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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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Well I am getting much better with using force trim now that I have spent several days focusing only on cold starts,  take offs, cruising around, and landings. Finally got to where I can get half decent landing from a hover. I would still though gladly use a trimmer reset function at times. Getting close to start learning some weapons and combat along with working with George, but still want to give it a little longer till I get even more comfortable with using force trims and especially landings. 

On and I ended up with using the central position trimmer option I think it is called for joysticks with springs. For both cyclic and pedals.

 

3 minutes ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

Ka50 has rudder/yaw trim and has option for rudder pedal trim in special options.  I think most folks just aren’t grasping the scas system in the Apache, as it seems like a more in depth system modeling wise and as Apache is early access I doubt it’s complete.  Reset trimmer option shouldn’t be a drama but I haven’t seen any reason for it in the stick time in Apache.  The SME’s have some cool posts talking about this stuff, and ya the early access manual is a bit lacking on the subject….

What is this "The SME's" I see folks referencing? Probably dumb question on my part.

 


Edited by dburne

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22 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well I am getting much better with using force trim now that I have spent several days focusing only on cold starts,  take offs, cruising around, and landings. Finally got to where I can get half decent landing from a hover. I would still though gladly use a trimmer reset function at times. Getting close to start learning some weapons and combat along with working with George, but still want to give it a little longer till I get even more comfortable with using force trims and especially landings. 

On and I ended up with using the central position trimmer option I think it is called for joysticks with springs. For both cyclic and pedals.

 

What is this "The SME's" I see folks referencing? Probably dumb question on my part.

 

 


another thread Brad and Raptor9 where talking about the SCAS system have to find it

The heading hold thread and the commentary from Brad and Raptor9 did a good bit of getting my brain on track with the Apache system 


Edited by rcjonessnp175

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1 hour ago, launchpad72 said:

When setting the force trim I noticed that when set the controls wont move until you release them. Agree when using the trim I crash almost 90% of the time.

You can try using the "Instant Trim" setting, but it takes a little getting used to.

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I've asked this before but no one answered but what is the expected outcome of a trim reset? What state does it reset to? 

Scenario: your spinning around with your nose down and will likely crash soon. You hit this reset trim button. Then what? I would assume it would put the trim as if no forces are acting on the aircraft, as in before take off. But that won't help. You'll possibly spin violently either the other way or even increase you existing spin and shoot up towards the sky. You'll go from one unfortunate situation to another, possibly worse.

I think some of you are expecting an auto trim button, press it and everything magically rights its self. The existing force trim can work like that, you just need to use your flying skills a little, press and release and recentre the controls (spring centering stick and rudders). It's a very simple and effective system for what I use (TM tca stick and logitech pedals).

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6 hours ago, dburne said:

"Clip"

On and I ended up with using the central position trimmer option I think it is called for joysticks with springs. For both cyclic and pedals.

 

What is this "The SME's" I see folks referencing? Probably dumb question on my part.

 

 

A "SME" is a Subject Matter Expert.  In this case, AH-64 Pilots.


Edited by Sarge55

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1 hour ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I've asked this before but no one answered but what is the expected outcome of a trim reset? What state does it reset to? 

Scenario: your spinning around with your nose down and will likely crash soon. You hit this reset trim button. Then what? I would assume it would put the trim as if no forces are acting on the aircraft, as in before take off. But that won't help. You'll possibly spin violently either the other way or even increase you existing spin and shoot up towards the sky. You'll go from one unfortunate situation to another, possibly worse.

I think some of you are expecting an auto trim button, press it and everything magically rights its self. The existing force trim can work like that, you just need to use your flying skills a little, press and release and recentre the controls (spring centering stick and rudders). It's a very simple and effective system for what I use (TM tca stick and logitech pedals).

Trim reset is supposed to do just that - reset it to its original position. In all the helicopters in DCS, you're supposed to hold down the trim button and release it when you feel comfortable with how well positioned the cyclic is; Its held in place via a magnetic brake. Trim reset disconnects that magnetic brake from the cyclic and returns to zero. You state to use your skills to get it back to its zero position by trimming the aircraft...how do you know its back to its zero'ed position? Dont say the Rctrl+enter controls key. As much as I believe it should be there, should only be there for troubleshooting, not during gameplay.

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Trim reset is supposed to do just that - reset it to its original position. In all the helicopters in DCS, you're supposed to hold down the trim button and release it when you feel comfortable with how well positioned the cyclic is; Its held in place via a magnetic brake. Trim reset disconnects that magnetic brake from the cyclic and returns to zero. You state to use your skills to get it back to its zero position by trimming the aircraft...how do you know its back to its zero'ed position? Dont say the Rctrl+enter controls key. As much as I believe it should be there, should only be there for troubleshooting, not during gameplay.
Yep exactly. Without the control indicator, it's impossible to know. So the reset button is needed for those that want to play without the indicator up.

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2 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Trim reset is supposed to do just that - reset it to its original position. In all the helicopters in DCS, you're supposed to hold down the trim button and release it when you feel comfortable with how well positioned the cyclic is; Its held in place via a magnetic brake. Trim reset disconnects that magnetic brake from the cyclic and returns to zero. You state to use your skills to get it back to its zero position by trimming the aircraft...how do you know its back to its zero'ed position? Dont say the Rctrl+enter controls key. As much as I believe it should be there, should only be there for troubleshooting, not during gameplay.

No I mean use your skills to get the aircraft situation to one you can comfortably fly. So if your spinning, apply rudder to counter, get your steering cue straight, get you vertical speed close to zero, ensure little roll or pitch is happening, then press and release the force trim and return your stick and rudder to center. It works very well for me, hence why I am struggling to understand this need for a "reset trim". To me that means reset the trim to nominal, as in when no forces are acting on the aircraft which you won't ever have in flight. What you describe however sounds very much like what we already have. 

 

I've never use Rctrl+enter.

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I will say I am getting more comfortable with the trim system we have in place now, but you can easily get disoriented and throw it way out of whack; trim too far to one side and you have no room for error, and its very easily able to get trimmed way out of whack unintentionally. Ive at least 100 hours in all the other helicopters in DCS and I have  MAD amount of hours in the Huey...never had trimmed a helicopter so far out of whack where I couldnt recover it by holding the trim and strangling my cyclic. Ive unintentionally more than once trimmed the Apache to the right or left 100% more than once scratching my head the whole time. Oddly enough, all the other aircraft have a trim reset button too.


Edited by Hammer1-1

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Yep, I think I'm comfortable with the way the trim system works now.  (Except for the transfer when taking control back from George, but that's in another thread, and an EA thing atm, apparently.)

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3 hours ago, Sarge55 said:

A "SME" is a Subject Matter Expert.  In this case, AH-64 Pilots.

 

Got it thanks much!

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4 hours ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

I've asked this before but no one answered but what is the expected outcome of a trim reset? What state does it reset to? 

Scenario: your spinning around with your nose down and will likely crash soon. You hit this reset trim button. Then what? I would assume it would put the trim as if no forces are acting on the aircraft, as in before take off. But that won't help. You'll possibly spin violently either the other way or even increase you existing spin and shoot up towards the sky. You'll go from one unfortunate situation to another, possibly worse.

I think some of you are expecting an auto trim button, press it and everything magically rights its self. The existing force trim can work like that, you just need to use your flying skills a little, press and release and recentre the controls (spring centering stick and rudders). It's a very simple and effective system for what I use (TM tca stick and logitech pedals).

Trim reset is a way to ensure that you know your cyclic and pedal would be back in neutral corresponding to their original positions for people with spring-based stick and rudder pedal without having to cross check with the joystick diagram on the screen.  
 

Its used will be situational (a backup mechanism if you will) to help get you out of hairy situations or to just reset back to the original state so you would ensure the device is always back at zero x and y position when you let go. 
 

As Redkite illustrated in his video, force trim up at +50% won’t allow you to pull beyond -50% in the other direction. Unless you have the joystick diagram up all the time you might not realize that this has happened, and a quick trim reset coupled with cyclic manipulation can help.  Now in ideal situations this shouldn’t happen, but things that can happen do happen at unfortunate times.

 

Not everybody does things the exact same way. Ultimately, the customers are kings and there should always be option to accommodate various styles of play to keep people happy.  Similarly, there are also folks who don’t or can’t use rudder pedals for various reasons, so don’t literally expect them to do so. Instead providing methods that can help make things easier is the proper way to do business. After all this is just a game. 


Edited by Supmua
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1 hour ago, Supmua said:

Trim reset is a way to ensure that you know your cyclic and pedal would be back in neutral corresponding to their original positions for people with spring-based stick and rudder pedal without having to cross check with the joystick diagram on the screen.  
 

Its used will be situational (a backup mechanism if you will) to help get you out of hairy situations or to just reset back to the original state so you would ensure the device is always back at zero x and y position when you let go. 
 

As Redkite illustrated in his video, force trim up at +50% won’t allow you to pull beyond -50% in the other direction. Unless you have the joystick diagram up all the time you might not realize that this has happened, and a quick trim reset coupled with cyclic manipulation can help.  Now in ideal situations this shouldn’t happen, but things that can happen do happen at unfortunate times.

 

Not everybody does things the exact same way. Ultimately, the customers are kings and there should always be option to accommodate various styles of play to keep people happy.  Similarly, there are also folks who don’t or can’t use rudder pedals for various reasons, so don’t literally expect them to do so. Instead providing methods that can help make things easier is the proper way to do business. After all this is just a game. 

 

Thanks for the reply. I will try and keep this easy to understand if anything for my own benefit. 

 

Take two graphs, both with x and y going from -10 to 10. One is for your trim position the other for aircraft state. At take off before any torque is added both are at 0,0. You take off and enter a cruise where you have had to trim. Now the trim graph is say at 3,4 but the state graph is back at 0,0. Level trimmed flight. Now you get into a situation maybe by changing the torque and start spinning and hit the trim rest button. The trim returns to 0,0 but what about the aircraft state? Its now very different to before take off, different torque, attitude, altitude, effects on control surfaces etc. So as the trim returns to 0,0 the aircraft state might go to -6,-8 or something. Could put you in a worse situation.

 

Cam use any numbers you want for the example it's not important, but what is is how the state of the aircraft changes when you reset trim. It could make any situation far worse. 

 

I have spring base stick and rudders, I have never used the diagram. I just control the aircraft using stick amd rudder to achieve level flight and hit force trim and recenter the stick and rudders. Works very well.  If I start to spin one way I use my rudders to counter it till I'm am no longer spinning and hit and trim. I basically trim all the time. 

 

Edit: if the trim reset does not affect the aircraft state then I can see how it would benefit those that have "run out of trim" so to speak. Can't see it helping anyone get out of a hairy situation, you will still need to counter. 


Edited by shrimpy_dikdik
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I said before that I was done arguing with people that don't see why a trim reset is useful, but apparently I have little self-control in this regard, so here goes...

Top 3 Reasons Why I Want a Trim Reset:

  1. All the other helicopters in DCS that I have flown have it, and that is what I am used to.  It doesn't hurt anybody to make it available here as well.
  2. Resetting the trim to 0,0 means that my joystick position is exactly where I expect it to be.  It is a known state.  This re-establishes a 1:1 relationship with my joystick to the controls in the game. There may be a split second where the attitude of the aircraft is jostled, but then in the next spit second I know exactly where I need to move the stick to get the aircraft to do what I want it to do.
  3. I'm here to fly an Apache, not play a joystick management simulator.  I'm not interested in micro-managing the relationship between my joystick and the virtual stick with a bunch of back and forth movements from center.

 

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1 hour ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

two graphs, both with x and y going from -10 to 10. One is for your trim position the other for aircraft state. At take off before any torque is added both are at 0,0. You take off and enter a cruise where you have had to trim. Now the trim graph is say at 3,4 but the state graph is back at 0,0. Level trimmed flight. Now you get into a situation maybe by changing the torque and start spinning and hit the trim rest button. The trim returns to 0,0 but what about the aircraft state? Its now very different to before take off, different torque, attitude, altitude, effects on control surfaces etc. So as the trim returns to 0,0 the aircraft state might go to -6,-8 or something. Could put you in a worse situation.

 

Cam use any numbers you want for the example it's not important, but what is is how the state of the aircraft changes when you reset trim. It could make any situation far worse. 

 

I can postulate a situation where using the existing trim controls could put you in a worse situation, but that's not a good argument against having trim controls. I think everyone understands that a reset trim button is not a get-out-of-jail-free card that will always save you in a situation where you have already lost control, though I would argue that there can be value to returning your stick to a known position in an out-of-control situation, because you immediately regain access to the full range of cyclic/AT input in every direction, which is a thing that you can't have as long as the controls are trimmed. As I mentioned up-thread, access to the full range of control input is a thing that real Apache pilots always have, so virtual pilots are already flying with a handicap, and helicopters are difficult enough to fly without adding additional challenges to the mix. Additionally, real Apache pilots always know the position to which they have trimmed their controls, because the controls remain in that position. They don't have to try to remember where the controls are trimmed to like we do. 

Anyway, I think the ideal use case for a reset button is preventing yourself from losing control in the first place. And there are lots of situations where it's just useful in general, because the neutral control position (in both the game and real life) is not some random thing that has no relevance to flying. It's a place that the controls are going to be constantly returning to, or passing through, as you transition from one mode of flight to another. Need to transition from cruise to hover? You are going to be pulling your cyclic back to (and eventually through) that 0,0 position. Need to transition from hover to cruise? You are going to be bringing your anti-torque pedals back to neutral. A neutral control position is a touchstone that you pass through constantly; having an input that allows you to easily find it whenever you need to seems like a decent compromise to having a trim system that is (unavoidably) considerably harder to use than the trim system in the real aircraft. 

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40 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

I said before that I was done arguing with people that don't see why a trim reset is useful, but apparently I have little self-control in this regard, so here goes...

Top 3 Reasons Why I Want a Trim Reset:

  1. All the other helicopters in DCS that I have flown have it, and that is what I am used to.  It doesn't hurt anybody to make it available here as well.
  2. Resetting the trim to 0,0 means that my joystick position is exactly where I expect it to be.  It is a known state.  This re-establishes a 1:1 relationship with my joystick to the controls in the game. There may be a split second where the attitude of the aircraft is jostled, but then in the next spit second I know exactly where I need to move the stick to get the aircraft to do what I want it to do.
  3. I'm here to fly an Apache, not play a joystick management simulator.  I'm not interested in micro-managing the relationship between my joystick and the virtual stick with a bunch of back and forth movements from center.

 

Yes this is exactly my point, this way I don't have to look at the darn diagram every time to make sure my cyclic or pedal is really back in the original neutral position.  I don't really want to fly with that window open.  It is meant to help prevent me from getting into trouble in the first place, since not everybody is a skilled pilot.

 

BTW, there's already a built-in cheat mode for trimming.  With pedals for example, assign button inputs for rudder left and right.  When you want a slight adjustment just tap the corresponding input then trim hold right after and it will stick, hassle free.  This is better than central trimming since you can dial in extra input right away without waiting for the pedal or stick to spring back to the center.  This is also better than the other trimming mode since it will not add sustained input right after.  Same thing with cyclic controls, for those who want to use them.  Personally I only use it with pedals and only in long flights.  For hovering and landing it's mostly manual control for me at least until I've achieved hovering state.

 

Also for those who fly with FSSB R3, the force trim and trim reset are also built-in and configurable in the software...and works wonderfully.


Edited by Supmua
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As a real pilot, I’ve never flown an aircraft that has a “trim reset”,  nor have I ever had a need for one, nor can I imagine a need for one. If you suddenly “reset the trim” in an aircraft in flight, that would create one of the most dangerous situations I can imagine. Trim alleviates aerodynamic forces from the flight controls. Also, the trim indicators on many aircraft are unreliable. You trim the aircraft for its current state by feel and adjust as you fly. The Apache works the same way. I’m not sure what everyone here is after, but I think there is some “overthinking” going on.


Edited by davidrbarnette
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I am just trying to understand why a reset would be useful, and because it's in previous modules really isn't a valid reason. 

If it detaches from the controls, as in you press it and trim returns to 0,0 whilst your aircraft situation remains as it was (spinning wildy out of control possibly) then I can see an advantage that it gives you more trim to work with. You'll still need to actually fly and correct the spin, but this gives more room to do so. Perhaps an option that the force trim also resets the trim might work for those that want it.  

If it is connected to the controls, as in you press it and the trim returns to 0,0 and the control surfaces return to how they were at 0,0 then its more harm than good. You'll be thrown all over the place. 

If you are looking for a magic button that stops you spinning, rights the aircraft and zero's the trim (and some have given the impression they want this) then I think an Airbus H145 with FBW is probably more for you. 

I'm not here to argue, everyone plays the game the way they want to. Personally I find the current trim solution excellent after a bit of practice. 

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If you end up needing an immediate “reset”, you’ve done something wrong. The process is: go from ground to hover, trim. Go from hover to forward flight, trim. Go from forward flight to hover, trim. Each time you change the attitude or power of the aircraft, you should be trimming. “Resetting” would snap the flight control pressures back an unpredictable amount, possibly causing a loss of control. That’s how a real aircraft works.


Edited by davidrbarnette
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5 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

If you end up needing an immediate “reset”, you’ve done something wrong. The process is: go from ground to hover, trim. Go from hover to forward flight, trim. Go from forward flight to hover, trim. Each time you change the attitude or power of the aircraft, you should be trimming. “Resetting” would snap the flight control pressures back an unpredictable amount, possibly causing a loss of control. That’s how a real aircraft works.

 

Fact, and add to it folks just not grasping how the Apache works with its scas system.  Anyways flys great for me, folks should pay attention to the SME’s posts and truly understand the words they say….

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Ultimately, here’s the question: what good does this “exactly centered” control setup (provided by a “reset”) do for you? If the chopper is hovering, and you are properly trimmed, it doesn’t matter if the stick is “centered” or not… as a matter of fact, a centered stick will likely work against your hover. What you want is the stick to have zero control pressure, regardless of its hypothetical position in DCS. Anyway… whatever floats your boat. Everyone should be able to play how they want, but for those who want to know how planes/helos are actually flown, that’s how it works. The real pilot doesn’t really sweat if the stick is “centered”.


Edited by davidrbarnette
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I would have the Option from the first Ka-50 Trimm. Where u had a time x to recenter the trim. Before the Trimm kicks in. Also not blocking the movement before center . More like the FFB version. But with a time center of 3 seconds or so


Edited by Schlomo1933
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vor 21 Minuten schrieb davidrbarnette:

As a real pilot, I’ve never flown an aircraft that has a “trim reset”,  nor have I ever had a need for one, nor can I imagine a need for one. 

As a virtual pilot I don't get your argument. These are not real planes / helicopters. It doesn't really matter if a "trim reset" is needed in a real helicopter, because this is not a real helicopter. Therefor you argument has no merit here.

Most of us use spring centered joysticks. They are different from real cyclics used in real helicopters. Therefor we need a sort of "crutch" to make our spring centered joysticks work with a virtual helicopter that thinks we are using a real cyclic.

The "center trim mode" is also not used by real helicopters. It is also a "crutch" to make spring centered joysticks work. If that option has made it into the game why not an equally unrealistic "trim reset"?

vor 4 Minuten schrieb davidrbarnette:

Ultimately, here’s the question: what good does this “exactly centered” control setup (provided by a “reset”) do for you? 

It's really simple: The physical joystick in front of me and the virtual cyclic in the Apache cockpit are at the same position when I start the Apache. The moment I start trimming the virtual cyclic in any direction, my physical joystick and my virtual cyclic are no longer in sync. They are at different positions. I know where the position of my physical joystick is, because I can feel it and (if not using VR) I can look at it and easily see where it is. Without using the ingame control overlay I can only guess where the virtual cyclic is. After having used trim a couple of times in different directions, I am pretty sure that not even a real pilot is able to tell where it is. There are situations (e.g. extreme trimming to one axis) where you want to be able to get physical joystick and virtual cyclic back into the same centered position. That's where a "trim reset" button would be very helpful. 

I am aware of the problem an abrupt "trim reset" may cause during flight. I have flown Huey, MI-24P and KA-50 in DCS. And I have made use of their "trim reset" buttons. I know what they do midflight and I know what to expect.  

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