Force Trim

[Hoirtel]

13 minutes ago, Eagles787 said:

Finally the first post that accurately describes the problem with the current implemented trim systems. I'm sure 99% of us fly with a spring centered cyclic due to a lack of FFB hardware. Neither the Central Position Trim or Instant Trim are a good solution right now and that's why so many people struggle with it. The instant trim is the most flawed since it's nearly impossible to return all three axis instantly back to neutral the moment you press the trim button. The central trim is a good concept, but as Scoobie rightfully pointed out, it has the problem that centering all your three axis can be difficult and you loose aircraft control until you do. Right now all three of your axis need to be returned to or cross their central position to unfreeze the axis and give you control of the aircraft back. When you are manipulating the controls this can be quite hard to do. I use a soft centering Virpil stick with an extension and it's not easy to find the exact central point. I can try to let go of the stick but then the stick moves through the central point and it unfreezes the axis but now immediately picks up the ongoing motion of the free stick. Besides having to let go of the stick during high energy workloads like combat maneuvering makes no sense.

The most simple solution is to combine the new Central Position trim with a time limit like the old Default system. When you hit the trim button, it should store your new trim position and unfreeze the axis as soon as it detects either the center position of your stick or when the time limit is passed. With this system even when your controls are not perfectly centered after you trim, you get the control of your aircraft back and any offset from the center position would only cause a little input that you would instinctively correct. The time limit could be a parameter in the special menu that you can set from 0.1 to 2s for example. I think this is the best way we can trim helicopters with a centering spring.

Having a center trim button doesn't really help during flight and would only have a use to restore your trims to it's neutral position after a flight so to start from a known trim position.

Let's hope ED looks into this trim issue and how it can be made better since it's causing a lot of problems for people, also on the Hind. Trimming in a real helicopter is very intuitive, and it should be the same experience in the sim, even though we use spring centered sticks. If you have to fight your aircraft to get it trimmed, then the trim system is not right.

Just realised when reading your post how important a deadzone might be to the central trimmer option. I use 2 but if its 0 I guess that would make it harder for the system to know. Also you say about trimming when combat manoeuvring. Do not do this. At least to start with. Only trim to a status that you intend to maintain, or a slowly changing status (like when slowing down) Practice trimming and returning to centre during a level slow down. From trimmed forward flight don't over do it to begin with, get right down to lower speed and then do it. Its actually ideal because rather than then making micro-corrections with your actual stick pulled back, you now do it finger tip from central and get the full benefit of your curves (if you haave any applied)

Also the instant trim shouldn't be default. It is like like you say impossible to catch it before it lurches. I guess ED felt it preferable to one that potentially didn't have an immediate response.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hoirtel

[scampaboy]

4 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Just realised when reading your post how important a deadzone might be to the central trimmer option. I use 2 but if its 0 I guess that would make it harder for the system to know. Also you say about trimming when combat manoeuvring. Do not do this. At least to start with. Only trim to a status that you intend to maintain, or a slowly changing status (like when slowing down) Practice trimming and returning to centre during a level slow down. From trimmed forward flight don't over do it to begin with, get right down to lower speed and then do it. Its actually ideal because rather than then making micro-corrections with your actual stick pulled back, you now do it finger tip from central and get the full benefit of your curves (if you haave any applied)

Also the instant trim shouldn't be default. It is like like you say impossible to catch it before it lurches. I guess ED felt it preferable to one that potentially didn't have an immediate response.

 

If you look at that video I made, I set dead zones to see if it made a difference and it didn’t at all 

[Hoirtel]

4 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

If you look at that video I made, I set dead zones to see if it made a difference and it didn’t at all 

Don't think I have seen it, which page is it on?

EDIT: Oh yeah I have seen it, I'll have another look.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hoirtel

[Fakum]

17 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

No the reset trimmer doesn't do this. Once you got the idea you will lose the need for a neutral reset. 

Im sorry, but when I hit "Trimmer Reset" in the BlackShark, MI-8 and Huey, my collective goes to dead nuts back to centered no matter what I have it trimmed at prior. In other words, it goes back to the same neutral position it was in when I hopped in the pit. I have no idea why you think it doesnt?

[Fakum]

17 hours ago, scampaboy said:

See the video about the bump in the controls when pressing trim

Yeah,, I watched that,,, works great for coming in nice and smooth. I commented in there to show us how to go from cruising along at 125 knts and suddenly getting wacked by enemy fire and you gotta bank hard left 90 degrees low and get behind cover real quick in a near hover state! Show me that with tapping the Trimmer and  without Trimmer reset and I will start buying into the lack of a need for Trimmer Reset! I can do the above in the Black Shark and Huey without even thinking about it with trimmer reset.

[Hoirtel]

2 minutes ago, Fakum said:

Im sorry, but when I hit "Trimmer Reset" in the BlackShark, MI-8 and Huey, my collective goes to dead nuts back to centered no matter what I have it trimmed at prior. In other words, it goes back to the same neutral position it was in when I hopped in the pit. I have no idea why you think it doesnt?

I've just re-read that post. It does do what you say of course. I may have misread it.. I think may have been getting at neutral position isn't actually that useful. Hover is back and left (westen), forward is forward etc etc

[Eagles787]

25 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Just realised when reading your post how important a deadzone might be to the central trimmer option. I use 2 but if its 0 I guess that would make it harder for the system to know. Also you say about trimming when combat manoeuvring. Do not do this. At least to start with. Only trim to a status that you intend to maintain, or a slowly changing status (like when slowing down) Practice trimming and returning to centre during a level slow down. From trimmed forward flight don't over do it to begin with, get right down to lower speed and then do it. Its actually ideal because rather than then making micro-corrections with your actual stick pulled back, you now do it finger tip from central and get the full benefit of your curves (if you haave any applied)

Also the instant trim shouldn't be default. It is like like you say impossible to catch it before it lurches. I guess ED felt it preferable to one that potentially didn't have an immediate response.

 

Having a deadzone would help in catching the central position after you trim to unfreeze your axis, but hovering a helicopter takes very small control inputs and having a larger deadzone would make this much harder. I personally use 0 deadzone.

This is a combat helicopter, one moment you could be in a hover, the next you could be under fire and needing evasive action. Being able to unload control forces with trim quickly is of essence in flying a helicopter. It is much easier to keep control of your aircraft when you trim regularly during transitions.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Eagles787

[Hoirtel]

26 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

If you look at that video I made, I set dead zones to see if it made a difference and it didn’t at all 

Yeah ok, you are referring to the bumps. Can't say I have seen that, but I will look out for it now and it definitely hasn't affected my trimming. When you do go to take off those minor bumps (central position only) did not create the out of control position. When you trim there is an immediate right pedal input which is what sets you out of control.

The odd offset at the load-in is covered by wags in his launch day video

6 minutes ago, Eagles787 said:

Having a deadzone would help in catching the central position after you trim to unfreeze your axis, but hovering a helicopter takes very small control inputs and having a larger deadzone would make this much harder. I personally use 0 deadzone.

This is a combat helicopter, one moment you could be in a hover, the next you could be under fire and needing evasive action. Being able to unload control forces with trim quickly is of essence in flying a helicopter. It is much easier to keep control of your aircraft when you trim regularly during transitions.

 

Yes - deadzone balance is probably important. 2 is really quite small (and followed wags setup).  Yes to everything about a combat helicopter and needing to be quickly evasive, but learn to walk before running.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hoirtel

[Fakum]

12 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I've just re-read that post. It does do what you say of course. I may have misread it.. I think may have been getting at neutral position isn't actually that useful. Hover is back and left (westen), forward is forward etc etc

I hear what your saying, but its not all about just trying to come in for a casual landing or smoothing out to a hover. I dont see much discussion about instances when your moving along fast and need to make quick and aggressive maneuvers. I have tried to make aggressive moves while the stick is set pretty far forward in trim because your cruising along at 125 knts. Its not pretty, and you dont have time to gently keep tapping the trimmer to make corrections,, it gets out of control real fast! Again, high speed maneuvering is what im talking about, not, OH LOOK ,, theres a FARP over there, lets float in there and land.

[Hoirtel]

Just now, Fakum said:

I hear what your saying, but its not all about just trying to come in for a casual landing or smoothing out to a hover. I dont see much discussion about instances when your moving along fast and need to make quick and aggressive maneuvers. I have tried to make aggressive moves while the stick is set pretty far forward in trim because your cruising along at 125 knts. Its not pretty, and you dont have time to gently keep tapping the trimmer to make corrections,, it gets out of control real fast! Again, high speed maneuvering is what im talking about, not, OH LOOK ,, theres a FARP over there, lets float in there and land.

Walk before running

[Supmua]

I think I would prefer the FFB trim option with timed release to the center.  Due to long extension on my joystick it can take awhile for the stick to spring back to the center for me to regain control of the cyclic, and centered trim mode just doesn’t quite feel natural since I often have to manually yank the stick back to center.
 

Right now it’s better for me not to trim at all and just use the lowest spring tension on my stick, but flying other aircrafts such as jets with minimal stick tension isn’t my thing.  May be ED could give us another trim option?

 

edit: now if I use Realsimulator FSSB base, the centered trim works perfectly since it goes right back to the center very quickly.  Funny how the joystick base made for jets is working better right now. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Supmua

[Eagles787]

23 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Yes to everything about a combat helicopter and needing to be quickly evasive, but learn to walk before running.

 

Well my post was in response to Scoobie's where he is highlighting the biggest problem with the implementation of the Central Position Trimmer. Being locked out of your controls due to not being able to quickly find the exact center of your stick is what's causing most of the out of control issues when you need to trim quickly like in combat flying. For that reason a combination of the old Default trim mode and the Central Position Trimmer would make trimming much easier as you would not be locked out of your controls for more than 1s or whatever value you give it if you can't return your inputs to exactly the center position. And being not exactly centered on your cyclic is much easier to deal with when your axis unfreezes than having no control at all or not trimming due to this current limitation.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Eagles787

[Fakum]

12 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Walk before running

I have been flying the Blackshark since it came out, and the Huey,, at what point would you consider the prompt evasive maneuvers I have been successfully doing the end of the walking phase?

 

[Eagles787]

12 minutes ago, Supmua said:

I think I would prefer the FFB trim option with timed release to the center.  Due to long extension on my joystick it can take awhile for the stick to spring back to the center for me to regain control of the cyclic, and centered trim mode just doesn’t quite feel natural since I often have to manually yank the stick back to center.
 

If you add a timed release to the "Instant Trim" mode, then we are back to the "Default" trim mode we had in the past and was indeed much easier to work with. If on top now you also unfreeze the axis as soon as it senses the control input is centered, the "Center Position Trimmer", than we probably have the best trim system for a centering spring input device.

You press the trim button, it holds your inputs to keep the aircraft in that attitude, you return your controls to (near) central position, as soon as it senses either your center position OR when the time delay is finished, you get control back. Seems to be the most intuitive solution to me. Add on top a reset trim button for instant neutral trim for the pilots that like to use that to get quickly in a near trim condition for hover and we are good to go.

Right now all current trim options are missing the ball one way or the other.

[Hoirtel]

2 minutes ago, Eagles787 said:

If you add a timed release to the "Instant Trim" mode, then we are back to the "Default" trim mode we had in the past and was indeed much easier to work with. If on top now you also unfreeze the axis as soon as it senses the control input is centered, the "Center Position Trimmer", than we probably have the best trim system for a centering spring input device.

You press the trim button, it holds your inputs to keep the aircraft in that attitude, you return your controls to (near) central position, as soon as it senses either your center position OR when the time delay is finished, you get control back. Seems to be the most intuitive solution to me. Add on top a reset trim button for instant neutral trim for the pilots that like to use that to get quickly in a near trim condition for hover and we are good to go.

Right now all current trim options are missing the ball one way or the other.

But if you had a timed release, and you were not in center, wouldn't your controls instantly spring to a position that you had not trimmed for? It probably takes me less than a second to center, and you don't need to remain in center either.

[Eagles787]

1 minute ago, Hoirtel said:

But if you had a timed release, and you were not in center, wouldn't your controls instantly spring to a position that you had not trimmed for? It probably takes me less than a second to center, and you don't need to remain in center either.

That's why it's nice to have a combination of the timed release together with sensing the central position. Your control axis would release based on whatever comes first. If you manage to recenter your controls within the timed release, you would get control back immediately. If because you are flying hard and you cannot find the exact center position or don't want to let go of the stick to find it, the timed release will give you control back. As long as you are near the center position at the timed release this would only give a small control input relative to the new trim position it stored the moment you pressed the trim button.

[Hoirtel]

2 minutes ago, Eagles787 said:

That's why it's nice to have a combination of the timed release together with sensing the central position. Your control axis would release based on whatever comes first. If you manage to recenter your controls within the timed release, you would get control back immediately. If because you are flying hard and you cannot find the exact center position or don't want to let go of the stick to find it, the timed release will give you control back. As long as you are near the center position at the timed release this would only give a small control input relative to the new trim position it stored the moment you pressed the trim button.

I can't see that if you are "flying hard" and don't want to recenter the controls you would need to trim at all. You are describing trimming for a highly temporary and transitional scenario.... You would have trimmed prior to the manoeuvre and be looking to trim again after. 

[Eagles787]

20 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I can't see that if you are "flying hard" and don't want to recenter the controls you would need to trim at all. You are describing trimming for a highly temporary and transitional scenario.... You would have trimmed prior to the manoeuvre and be looking to trim again after. 

You don't wait to trim until you are too far away from the trimmed condition you were in before. You trim during transitions to not having to fight your control forces during transitions. Once you are in a new steady state you finetune your trim. When you accelerate from hover to 120kts you are not going to fight your cyclic all the way till you reach that speed, you trim during the acceleration.

In the end it's up to you if you want to hit that trim button or not during maneuvering. The problem right now with the Central Trimmer Mode is that it can lock you out of control if you do trim and can't find the exact central position of your stick because you are 1 or 2 degrees off center. On the Apache where also the rudder is trimmed, finding the exact center position of 3 axis at the same time can be quite difficult. Adding the timed release just makes sure you get control back of the aircraft after a certain pre-set time. That's all, it doesn't change how people want to trim or not trim, it just avoids the frozen controls situation when you do decide to trim.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Eagles787

[JTF-191 Scooter]

I want to figure this out badly. When I am on the ground and I move the stick and rudder, hit UP, the stick and rudder shows a new center. I let the stick, HOTAS Warthog, center and hit UP again and it seems to reset, on the ground. In flight, no such thing. I have had the stick and rudder center way to the left and let the HOTAS recenter and hit UP and nothing.

I am so frustrated because I just cannot figure out what I am doing. I have watched all the videos and I really suck at flying this thing. In the Huey, Mi-24, Ka-50, Mi-8, I am rock solid. I can't even fly this one straight. Is it really that different than every other helo?

I guess I am just crying like a baby here. I will keep at it.

P.S. I can hit Down and I don't know if that one even works.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by JTF-191 Scooter

[Hoirtel]

4 minutes ago, JTF-191 Scooter said:

I want to figure this out badly. When I am on the ground and I move the stick and rudder, hit UP, the stick and rudder shows a new center. I let the stick, HOTAS Warthog, center and hit UP again and it seems to reset, on the ground. In flight, no such thing. I have had the stick and rudder center way to the left and let the HOTAS recenter and hit UP and nothing.

I am so frustrated because I just cannot figure out what I am doing. I have watched all the videos and I really suck at flying this thing. In the Huey, Mi-24, Ka-50, Mi-8, I am rock solid. I can't even fly this one straight. Is it really that different than every other helo?

I guess I am just crying like a baby here. I will keep at it.

P.S. I can hit Down and I don't know if that one even works.

 

 

Which special option mode?

[Hiob]

9 minutes ago, JTF-191 Scooter said:

I want to figure this out badly. When I am on the ground and I move the stick and rudder, hit UP, the stick and rudder shows a new center. I let the stick, HOTAS Warthog, center and hit UP again and it seems to reset, on the ground. In flight, no such thing. I have had the stick and rudder center way to the left and let the HOTAS recenter and hit UP and nothing.

I am so frustrated because I just cannot figure out what I am doing. I have watched all the videos and I really suck at flying this thing. In the Huey, Mi-24, Ka-50, Mi-8, I am rock solid. I can't even fly this one straight. Is it really that different than every other helo?

I guess I am just crying like a baby here. I will keep at it.

P.S. I can hit Down and I don't know if that one even works.

 

 

Which Trimmer modes (referring to the special options tab in the settings) are you using in the MI-8?

What exact physical inputs are you using? (Joysticj - spring-centered or FFB; Pedals - spring-centered, springless or FFB)?

Assuming you have a pretty standard setup with a spring centered Joystick and non-FFB pedals, try the following:

For Pitch/Roll (aka Stick): "Central Position Trimmer Mode"

For Pedals: "Without Spring or FFB".....

with the latter, your ingame pedals will always be in the same state as your physical inputs are. Be it self-centered or not. But you have always full control of your yaw-input.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hiob

[JTF-191 Scooter]

For all the other helos, I have them as default. I don't even have curves set. For my HOTAS, it is just a stock Warthog. I have no idea what a "springless" stick would be. I am assuming it would flop if one let it go. In a real helo, if one lays the stick to one side will it stay there or will it come back to center? I have seen those pilots move the stick during wipeout and they can move it with there pinkies if they want.  I know there is a mod one can do for the Warthog by removing that big center spring. For the Apache trimmer mode I use the central trimmer position. My Pedals are VKB Mk-IVs. They are very precise.

I have read all of this thread and especially like the post that shows equations close to time travel!! I am just joining in on the sadness. I have to say I would be very hesitant to jump in a helo that does have a trimmer reset. I can't wrap my head around physically moving the stick and rudder to center to manually reset the trim in flight. I have crashed a few times doing that. The controls have been locked to one position in many cases as well.

 

 

[Hoirtel]

11 minutes ago, JTF-191 Scooter said:

For all the other helos, I have them as default. I don't even have curves set. For my HOTAS, it is just a stock Warthog. I have no idea what a "springless" stick would be. I am assuming it would flop if one let it go. In a real helo, if one lays the stick to one side will it stay there or will it come back to center? I have seen those pilots move the stick during wipeout and they can move it with there pinkies if they want.  I know there is a mod one can do for the Warthog by removing that big center spring. For the Apache trimmer mode I use the central trimmer position. My Pedals are VKB Mk-IVs. They are very precise.

I have read all of this thread and especially like the post that shows equations close to time travel!! I am just joining in on the sadness. I have to say I would be very hesitant to jump in a helo that does have a trimmer reset. I can't wrap my head around physically moving the stick and rudder to center to manually reset the trim in flight. I have crashed a few times doing that. The controls have been locked to one position in many cases as well.

 

 

I think one of the mistakes I made in the beginning was when on a large defection, I would trim, return to centre and then feel like I needed to continue to make that large deflection, start to go wrong, trim, make another large deflection to correct, trim. Therefore trimming further and further away from what I wanted. Once trimmed and centered it's then just minor controls to maintain. 

[scoobie]

"Springless" typically mean the cyclic is held in position by friction, it stays where you leave it (you can buy these, I forgot the manufacturer's name).
In a RL helo it won't flop, but the details depend on a helo. For example in the Hip the cyclic will jump back to the trimmed position - where "trimmed" means it is a position held by a "spring bed" (don't know proper name for it). When you retrim, the springs get retrimmed and want to hold the stick in a new postion. So you can steer the Big Lady with or without trimming, the difference is force you have to use - you may choose to fight against the springs or not.

So... can we have the "timed release" trim option back (Apache and Mi-24)? No one asked to have it removed. The new system may stay there, I just won't be using it (I have a "soft center" stick myself, the TM Warthog with the spring removed), but why deprive people of the system that PROVED to work over loong years? That's beyond me. Huey and Hip are old, lots of people bought it, lots have hundreds or thousands of hours in them. No complaints about trim. Starting with the Hind, trim threads started popping up, some of them with misleading titles, because people are confused, they don't know what exactly is going on (just like myself until yesterday).

Edited March 22, 2022 by scoobie

[dburne]

Personally I think just the fact that this thread has gotten so much attention and feedback on the troubles with using the force trim in the Apache, should point to the fact that something needs to be tweaked on it by ED.