Force Trim

[Rongor]

8 minutes ago, Malakhit said:

Hope that helps.

It doesn't. At no time does he claim it's already implemented. The manual also doesn't.

[rayrayblues]

1 minute ago, Rongor said:

Use the CI as @agamemnon_b5 recommended and notice how your 'advice' does exactly nothing.

The red X follows the white diamond. What do you mean it does nothing? 

Have you even tried it???

[Rongor]

3 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

The red X follows the white diamond. What do you mean it does nothing? 

Have you even tried it???

The CI shows you that your whole idea of whipping it around like a sports car has nothing to do with holding down the FTR. And as you figured out yourself, poses nothing but a risk during maneuvering. So don't do that.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Floyd1212]

42 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

They don't tell you where your controls are, just what the aircraft is doing.  They aren't necessarily the same since in-game control location is different from where my controls actually are.

Exactly.

Yes, you can control the helicopter this way, assuming you aren't running out of joystick travel because you were trimmed fairly far off center previously, but you might be in a situation where you are pulling back on the stick past zero to y=-20, but the helo is still in a nosedive because the virtual stick in the game is at y=+20.

That is why I was suggesting a "ghost" version of the actual position of your joystick could be represented in game, which might give you an idea if how misaligned you are with the game and help you get things sorted out.

And that is why a button that cancels all trim, and resets the position of the stick in game to match your actual position of the joystick in your hand can be beneficial.  Even if that results in a momentary change in attitude of the helo, I can get that under control pretty quickly if I now have a 1:1 relationship to the controls in the game.

[Rongor]

8 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

Isn't "What The Aircraft Is Doing" the whole point? Why is it so important to know "where your controls" are? I've heard that a lot in this thread.

My physical controls are spring loaded so they are always centered. Where my virtual controls are is not important.

The helicopter knows where they are and that's all that counts. Fly without the controls indicator and you will understand what I mean.

Well, flying with the CI for some time would make you stop developing wild assumptions what the FTR is good for and when you better shouldn't use it.

[S. Low]

I never got an answer and I’m trying to understand, could someone explain to me so I can better understand your viewpoint here on trim reset: What’s the situation, the context of which you’re using a trim reset that instantly resets the virtual controls to “center”? 

I imagine ED will add it eventually but I’m just curious if I can talk someone through using their trim better or if I need yo be more open minded about different ways of using the controls 

[Rongor]

10 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I never got an answer and I’m trying to understand, could someone explain to me so I can better understand your viewpoint here on trim reset: What’s the situation, the context of which you’re using a trim reset that instantly resets the virtual controls to “center”? 

I imagine ED will add it eventually but I’m just curious if I can talk someone through using their trim better or if I need yo be more open minded about different ways of using the controls 

Right now, in the Apache, there is no trim reset.

People are wishing for it as a quality of life option. The purpose is to cancel out the trim situation back to controls at center zero. So your centered controls hardware would return to represent ingame-aircraft controls which didn't receive any trimming so far, just as as they are when you start the aircraft up in DCS.

Sometimes, especially with few practice, you end up with a trim you just wanna get rid off fast.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[S. Low]

1 minute ago, Rongor said:

Right now, in the Apache, there is no trim reset.

People are wishing for it as a quality of life option. The purpose is to cancel out the trim situation back to controls at center zero. So your centered controls hardware would return to represent ingame-aircraft controls which didn't receive any trimming so far, just as as they are when you start the aircraft up in DCS.

 

Thank you. I know this much, but not the scenario that people want to use trim reset as opposed to regular trim.

[Floyd1212]

3 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I never got an answer and I’m trying to understand, could someone explain to me so I can better understand your viewpoint here on trim reset: What’s the situation, the context of which you’re using a trim reset that instantly resets the virtual controls to “center”? 

I think a better explanation of what people are asking for is a single button that will return the controls in the game to match your physical position of your joystick, not necessarily back to "center".  More of a "cancel trim" function.

A good scenario might be if you find yourself in an uncontrolled nose dive with some left roll, and the ground is quickly approaching.  We can argue about how you may have gotten there in the first place some other time, but what is more important is that you have an immediate 1:1 relationship to the flight controls.

[Rongor]

5 minutes ago, S. Low said:

Thank you. I know this much, but not the scenario that people want to use trim reset as opposed to regular trim.

If you trimmed wrong and there is no time to correct the trim because you don't even have an idea in which direction you are wrongly trimmed, a trim reset would be the quickest and safest way.

If you have the controls indicator box open, you could do this yourself of course, but this could also require too much time, for example in case one axis is trimmed to one end, and you have to trim it back towards center and can't achieve this in a single trim attempt.

4 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

I think a better explanation of what people are asking for is a single button that will return the controls in the game to match your physical position of your joystick, not necessarily back to "center".  More of a "cancel trim" function.

No this is exactly not what they are asking for. It's in fact the centered position of your joystick. Other DCS helos have it.

What you are describing is trimming, not trim cancelling nor reset and was never in DCS.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Raptor9]

If anyone wants to see where their controls are trimmed to, look at them. The pedals are visible, as is the stick in the cockpit. You can physically see their positions. The cyclics even have little white arrows showing their relative displacements from center, albeit one of them is missing for the pitch axis.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Raptor9

[dburne]

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

[Strikeeagle345]

Just now, dburne said:

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

it's not a mode, he is physically trimming the pedals so that the Apache is flying in nose to tail trim.

[Rongor]

Just now, dburne said:

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

this addresses flight attitude and is connected to the trim ball. Please allow me to not answer this here because it has nothing to do with force trim and also it is no mode at all.

[dburne]

Just now, Strikeeagle345 said:

it's not a mode, he is physically trimming the pedals so that the Apache is flying in nose to tail trim.

Ah ok much thanks!

[Raptor9]

Just now, dburne said:

What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video? 

He just means purposely adjusting the tail rotor thrust to keep the velocity vector straight up and down in the symbology, so the tail is aligned with the nose toward the direction of travel, versus "aerodynamic trim" in which the ball is kept centered but may cause the nose to be pointed to the side while crabbing in flight.

[dburne]

Just now, Rongor said:

this addresses flight attitude and is connected to the trim ball. Please allow me to not answer this here because it has nothing to do with force trim and also it is no mode at all.

No problem I thought it might be now I know.

[Strikeeagle345]

7 minutes ago, Rongor said:

this addresses flight attitude and is connected to the trim ball. Please allow me to not answer this here because it has nothing to do with force trim and also it is no mode at all.

but it has everything to do with the force trim. You use the force trim to set the pedals to make what he asked happen.

[Rongor]

4 minutes ago, Strikeeagle345 said:

but it has everything to do with the force trim. You use the force trim to set the pedals to make what he asked happen.

no you don't. You use your feet to set the pedals.

And if you are annoyed by having to stress your feet that long, you may of course use force trim release, just like in any other situation you wanna ease your physical input for stability.

Other than this, there is no connection at all

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Strikeeagle345]

10 minutes ago, Rongor said:

no you don't. You use your feet to set the pedals.

And if you are annoyed by having to stress your feet that long, you may of course use force trim release, just like in any other situation you wanna ease your physical input for stability.

Other than this, there is no connection at all

 

When you are trimming for nose to tail or aerodynamic trim, you set the pedals then use the force trim to set new pedal position.... again, everything to do with the force trim. You really shouldn't have to hold the pedals in a direction with force trim available. Reduce your workload...

Their question was perfectly valid.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Strikeeagle345

[Rongor]

1 minute ago, Strikeeagle345 said:

When you are trimming for nose to tail or aerodynamic trim, you set the pedals then use the force trim to set the pedals.... again, everything to do with the force trim. You really shouldn't have to hold the pedals in a direction with force trim available. Reduce your workload...

This is highly individual. Don't see why you would trim for keeping  only minor adjustments. It's not like you want to take your feet off the pedals.

Your whole argument is basically saying all steering adjustments have to do with the force trim release. Regarding your ED beta testers tag line, I find that highly problematic. Beginners will deem your comments more credible than others, so you create a lot of confusion by your words. I really hope you don't test helos.

[S. Low]

Wait, Rongor is disputing Floyd and they’re both trying to tell me what the community wants with a trim reset.

Before this discussion continues I think it’s really important that you get a solid, clear explanation of what the “trim reset option group” wants so wags and team know what to do or not do for you.

You want the same trim reset that’s available in the other helo modules I assume? The one that clears your trim and resets the digital stick to digital center?

If so, I *personally* don’t understand where this is used in practice, in flight? If you could detail out why a trimmer reset is needed as opposed to just further trimming the aircraft, I’d appreciate it because I personally have difficulty these days understanding different view points.

1) If I’m landing i am repeatedly pressing trim to set a new trim position to help stabilize the aircraft.

2) If I’m flying level I’m retrimming (too much cause I’m OCD) to keep her level

3) if I’m accelerating I’m actually waiting until level flight to retrim 

4) if I’m maneuvering a hard turn after being trimmed for a fast forward flight I might retrim quickly in the bank to get more deflection room for my physical stick, then be sure to retrim again in level flight like I would anyways

5) I’m always hands on stick, so if I make a trimming error I just hold the stick and physically correct the aircraft and make a proper trim

6) if I’m taking off I am doing a few trims to get everything stable.

thank you 

[Rongor]

7 minutes ago, S. Low said:

1) If I’m landing i am repeatedly pressing trim to set a new trim position to help stabilize the aircraft. one press of trim reset would do

5) I’m always hands on stick, so if I make a trimming error I just hold the stick and physically correct the aircraft and make a proper trim one press of trim reset could help in case you are task overloaded and/or in an unsafe flight attitude

to be honest we shouldn't discuss trim reset here in this already cluttered thread filled with misconceptions. Wasn't there a thread about trim reset?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Strikeeagle345]

2 minutes ago, Rongor said:

This is highly individual. Don't see why you would trim for keeping  only minor adjustments. It's not like you want to take your feet off the pedals.

Your whole argument is basically saying all steering adjustments have to do with the force trim release. Regarding your ED beta testers tag line, I find that highly problematic. Beginners will deem your comments more credible than others, so you create a lot of confusion by your words. I really hope you don't test helos.

You should be trimming your aircraft out to reduce workload. Just a good practice to have. No where in the above did I say "all steering adjustments have to do with the force trim release," you are taking what I am saying way out of context and need to re-evaluate. 

The guy asked "What is the nose to tail trim mode I see Wags mention in his landing video?" . I explained it wasn't a mode and that wags was explaining how to use the force trim to hold nose to tail or aerodynamic trim.

You then told him his question wasn't relevant to this force trim thread, which is just plain inaccurate.

[Raptor9]

I think there may be some confusion with some people over the difference between force trim and the different terms related to "tail rotor trim".

"Force trim" refers to magnetic brakes that provide resistance to the flight controls (in the AH-64's case, the cyclic and the anti-torque pedals). Whereas fixed-wing aircraft use trim tabs or some other flight control function to manually adjust the flight controls for level flight with minimal effort required by the pilot on the flight controls, helicopters use a magnetic brake system that provides resistance to assist the pilot in keeping the controls in place to maintain the current flight condition/parameters. When the force trim release is pressed (also called the force trim interrupt, or the "trimmer" in other DCS modules), the magnetic clamps release, removing the spring resistance to the controls. When the force trim release button is no longer pressed, the magnetic resistance re-engages, trying to hold the controls at the new position.  I recommend a google search of "helicopter force trim" to understand this, or just watch your virtual controls in the DCS cockpit when using the function.

Referring to a helicopter being "in trim" is describing flying in coordinated flight with the "trim ball" centered on the flight instruments. This is also called "aerodynamic trim". Alternatively you may also hear the terms "nose-to-tail trim" or "NOE trim". This is adjusting the pedals so that the tail is following right behind the nose, rather than adjusting the pedals to keep the ball centered.

"Force trim" and "putting/keeping the helicopter in trim" are two different things.

EDIT: "Trim Reset" in other DCS helos is a notional cheat to re-sync your virtual cockpit controls in the DCS aircraft with the physical HOTAS controls in your hand that is plugged into your computer. However, "Trim Reset" as it is implemented in DCS isn't present in real-life helos since you would only have physical controls in real-life, no virtual controls.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Raptor9