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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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On 3/21/2022 at 3:17 AM, SkateZilla said:

 

Thanks, thats very useful, I have a quick question - when you are talking about the need to re centre the stick before you can use it again after changing the settings in special, ( around minute 13 - 14) I dont see the white diamond moving back to centre when you are presumably doing this....why is that ? 

43 minutes ago, bradmick said:

I’m a big fan of the central position trimmer. It mirrors actual force trim procedures with one caveat: you don’t recenter the stick in the aircraft. But the procedure is the same.

1. Press and hold the force trim interrupt

2. Move the flight control to the desired position

3. Let go of the force trim interrupt while simultaneously letting go of the stick to center the joystick.

 

Alternatively:

 

1. Move the flight control to the desired position

2. Perform a short press and release of the force trim button then immediately let go of the flight controls to center the stick

 

The other thing to work on is making “millimeter movements” on the flight controls. You’ll want to make large movements to set the initial fight control positions, and then use “pressure/counter-pressure” with your fingertips to maintain position. If you’re finding yourself fighting the trim. Then perform a short press of the force trim release button to adjust the flight control reference point. 
 

the other thing to remember with the central position trimmer is that it WILL lock out the axis trimmed until you recenter, so if you keep pressing the pedal or holding the cyclic in position, you won’t be able to fly at all until you center the controls. 
 

In summary, the mantra:

Interrupt (the the force trim), set (the flight control in the desired position), release (the force trim and flight control to center)

 

interrupt, set, release.

 

Hope it helps! New pilots to the Apache struggle hard with this too, so don’t feel bad.

 

This is tricky if the force trim button is on your cyclic, as you cant let go and still operate teh button. maybe best in this situation to have the force trim button bound to a hat on the collective? 

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2 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

This is tricky if the force trim button is on your cyclic, as you cant let go and still operate teh button. maybe best in this situation to have the force trim button bound to a hat on the collective? 

On my warthog I gave it bound to my CMS switch, my thumb naturally rests there. CMS forward is trim release, left attitude hold, right altitude hold and back holds disengage. I map all my trimmers there because of how my setup is….setup, lol

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5 hours ago, Bewsher said:

Just adding this. Make sure your equipment is properly calibrated in control panel then calibrate with 3pd software after.

I would never calibrate in control panel, I have a VKB stick and Virpil throttle, I only calibrate in their software.

Don B

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15 hours ago, Hiob said:

BUT NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE BASIC WAY THE DIFFERENT TRIMMER MODES WORK

Thank you for the (at least for me) very helpful hints on how the various modes in the Special menu affect how trims are set up. It helped to resolved one nagging Issue I had (after adding a small dead zone, the joystick returned control to me after trimming).

It seems to me, many here (me included) are baffled by one option that seemingly is missing, or that I can't get to work. In simple terms (for me), trimming simply sets constant values for dx and dy offset that are added to your x and y cyclic inputs. In the Huey, Hind, Gazelle, Shark and Hip, I can press a 'trim reset' button that simply resets that dx/dy to 0/0 (usually buffered, within 0.5 seconds). The controls return to 'true stick' values, no offset, so to speak. I can't find that on my Apache, or can't get it  to work that way. I assumed that the 'Force Trim / Hold Mode D- Down' (which the Manual seems to indicate a "Reset") does not, in fact do what the reset button does on the Huey et al. I guess that is what is throwing off so many of us, and that is what many (me included) would like to have. Then again, it may be just me, and I'm (again) overlooking the obvious. 

So I guess, the question is: how would I, without looking at my control indicator effectively zero the offset, or which setting in special would give me that functionality when used with "Mode D - down'? That would help me a lot - thank you for any hints.

 

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2 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Thank you for the (at least for me) very helpful hints on how the various modes in the Special menu affect how trims are set up. It helped to resolved one nagging Issue I had (after adding a small dead zone, the joystick returned control to me after trimming).

It seems to me, many here (me included) are baffled by one option that seemingly is missing, or that I can't get to work. In simple terms (for me), trimming simply sets constant values for dx and dy offset that are added to your x and y cyclic inputs. In the Huey, Hind, Gazelle, Shark and Hip, I can press a 'trim reset' button that simply resets that dx/dy to 0/0 (usually buffered, within 0.5 seconds). The controls return to 'true stick' values, no offset, so to speak. I can't find that on my Apache, or can't get it  to work that way. I assumed that the 'Force Trim / Hold Mode D- Down' (which the Manual seems to indicate a "Reset") does not, in fact do what the reset button does on the Huey et al. I guess that is what is throwing off so many of us, and that is what many (me included) would like to have. Then again, it may be just me, and I'm (again) overlooking the obvious. 

So I guess, the question is: how would I, without looking at my control indicator effectively zero the offset, or which setting in special would give me that functionality when used with "Mode D - down'? That would help me a lot - thank you for any hints.

 

The D - Disengage, disengages the Attitude and Altitude hold modes after they've been turned on. That's all it does. It doesn't reset or release the force trim. In fact, force trim doesn't  auto center at all on it's own, you have to move the flight controls (because it's a magnetic brake that holds the flight control in position). There is no 'trim reset' in any helicopter that i've flown that magically centers the flight controls, this would be a terrible idea in a real helicopter. The real Huey does't have it, the Lakota doesn't have it, the Apache doesn't have it and neither did the TH-67. The trim reset won't help, understanding the theory behind how the trim in the sim works and what it's trying to replicate in the age of non forcefeedback sticks is what'll help.

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6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Thank you for the (at least for me) very helpful hints on how the various modes in the Special menu affect how trims are set up. It helped to resolved one nagging Issue I had (after adding a small dead zone, the joystick returned control to me after trimming).

It seems to me, many here (me included) are baffled by one option that seemingly is missing, or that I can't get to work. In simple terms (for me), trimming simply sets constant values for dx and dy offset that are added to your x and y cyclic inputs. In the Huey, Hind, Gazelle, Shark and Hip, I can press a 'trim reset' button that simply resets that dx/dy to 0/0 (usually buffered, within 0.5 seconds). The controls return to 'true stick' values, no offset, so to speak. I can't find that on my Apache, or can't get it  to work that way. I assumed that the 'Force Trim / Hold Mode D- Down' (which the Manual seems to indicate a "Reset") does not, in fact do what the reset button does on the Huey et al. I guess that is what is throwing off so many of us, and that is what many (me included) would like to have. Then again, it may be just me, and I'm (again) overlooking the obvious. 

So I guess, the question is: how would I, without looking at my control indicator effectively zero the offset, or which setting in special would give me that functionality when used with "Mode D - down'? That would help me a lot - thank you for any hints.

 

 

ED has stated they are looking at adding a trim reset option.

 

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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2 minutes ago, bradmick said:

this would be a terrible idea in a real helicopter.

Indeed and fully agreed. Except we are not flying a real helicopter, and we are using spring-loaded joysticks. Sometimes a couple of 'playability cheats' go a long way. For example, I can press 'pause' when I need to take a leak in DCS. Also I would never touch the controls of my Cherokee after imbibing. Terrible idea in real life. Great in a game.

 

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17 minutes ago, bradmick said:

The D - Disengage, disengages the Attitude and Altitude hold modes after they've been turned on. That's all it does. It doesn't reset or release the force trim. In fact, force trim doesn't  auto center at all on it's own, you have to move the flight controls (because it's a magnetic brake that holds the flight control in position). There is no 'trim reset' in any helicopter that i've flown that magically centers the flight controls, this would be a terrible idea in a real helicopter. The real Huey does't have it, the Lakota doesn't have it, the Apache doesn't have it and neither did the TH-67. The trim reset won't help, understanding the theory behind how the trim in the sim works and what it's trying to replicate in the age of non forcefeedback sticks is what'll help.

They also don’t have a system which locks you out of controlling the aircraft till you centre your sticks but you know …..

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I think, where a lot of the confusion stems from is, that people fail to distinguish between three different topics. (EDIT: 3,5 Topics!)

1. Force Trim

2. Stabilization "AP"-modes like ATT-Hold, HDG-Hold and Auto-Hover

3. The translation and different methods of translating what we can do with our desk-cockpits to the simulated aircraft (which is everything revolving around the different settings in the special options tab).

3(b) - relating only to the third topic - A trim reset function (with ED already announced will be implemented!)

The first (4-way trim head "up") simply holds the cyclic (I am only referring to the cyclic for the sake of simplicity) in the position it is in when the trim button is pressed and released. The Aircraft will continue as if you where holding this cyclic position manually. In the real Aircrafts, e.g. the Huey it will adjust the hydraulics so, that the stick is hold in the trimmed position without any recoil/retention forces acting on the pilots hand.

The second is only relevant for Aircraft with a flight computer/sas augmentation system. It applies for sure to the Apache, though not all modes have been implemented yet. It is a completely different topic though.

The third is the most difficult one to discuss, because people have different setups, different needs and different perception. But that is all about the (not necessarily realistic) "helpers" that ED implemented to make it possible to control a Helicopter without having real Helicopter control inputs at hand. How they work exactly is described in detail further up.

 

If we really want to help those who struggle and want to come to any reasonable conclusion, we first need to make sure, what we are talking about here.


Edited by Hiob

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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Trim reset is vital when you need to move the cyclic to a predetermined and specific position i.e. autorotation

An IRL pilot does not need this obviously but it is needed due to the way our joysticks and center trim works

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by crispy12
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  • ED Team

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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8 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

It might help if ED did a better job of explaining things rather than leave it to random people on YouTube channels and the forums.

Look at the heading hold (supposedly a thing though I never got it to work).  The thread was linked earlier in this thread.  People say its there and works.  At no point in any of the videos released by ED does it go into this and how to achieve.  It also seems that no content maker even knows about.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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10 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

Brad just made a separate post with his trim instructions. Pretty much resolves it

 

 

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Just now, agamemnon_b5 said:

It might help if ED did a better job of explaining things rather than leave it to random people on YouTube channels and the forums.

Not speaking for the dev team, but a lot of it is WIP, including the manual.  Not to beat a dead horse, but early access is early access, even the documentation. 361 pages still only scratches the surface of what is needed to fully explain the embedded logics and behavior, but resources and time is limited.  Any previous module had features change and evolve as things were improved. If one thing is said in the manual, but isn't implemented fully or accurately in the module at any given point, then people don't know what to believe there either.  I'm not saying that it won't get there, I'm just saying that having to create graphics, charts and long descriptions to explain how something is functioning now, but is evolving as they are fleshed out, is not an efficient use of time or resources.

Further, even when they are explained thoroughly, a lot of people still bring their own assumptions into the forums to incorrectly explain how things work or should work, with zero reference to anything that is put out there in the manual or tutorials accurately and thoroughly anyway. Again, not dogging anyone, I was just stating for myself after someone pinged me that my efforts are going to be focused elsewhere for the sake of efficiency.

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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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1 minute ago, Raptor9 said:

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

You are of course, correct. I guess with the popularity of the module, in a way it could even be expected. 

 

 

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Well I think I have take off and flight basics nailed down pretty good with using the force trim as it should be - finally. Today I am devoting to getting to the same point with landing from a hover. I can do a rolling landing all day no problem, it's landing from a hover is costing me too much damage to my chopper. Maybe someday in the not too distant future I can progress on with learning combat with my buddy George.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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2 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well I think I have take off and flight basics nailed down pretty good with using the force trim as it should be - finally. Today I am devoting to getting to the same point with landing from a hover. I can do a rolling landing all day no problem, it's landing from a hover is costing me too much damage to my chopper. Maybe someday in the not too distant future I can progress on with learning combat with my buddy George.

Be gradual with it at first.  If you have to be going 10 knots, then go at 10 knots and land her gently.  Landing from 0ish knots will come.

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[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I haven't fired a single shot since the release because I wanted to get a feel for flying her around...landings and such! I'm starting to believe most of the problems with Force trim come from the user side. Trimming is not that difficult to grasp. Also, Overkills video helped as well!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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11 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I haven't fired a single shot since the release because I wanted to get a feel for flying her around...landings and such! I'm starting to believe most of the problems with Force trim come from the user side. Trimming is not that difficult to grasp. Also, Overkills video helped as well!

Yeah now I don't think it is all that difficult, but in the beginning it certainly was for me and I imagine for a lot of others.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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13 minutes ago, dburne said:

Yeah now I don't think it is all that difficult, but in the beginning it certainly was for me and I imagine for a lot of others.

Yeah, the first time I put her into a hover, she was all over the place. It just takes time, patience and understanding. Just like my trusty Tomcat!

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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For now I am satisfied that ED has said they are bringing the trim reset "cheat" to the module.  No need to continue to argue with others about how it can be useful.

I think with some external software, like Joystick Gremlin, and the new trim reset function available, there will be options to set it all up to do exactly what is intuitive for me to use.  Thanks ED. 👍

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I don't really understand the war between Force Feedback mode/ centre spring mode.
I think it was more or less the same for every single helicopter since Ka-50. Use what you prefer.

I'm in centre spring mode.

At first it was a little bit frustrating, because I didn't handled it as well as Mi-24. But now just under 06 hours of flight time (which is nothing, but maybe can give and idea, your millage may vary) I start to feel more comfortable flying around, tactical flight, coming to a hover and landing. Yep, a lot of foot work so far, it will be probably easier when flight assistance sub-modes will be available.

Just practice guys, take your time and build your muscle memory. You will master it 😉

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