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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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3 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

If you have no idea where your controls are then you are not looking at the HUD. No need for the CI.

Everything you need to know is on the HUD. Altitude, speed, sideslip ball, and direction of travel.

What more do you need?

They don't tell you where your controls are, just what the aircraft is doing.  They aren't necessarily the same since in-game control location is different from where my controls actually are.

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1 hour ago, Malakhit said:

Not quite true. Altitude Hold and submodes are not yet implemented, for sure, but Attitude Hold works, as does the disengage button (Trim Hat Down) - it definitely cancels ATT HOLD.

As long as it isn't documented we have no idea whether it works. We only know that pressing the button has some effect, for example the status window box being displayed around the TAS and the disengage button making the box go away. There even seems to be some effect on the flight but everything else is pure assumption. the only thing not waiting for stuff to be implemented is the FTR and the disengage.

Screenshot_36.jpg

Since we can not even select an attitude hold mode, which per the manual is a precondition, it seems a far stretch to claim "it works" and I would prefer people to stop putting their assumptions out as if they were facts. Then this thread might be a lot shorter

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12 minutes ago, Rongor said:

As long as it isn't documented we have no idea whether it works. We only know that pressing the button has some effect, for example the status window box being displayed around the TAS and the disengage button making the box go away. There even seems to be some effect on the flight but everything else is pure assumption. the only thing not waiting for stuff to be implemented is the FTR and the disengage.

Screenshot_36.jpg

Since we can not even select an attitude hold mode, which per the manual is a precondition, it seems a far stretch to claim "it works" and I would prefer people to stop putting their assumptions out as if they were facts. Then this thread might be a lot shorter

The function of Attitude Hold mode is detailed in Wags' AH-64D Landing video, please see here from 2:40 onwards: 

Hope that helps. 🙂

 

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1 hour ago, rayrayblues said:

For sudden combat/evasive maneuvers, believe it or not, press and hold the trim button and you can make any maneuvers you want without losing control. It cancels your trim and gives you full control, then while still holding the button, recover to a normal flight path and release.

Comments like the red marked make it so much harder for beginners to understand how stuff actually works

Retrim as necessary to level off. I have tried it with and without holding the button and holding the button works. (for me at least) Without holding the button, I crash every time.

I encourage everyone to at least give it a try.  BTW I am using center trim with a spring stick and pedals. As long as I hold the button I can whip her around like a sports car.

Note:   This technique is only for emergency maneuvers, not for normal trimming.

Ok, so now you are claiming a continuous force trim release affects steering inputs. Please just stop.

Use the CI as @agamemnon_b5 recommended and notice how your 'advice' does exactly nothing.

I would strongly recommend not to do this. You risk accidently letting go the FTR button while you are in your 'evasive maneuvers', then you'll enter a world of pain because your controls will do nothing until centered.

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23 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

They don't tell you where your controls are, just what the aircraft is doing.  They aren't necessarily the same since in-game control location is different from where my controls actually are.

Isn't "What The Aircraft Is Doing" the whole point? Why is it so important to know "where your controls" are? I've heard that a lot in this thread.

My physical controls are spring loaded so they are always centered. Where my virtual controls are is not important.

The helicopter knows where they are and that's all that counts. Fly without the controls indicator and you will understand what I mean.

Where you are going, speed, altitude, vertical speed, sideslip etc. are all there is to know.  

 

After your emergency maneuver just fly straight & level, release the button, re-trim, and have a nice day.  HVYapur.png

 

BTW, if you are trimming during emergency maneuvers you're in trouble. Cancel the trim by holding the button.

You see, there is a reset function after all and it won't pitch up and stall.  SRsfa58.gif

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1 minute ago, Rongor said:

Use the CI as @agamemnon_b5 recommended and notice how your 'advice' does exactly nothing.

The red X follows the white diamond. What do you mean it does nothing? 

Have you even tried it???

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3 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

The red X follows the white diamond. What do you mean it does nothing? 

Have you even tried it???

The CI shows you that your whole idea of whipping it around like a sports car has nothing to do with holding down the FTR. And as you figured out yourself, poses nothing but a risk during maneuvering. So don't do that.


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42 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

They don't tell you where your controls are, just what the aircraft is doing.  They aren't necessarily the same since in-game control location is different from where my controls actually are.

Exactly.

Yes, you can control the helicopter this way, assuming you aren't running out of joystick travel because you were trimmed fairly far off center previously, but you might be in a situation where you are pulling back on the stick past zero to y=-20, but the helo is still in a nosedive because the virtual stick in the game is at y=+20.

That is why I was suggesting a "ghost" version of the actual position of your joystick could be represented in game, which might give you an idea if how misaligned you are with the game and help you get things sorted out.

And that is why a button that cancels all trim, and resets the position of the stick in game to match your actual position of the joystick in your hand can be beneficial.  Even if that results in a momentary change in attitude of the helo, I can get that under control pretty quickly if I now have a 1:1 relationship to the controls in the game.

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8 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

Isn't "What The Aircraft Is Doing" the whole point? Why is it so important to know "where your controls" are? I've heard that a lot in this thread.

My physical controls are spring loaded so they are always centered. Where my virtual controls are is not important.

The helicopter knows where they are and that's all that counts. Fly without the controls indicator and you will understand what I mean.

Well, flying with the CI for some time would make you stop developing wild assumptions what the FTR is good for and when you better shouldn't use it.

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I never got an answer and I’m trying to understand, could someone explain to me so I can better understand your viewpoint here on trim reset: What’s the situation, the context of which you’re using a trim reset that instantly resets the virtual controls to “center”? 

I imagine ED will add it eventually but I’m just curious if I can talk someone through using their trim better or if I need yo be more open minded about different ways of using the controls 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I never got an answer and I’m trying to understand, could someone explain to me so I can better understand your viewpoint here on trim reset: What’s the situation, the context of which you’re using a trim reset that instantly resets the virtual controls to “center”? 

I imagine ED will add it eventually but I’m just curious if I can talk someone through using their trim better or if I need yo be more open minded about different ways of using the controls 

Right now, in the Apache, there is no trim reset.

People are wishing for it as a quality of life option. The purpose is to cancel out the trim situation back to controls at center zero. So your centered controls hardware would return to represent ingame-aircraft controls which didn't receive any trimming so far, just as as they are when you start the aircraft up in DCS.

Sometimes, especially with few practice, you end up with a trim you just wanna get rid off fast.


Edited by Rongor
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1 minute ago, Rongor said:

Right now, in the Apache, there is no trim reset.

People are wishing for it as a quality of life option. The purpose is to cancel out the trim situation back to controls at center zero. So your centered controls hardware would return to represent ingame-aircraft controls which didn't receive any trimming so far, just as as they are when you start the aircraft up in DCS.

 

Thank you. I know this much, but not the scenario that people want to use trim reset as opposed to regular trim.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I never got an answer and I’m trying to understand, could someone explain to me so I can better understand your viewpoint here on trim reset: What’s the situation, the context of which you’re using a trim reset that instantly resets the virtual controls to “center”? 

I think a better explanation of what people are asking for is a single button that will return the controls in the game to match your physical position of your joystick, not necessarily back to "center".  More of a "cancel trim" function.

A good scenario might be if you find yourself in an uncontrolled nose dive with some left roll, and the ground is quickly approaching.  We can argue about how you may have gotten there in the first place some other time, but what is more important is that you have an immediate 1:1 relationship to the flight controls.

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5 minutes ago, S. Low said:

Thank you. I know this much, but not the scenario that people want to use trim reset as opposed to regular trim.

If you trimmed wrong and there is no time to correct the trim because you don't even have an idea in which direction you are wrongly trimmed, a trim reset would be the quickest and safest way.

If you have the controls indicator box open, you could do this yourself of course, but this could also require too much time, for example in case one axis is trimmed to one end, and you have to trim it back towards center and can't achieve this in a single trim attempt.

4 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

I think a better explanation of what people are asking for is a single button that will return the controls in the game to match your physical position of your joystick, not necessarily back to "center".  More of a "cancel trim" function.

No this is exactly not what they are asking for. It's in fact the centered position of your joystick. Other DCS helos have it.

What you are describing is trimming, not trim cancelling nor reset and was never in DCS.


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  • ED Team

If anyone wants to see where their controls are trimmed to, look at them. The pedals are visible, as is the stick in the cockpit. You can physically see their positions. The cyclics even have little white arrows showing their relative displacements from center, albeit one of them is missing for the pitch axis.


Edited by Raptor9
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What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

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Just now, dburne said:

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

it's not a mode, he is physically trimming the pedals so that the Apache is flying in nose to tail trim.

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Just now, dburne said:

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

this addresses flight attitude and is connected to the trim ball. Please allow me to not answer this here because it has nothing to do with force trim and also it is no mode at all.

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Just now, Strikeeagle345 said:

it's not a mode, he is physically trimming the pedals so that the Apache is flying in nose to tail trim.

Ah ok much thanks!

Don B

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Just now, dburne said:

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

He just means purposely adjusting the tail rotor thrust to keep the velocity vector straight up and down in the symbology, so the tail is aligned with the nose toward the direction of travel, versus "aerodynamic trim" in which the ball is kept centered but may cause the nose to be pointed to the side while crabbing in flight.

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Just now, Rongor said:

this addresses flight attitude and is connected to the trim ball. Please allow me to not answer this here because it has nothing to do with force trim and also it is no mode at all.

No problem I thought it might be now I know.

Don B

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7 minutes ago, Rongor said:

this addresses flight attitude and is connected to the trim ball. Please allow me to not answer this here because it has nothing to do with force trim and also it is no mode at all.

but it has everything to do with the force trim. You use the force trim to set the pedals to make what he asked happen.

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4 minutes ago, Strikeeagle345 said:

but it has everything to do with the force trim. You use the force trim to set the pedals to make what he asked happen.

no you don't. You use your feet to set the pedals.

And if you are annoyed by having to stress your feet that long, you may of course use force trim release, just like in any other situation you wanna ease your physical input for stability.

Other than this, there is no connection at all


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10 minutes ago, Rongor said:

no you don't. You use your feet to set the pedals.

And if you are annoyed by having to stress your feet that long, you may of course use force trim release, just like in any other situation you wanna ease your physical input for stability.

Other than this, there is no connection at all

 

When you are trimming for nose to tail or aerodynamic trim, you set the pedals then use the force trim to set new pedal position.... again, everything to do with the force trim. You really shouldn't have to hold the pedals in a direction with force trim available. Reduce your workload...

Their question was perfectly valid.


Edited by Strikeeagle345

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