Force Trim

[Rongor]

Just now, Strikeeagle345 said:

I explained it wasn't a mode and that wags was explaining how to use the force trim to hold nose to tail or aerodynamic trim.

You then told him his question wasn't relevant to this force trim thread, which is just plain inaccurate.

So how is it relevant to a force trim thread, besides the fact that Wags used force trim in a video in a moment he wanted to maintain aerodynamic trim?

[shrimpy_dikdik]

So if you find yourself in a bit of a pickle, say diving towards the ground and spinning around, you hit this theoretical trim reset. This puts the aircraft trim back to nominal right? As in when? The trim state before take off?  The aircraft will be in a completely different state to when the trim was nominal. How is that supposed to help? The control surfaces will be all over the place, you could find yourself in an even worst situation. 

If i am wrong please someone tell me what state trim the trim resets to.

If in said pickle, counter it as best you can and press and release force trim and let your controls return to centre. Might not be 100% spot on but I bet a lot easier to control, and if not spot on just force trim again. 

[S. Low]

4 minutes ago, Rongor said:

to be honest we shouldn't discuss trim reset here in this already cluttered thread filled with misconceptions. Wasn't there a thread about trim reset?

 

I’m trying to quote the edits you made to my scenarios but I don’t know how lol.

You mentioned “one press would do” but if we’re talking about the same trim reset, then it would actually hurt you more than help.

If you’re coming in to land and you press trim reset to return to digital center, the jolt of this level of controls movement from forward flight trim will be worse for your ability to control the aircraft than doing minute trimming changes. 
 

If you’ve mistrimmed at high speed and you press trim reset your aircraft will nose up to the moon.

My assumption seems to be correct then based on your responses that you want a trim reset in situations where it would be better to just keep flying the aircraft and trimming naturally.

This isn’t to say Ed shouldn’t make more controls (they have a game mode too for accessibility) but I think several of you could do with some trimming practice and you’d be good to go.

[Strikeeagle345]

Just now, Rongor said:

So how is it relevant to a force trim thread, besides the fact that Wags used force trim in a video in a moment he wanted to maintain aerodynamic trim?

The guy asked what Wags was referring to in his video. Wags was explaining how to use the Force trim to hold the pedal position to keep the aircraft in nose to tail trim.
 

[Rongor]

17 minutes ago, Strikeeagle345 said:

The guy asked what Wags was referring to in his video. Wags was explaining how to use the Force trim to hold the pedal position to keep the aircraft in nose to tail trim.
 

yeah. two topics in one sentence and now we have a problem. You have to disconnect Wags use of the FTR from the reason he intended to maintain a certain pedal attitude. He could've done it in any other moment, maybe while hovering or during a turn. This doesn't mean FTR is connected to these specific attitudes.

read and understand what @Raptor9 explained here

English is not my native language so I couldn't have explained it even close that well he did.

 

With any repetition of connecting Force trim to aerodynamic and/or nose-to-tail trim, you will promote further confusion. This thread is much too long already and we can't expect anybody to review all what was said and then differentiate between helpful and misleading.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Rongor]

17 minutes ago, S. Low said:

I’m trying to quote the edits you made to my scenarios but I don’t know how lol. I'll do some more

You mentioned “one press would do” but if we’re talking about the same trim reset, then it would actually hurt you more than help. Not in the landing example, you started up with zero trim, maybe even lifted up with zero trim - or close. When sitting on the ground, you reset and all is good. Btw it's common to us FTR in RL as well to ease mast moment after settling down. In our DCS gaming world, pressing a trim reset would be a close representation, at least when landed on level surfaces.

If you’re coming in to land and you press trim reset to return to digital center, the jolt of this level of controls movement from forward flight trim will be worse for your ability to control the aircraft than doing minute trimming changes. you are totally right, I wouldn't recommend to use it when close to the ground.
 

If you’ve mistrimmed at high speed and you press trim reset your aircraft will nose up to the moon. Then slow down beforehand

My assumption seems to be correct then based on your responses that you want a trim reset in situations where it would be better to just keep flying the aircraft and trimming naturally. Also correct, it really is a measure of last resort in most cases

This isn’t to say Ed shouldn’t make more controls (they have a game mode too for accessibility) but I think several of you could do with some trimming practice and you’d be good to go.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Strikeeagle345]

1 minute ago, Rongor said:

yeah. two topics in one sentence and now we have a problem. You have to disconnect Wags use of the FTR from the reason he intended to maintain a certain pedal attitude. He could've done it in any other moment, maybe while hovering or during a turn. This doesn't mean FTR is connected to these specific attitudes.

read and understand what @Raptor9 explained here

English is not my native language so I couldn't have explained it close that well he did.

 

With any repetition of connecting Force trim to aerodynamic and/or nose-to-tail trim, you will promote further confusion. This thread is much too long already and we can't expect anybody to review all what was said and then differentiate between helpful and misleading.

 

Ok, I think you are just misconstruing what I am saying, as well as what that person asked in their question, as you stated  English is not your native language.

Anyway, moving on now.

[agamemnon_b5]

Radical perspective:

 

Looking at this thread, the confusion with force trim, ATT hold, hover hold etc, I think maybe release should have been delayed maybe another month.

I base my perspective on the fact that a simulation of an aircraft designed as a stand-off platform to deliver precision guided ordnance doesn't have said features (whatever it does to have a hover hold and stable heading hold) to prevent an inordinate amount of effort to do something "simple" as hovering.

 

[Hiob]

I just went through all Trimmer Modes in each of the following: Huey, Hip and Apache.

And guess what, they are all the same (though by different names sometimes) and work all the same (with just some minor "tweaks" in the latest module.

There are only three different options:

1. Default (Huey/Hip) / Instant Trim (Apache)

When you press the trimmer the new center point (marked by red X in the Apache, unmarked in the older modules) jumps to the current hold position of your cyclic/pedals. Your physical inputs are read immediately (Edit: rechecked again - with a slight delay) and add to the new trimmed position if you don't recenter them in a split second. Which can lead to a little jump in the controls.

2. Central Position Trimmer Mode

Same as above with the difference, that the position of your physical inputs are ignored until you recenter them. That prevents the above mentioned "jump" but needs the recenter. If you for whatever reason fail to recenter, you are basically blocked from Inputting.

3. Springless / no FFB

Basically does nothing to the cyclic. Is meant for self holding inputs without any recentering force. Just places the red X to the position where you pressed trim. Can give you a visual clue if you happen to show the control overlay. Does absolutely nothing otherwise. Very useful for Pedals without a spring to always match the in game pedals.

 

The only differences with the new Apache are the following:

- the Instant trim has a small delay, probably to minimize the "jump"

- Pedals and cyclic can be set individually

- the control overlay gives more detailed information.

BUT NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE BASIC WAY THE DIFFERENT TRIMMER MODES WORK.

 

I suggest to everyone who struggles: Sit on the ground. Put up the Control Overlay, move cyclic, trim, observe - rinse and repeat. It is really not that complex. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hiob

[Rongor]

3 minutes ago, Strikeeagle345 said:

Ok, I think you are just misconstruing what I am saying, as well as what that person asked in their question, as you stated  English is not your native language.

Anyway, moving on now.

No you didn't think, you posted it publicly, probably to leave a stain on my credibility, which is sad. I didn't meant to hurt you or anybody.
In the aviation world, it's good practice to suppress emotions like this and keep eyes open for ideas opposing your established mindset.

3 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Radical perspective:

 

Looking at this thread, the confusion with force trim, ATT hold, hover hold etc, I think maybe release should have been delayed maybe another month.

I base my perspective on the fact that a simulation of an aircraft designed as a stand-off platform to deliver precision guided ordnance doesn't have said features (whatever it does to have a hover hold and stable heading hold) to prevent an inordinate amount of effort to do something "simple" as hovering.

 

I don't understand how this would have prevented misunderstanding the FTR. Because the idea of having these modes magically make the FTR concept go away is one of many misconceptions in this thread.

[Rongor]

Hiob is right, the central position trimmer mode always worked like this. the only thing making people think it is a special weirdness with the Apache is that many obviously only ever used default trimmer mode and since this one isn't available in the Apache, now are struggling to adapt.

[Strikeeagle345]

3 minutes ago, Rongor said:

No you didn't think, you posted it publicly, probably to leave a stain on my credibility, which is sad. I didn't meant to hurt you or anybody.
In the aviation world, it's good practice to suppress emotions like this and keep eyes open for ideas opposing your established mindset.

There was no ill intent to stain any credibility. Simply pointing out that what was asked was completely relevant to this Force Trim thread. Clearly, this was a misunderstanding with the use of language.

[Rongor]

Just now, Strikeeagle345 said:

There was no ill intent to stain any credibility. Simply pointing out that what was asked was completely relevant to this Force Trim thread. Clearly, this was a misunderstanding with the use of language.

so you still don't understand. As long as you think there was relevance, you didn't get it. Please read Raptor9's post above. Or do as you said and move on.

[LooseSeal]

10 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Looking at this thread, the confusion with force trim, ATT hold, hover hold etc, I think maybe release should have been delayed maybe another month.

I base my perspective on the fact that a simulation of an aircraft designed as a stand-off platform to deliver precision guided ordnance doesn't have said features (whatever it does to have a hover hold and stable heading hold) to prevent an inordinate amount of effort to do something "simple" as hovering.

 

You think they should have delayed it because some people don't understand how to use trim? I think I must be missing something.

We are missing the altitude hold function, and that's it. If people are struggling to hover, the addition of altitude hold isn't going to make a huge difference. After all, switching on Att and Alt hold is not the equivalent of autohover. You still need to fly the thing. This is why there are two crew members!

I honestly don't understand where the "inordinate" amount of effort to hover is coming from.

[Hiob]

9 minutes ago, Rongor said:

Hiob is right, the central position trimmer mode always worked like this. the only thing making people think it is a special weirdness with the Apache is that many obviously only ever used default trimmer mode and since this one isn't available in the Apache, now are struggling to adapt.

Yeah, but it is. Just by another name. Instant Trim (FFB friendly) does the exact same thing as default did earlier. It's just a tiny bit refined to do it smoother.

[Strikeeagle345]

1 hour ago, Rongor said:

so you still don't understand. As long as you think there was relevance, you didn't get it. Please read Raptor9's post above. Or do as you said and move on.

I know exactly how the Force trim works. Been flying it for a long time now and tested it thoroughly.

You were wrong for telling the guy his question wasn't relevant. It was relevant. In the section of the video he is asking about, Wags is explaining how to use the force trim release bind to help  establish and hold the pedals to maintain the trim you want. He asked if it was a trim mode, it is not. This is a thread titled "Force Trim." Perfectly relevant question to ask...

Anyway, apologies for the derail everyone.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Strikeeagle345

[Fakum]

OMG! Please ED,,, just give us our Trim Reset option please,, this is a simulator, not the real deal,, I dont think I can explain myself anymore. Too many people opposing it in here and dont understand that its already in use elsewhere, we just dont have it here and they dont understand the request. Im done commenting in here, I will just hope this gets the attention it deserves and those that dont want it dont have to have it. Good night!

[BIGNEWY]

People relax. 

A cheat bind option for trim reset is on the to do list. 

thanks

[dburne]

32 minutes ago, Strikeeagle345 said:

I know exactly how the Force trim works. Been flying it for a long time now and tested it thoroughly.

You were wrong for telling the guy his question wasn't relevant. It was relevant. In the section of the video he is asking about, Wags is explaining how to use the force trim release bind to help  establish and hold the pedals to maintain the trim you want. He asked if it was a trim mode, it is not. This is a thread titled "Force Trim." Perfectly relevant question to ask...

Anyway, apologies for the derail everyone.

 

In other news I was able to make a really nice low level flight after cranking her up in the Cold Start Training. I am getting pretty good at startups. Anyways I have come a long way being able to use Force Trim and adjust it throughout the flight. Any change to collective and it will need to be trimmed again for the most part. Still can't decide quite which buttons I want to end up mapping it too. Currently have mapped to my 4 way plus push hat on my Gunfighter, the hat one would normally use for trim in airplanes. Think I am also going to try mapping to the 4 way hat plus push on the front of my Virpil CM3 Throttle to see if that suits me better.  Whatever button I end up with is going to see a lot of use when flying the Apache for sure.

Edited March 22, 2022 by dburne

[GoodHope]

10 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

People relax. 

A cheat bind option for trim reset is on the to do list. 

thanks

I love it when dad gets home from work.

[Beirut]

27 minutes ago, dburne said:

In other news I was able to make a really nice low level flight after cranking her up in the Cold Start Training. I am getting pretty good at startups. Anyways I have come a long way being able to use Force Trim and adjust it throughout the flight. Any change to collective and it will need to be trimmed again for the most part. Still can't decide quite which buttons I want to end up mapping it too. Currently have mapped to my 4 way plus push hat on my Gunfighter, the hat one would normally use for trim in airplanes. Think I am also going to try mapping to the 4 way hat plus push on the front of my Virpil CM3 Throttle to see if that suits me better.  Whatever button I end up with is going to see a lot of use when flying the Apache for sure.

 

 

Do you use Voice Attack? saves me buttons and brain cells.

 

I've got my pilot gun setup all mapped to "guns". One word leads to about six steps and I'm ready for the boom. 

[scoobie]

@Hiob You're right! My bad. The only significant difference is that in the Huey the "freeze" time is really long (in the "Default" mode), like 0.7 second or so. I thought in the Hip it was the same, but no - the "freeze" time is very short.

I got so confused about it all and eventually selected wrong options in the Hind and Apache
I'll go and check the Hind which gave me the most trouble (most crashes during NOE flying due to sudden "controls lock").
Thanks for the enlightment!

Edited March 22, 2022 by scoobie

[jparker36]

I've got my special settings set for the recenter stick, but for some reason while my rudder holds trim perfectly when I do force trim, my cyclic does not. It still responds to inputs and just treats the position where I hit force trim at as the new center of the stick. This means when I trim to forward flight, recentering my stick causes the nose to massively pitch up. Is anyone else having this issue?

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

 

Do you use Voice Attack? saves me buttons and brain cells.

 

I've got my pilot gun setup all mapped to "guns". One word leads to about six steps and I'm ready for the boom. 

 

Lol - yes I have Voice Attack with Vaicom Pro.

 

1 hour ago, jparker36 said:

I've got my special settings set for the recenter stick, but for some reason while my rudder holds trim perfectly when I do force trim, my cyclic does not. It still responds to inputs and just treats the position where I hit force trim at as the new center of the stick. This means when I trim to forward flight, recentering my stick causes the nose to massively pitch up. Is anyone else having this issue?

Can't say I have seen that. I hit the button to force trim then immediately let the stick go back to center, then I have stick control again at the new trim setting. Occasionally it will be like it did not take the trim for some reason and I have to do it again. Not real sure why; maybe not getting the button depressed enough to active a button press or what. Just occasionally though.

Edited March 22, 2022 by dburne

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

Lol - yes I have Voice Attack with Vaicom Pro.

 

 

I'm sure you've mentioned it before, but my brain is so slow sometimes. I might have to use Voice Attack in real life.