning without pedals will tangle up the trim settings and so resetting trim fixes it. He must have also had rudder trim checked in special settings.

He was showing us how to get out of a bad situation, that you shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.

As I said above, "if you're getting tangled up, you're doing something wrong.

[scampaboy]

28 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

He was demonstrating the "something wrong." Trying to turn with stick only. When yaw AP is on you must use the pedals to turn.

I have been flying the 24 since EA and I use the yaw AP all the time. I don't get "Tangled Up" because I use it correctly.

Turning without pedals will tangle up the trim settings and so resetting trim fixes it. He must have also had rudder trim checked in special settings.

 

I’ve flown the hind since early access myself.
Resetting trim fixes a situation that comes about because of how the autopilot yaw is implemented with the little rudder pedal buttons on the real aircraft. Whether that issue is brought about by pilot error is irrelevant it has the ability to recover from it. The real aircraft would not enter that state anyway so it doesn’t matter if the real aircraft has trim reset or not. 
With the hind there is a problem and there is a mechanism to solve it. With the apache there is a problem and no mechanism. 
If the realism of having a reset button when there isn’t one on the real aircraft upsets you or that you have no problems with how the trim is implemented then just don’t bind the button
 

Edited March 21, 2022 by scampaboy

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, rayrayblues said:

Do you even know how a spring centered joystick works?

I think if you re-read what I was describing as a solution, and tried harder to comprehend it, you would see that I do understand how these magical devices work.

 

1 hour ago, rayrayblues said:

DCS is a sim, not an arcade game.  The real bird doesn't have a reset button.   ED is not going to make one.   Deal with it!

The real bird doesn't have a disconnect with where you think the cyclic is positioned vs where it is actually positioned. 

[Hiob]

Sometimes you have to account for the shortcomings (imperfect perception, imperfect inputs e.g.) of a simulation vs. the real thing to make it accessible.

ED did that in the past, with different modules and even in the Apache. I don’t see how this option would limit the experience for anyone who don’t want to use it.

This „it’s not faithful to reality“ mantra is a dead end.

[schmiefel]

3 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

The real bird doesn't have a disconnect with where you think the cyclic is positioned vs where it is actually positioned. 

That's the most important point in the whole debate. I really would like to know how many of those using a FFB system complain about the trim system. But if you look at what's really available with a true FFB simulation than I think ED has to focus on the vast majority with much simpler systems, mostly designed for use in planes that work quite different, when it comes to trimming.

I am struggling too with trim, and actually I try to work around of it and get a taste how to use it the way it suits me best. Its up to ED how the experience could be improved further without loosing the sim focus.

[supanova]

Anyone using an MS Sidewinder FFB stick?

Even with the FFB stick option selected the cyclic is returning to an offset right neutral position when releasing trim.

I don't know if it just doesn't work, if the stick FFB isn't working properly, I'm doing something wrong, or all of the above.

[macedk]

OK OK OK ....

Me thinks we need to learn this bird, it is not like the others. 

The trim were you press and let go and it stays at that position, there might be a small thing to correct there. 

But if this bird does not have a "reset to zero" magic button ....deal with it. 

Real world: if dcs sales plummet then hmm tough. 

 Do I have to trim more than other times .. yes ..so be it. 

You flying with a cp/g that can not take controls while you work your magic skills ....
Get better, so sorry but like me you have just enterred the most realistic way of a combat helicopter (Western). 

If after 6 moths...then you are not good enough or you are

You wanted real ... you got it AGAIN ..Cope or Choke .  

[Steel Jaw]

Frankly, berating people for wanting a trim reset is silly...most of us have self centering hardware that doesn't work well with rotory wing trimming.

[Hiob]

24 minutes ago, macedk said:

OK OK OK ....

Me thinks we need to learn this bird, it is not like the others. 

The trim were you press and let go and it stays at that position, there might be a small thing to correct there. 

But if this bird does not have a "reset to zero" magic button ....deal with it. 

Real world: if dcs sales plummet then hmm tough. 

 Do I have to trim more than other times .. yes ..so be it. 

You flying with a cp/g that can not take controls while you work your magic skills ....
Get better, so sorry but like me you have just enterred the most realistic way of a combat helicopter (Western). 

If after 6 moths...then you are not good enough or you are

You wanted real ... you got it AGAIN ..Cope or Choke .  

[jojo]

Personally, after a few hours, I don’t see the need for a trim reset. But I don’t mind if you get it.

What we need the most IMHO is the full set of flight assistance modes:
- Hover hold
- Heading hold
- Ground speed hold
- Proper functions of ATT Hold.

These will make it much more stable and a better weapon platform.

[Floyd1212]

These arguments about what is "real" or not in the aircraft have no weight here.  The current make-believe method of un-trimming your helo back to a hover is also not real.

Could we all get used to it? Sure.  Could we all become proficient in jockeying our cyclic back and forth to "unwind" the previous trim settings? Probably.

But I think with some effort put into it, there could be a better way, or a combination of ways...

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Floyd1212

[tusler]

Forget all the trim reset stuff and just give us auto hover or a stabilized hover mode and life will be good again like in the KA-50 or the gazelle

 

[Hoirtel]

I'm ok with a reset if people really want it, but I have realised now that it is not required. However as a previous user of reset I didn't know that this wasn't a real control and I think it has resulted in some negative training for me as I would use this after incorrectly using the force trim (hind).  The 64, and this thread, has pushed me to learn how to do the trim realistically, with a spring stick. 

[tusler]

I have a question, I trimmed the cyclic to 50 knots, my pedals don't have springs so I have them set as springless, I have 16 Hellfires on the bird with full fuel,

I have my collective set so I am at 800 feet. With my hands off the cyclic and using only minor pedal movements I keep it on a heading. the thing hunts up and down, the speed fluctuates by like 10 knots either way and the altitude goes up a 100 then back down a 100, with me never touching the cyclic or the collective. I flew quite a bit in a CH-53 and it never hunted like that .Is that really how Apache's fly?

[Lurker]

8 hours ago, supanova said:

Anyone using an MS Sidewinder FFB stick?

Even with the FFB stick option selected the cyclic is returning to an offset right neutral position when releasing trim.

I don't know if it just doesn't work, if the stick FFB isn't working properly, I'm doing something wrong, or all of the above.

I have an MSFBB2, waiting for the 14 day trial so I can try out the Apache. I will then decide if I am going to buy it immediately, wait for issues to be fixed, or skip it entirely. 

[Hoirtel]

31 minutes ago, tusler said:

I have a question, I trimmed the cyclic to 50 knots, my pedals don't have springs so I have them set as springless, I have 16 Hellfires on the bird with full fuel,

I have my collective set so I am at 800 feet. With my hands off the cyclic and using only minor pedal movements I keep it on a heading. the thing hunts up and down, the speed fluctuates by like 10 knots either way and the altitude goes up a 100 then back down a 100, with me never touching the cyclic or the collective. I flew quite a bit in a CH-53 and it never hunted like that .Is that really how Apache's fly?

Can't say I've definitely done that scenario but not experienced what you are seeing. I find it quite stable. Perhaps there is turbulence in the mission? Why don't you try with different loadouts and with different weather. 

[Eagles787]

16 hours ago, scoobie said:

OMG... The numerous threads about trim, previously in Mi-24 forums, now about Apache, are about the same thing.
Apparently someone in ED changed the behaviour of the force trim for spring-centered joysticks (starting with Mi-24).
I didn't know that, I didn't notice there was any announcement about it... or was there?

The old system was called "Default" (check in your Huey or Mi-8, but NOT in Mi-24):
1. Tap force trim button.
2. Your force-trimmed axes in the game get "frozen" for one second (more or less). Then all the axes "unfreeze" unconditionally.
It has worked so well for so many people, for so many years.

The new system called "Central Position Trimmer Mode", which I believe was meant to be the replacement for the former "Default":
1. Tap force trim button.
2. Your force-trimmed axes in the game get "frozen". Each of them will individually "unfreeze" only when you precisely center or cross the center position in that particular axis. For example, you may "unfreeze" pitch, but have roll stuck. Or pedals, or pitch or any combination of them.
Whoever was paid for coming up with this system should give the money back.

Contrary to that person's false belief, people don't always PERFECTLY center their joysticks. This is either for technical reasons and/or for the "heat of the action" reason where people are just too busy flying to focus on "the stupid joystick" - and they don't center precisely.
The old system never gets stuck and in case someone had the joystick slightly misaligned after pressing force trim (i.e not exactly centered), it was next to impossible to notice it because this small misaligment was added as a new joystick input a second after the trim button press. Since it was small, it wasn't noticeable, or hardly noticeable.
The new system gets people crash their Hinds, and now it can get them crash their Apaches. People turn towards "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)", because - so it seems - the SAS on Apache "waters down" the "jump" which occurs when you press the button, especially for small changes to trim, e.g. in cruise. Still - it's not a solution, there will alwawys be a "jump" in control input which folks with spring-centered joysticks cannot avoid.
Moreover, the new system must demand precision-centering, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to add small amounts of trim at all, it's inevitable. Can you see that it means it's technically a wrong system?
Count all the "Hey, my trim is bad!" threads in the Hind and Apache forums. You really think all these people are just dumb or something? No, they're not.

Oh boy...

PS. Fun fact: The "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)" in Apache is what is called "Default" in Mi-24... which is of course different from "Default" in Huey or Mi-8

 

Finally the first post that accurately describes the problem with the current implemented trim systems. I'm sure 99% of us fly with a spring centered cyclic due to a lack of FFB hardware. Neither the Central Position Trim or Instant Trim are a good solution right now and that's why so many people struggle with it. The instant trim is the most flawed since it's nearly impossible to return all three axis instantly back to neutral the moment you press the trim button. The central trim is a good concept, but as Scoobie rightfully pointed out, it has the problem that centering all your three axis can be difficult and you loose aircraft control until you do. Right now all three of your axis need to be returned to or cross their central position to unfreeze the axis and give you control of the aircraft back. When you are manipulating the controls this can be quite hard to do. I use a soft centering Virpil stick with an extension and it's not easy to find the exact central point. I can try to let go of the stick but then the stick moves through the central point and it unfreezes the axis but now immediately picks up the ongoing motion of the free stick. Besides having to let go of the stick during high energy workloads like combat maneuvering makes no sense.

The most simple solution is to combine the new Central Position trim with a time limit like the old Default system. When you hit the trim button, it should store your new trim position and unfreeze the axis as soon as it detects either the center position of your stick or when the time limit is passed. With this system even when your controls are not perfectly centered after you trim, you get the control of your aircraft back and any offset from the center position would only cause a little input that you would instinctively correct. The time limit could be a parameter in the special menu that you can set from 0.1 to 2s for example. I think this is the best way we can trim helicopters with a centering spring.

Having a center trim button doesn't really help during flight and would only have a use to restore your trims to it's neutral position after a flight so to start from a known trim position.

Let's hope ED looks into this trim issue and how it can be made better since it's causing a lot of problems for people, also on the Hind. Trimming in a real helicopter is very intuitive, and it should be the same experience in the sim, even though we use spring centered sticks. If you have to fight your aircraft to get it trimmed, then the trim system is not right.

[scampaboy]

4 minutes ago, Eagles787 said:

Finally the first post that accurately describes the problem with the current implemented trim systems. I'm sure 99% of us fly with a spring centered cyclic due to a lack of FFB hardware. Neither the Central Position Trim or Instant Trim are a good solution right now and that's why so many people struggle with it. The instant trim is the most flawed since it's nearly impossible to return all three axis instantly back to neutral the moment you press the trim button. The central trim is a good concept, but as Scoobie rightfully pointed out, it has the problem that centering all your three axis can be difficult and you loose aircraft control until you do. Right now all three of your axis need to be returned to or cross their central position to unfreeze the axis and give you control of the aircraft back. When you are manipulating the controls this can be quite hard to do. I use a soft centering Virpil stick with an extension and it's not easy to find the exact central point. I can try to let go of the stick but then the stick moves through the central point and it unfreezes the axis but now immediately picks up the ongoing motion of the free stick. Besides having to let go of the stick during high energy workloads like combat maneuvering makes no sense.

The most simple solution is to combine the new Central Position trim with a time limit like the old Default system. When you hit the trim button, it should store your new trim position and unfreeze the axis as soon as it detects either the center position of your stick or when the time limit is passed. With this system even when your controls are not perfectly centered after you trim, you get the control of your aircraft back and any offset from the center position would only cause a little input that you would instinctively correct. The time limit could be a parameter in the special menu that you can set from 0.1 to 2s for example. I think this is the best way we can trim helicopters with a centering spring.

Having a center trim button doesn't really help during flight and would only have a use to restore your trims to it's neutral position after a flight so to start from a known trim position.

Let's hope ED looks into this trim issue and how it can be made better since it's causing a lot of problems for people, also on the Hind. Trimming in a real helicopter is very intuitive, and it should be the same experience in the sim, even though we use spring centered sticks. If you have to fight your aircraft to get it trimmed, then the trim system is not right.

There’s been lots of posts that accurately describe the problem in this thread.