Force Trim

[Mell]

Force TRIM is a very easy concept if you have flown helicopters before.  If you have come to the Apache from an aircraft it will take some getting used to.

 

I would also recommend utilising the free two weeks trial and learn the huey.  It is easy to start and uses a cyclic trim.  Set it as centre trimming position and DO NOT set trim on the pedals.

 

Then use the Shark for two weeks, the trim there is different and learn that.  Set for centre trim and do not trim the pedals!!

 

Then when you have the idea try the Apache, set for centre trim, also the rudder pedals are trimmed too, but the control is similar to the shark.  You DO NOT NEED  A TRIMMER RESET!!! There is a position that allows you to change the trim in a similar way to the shark, if you ever hit reset in the shark or if there is one added to the Apache to make it EASY for people then you will find it will cause you many problems.  Try going fwd in the shark and hitting the reset trim, see what happens.

 

Inputs are minimal and once you learn the above choppers the techniques can be utilised in the Apache...

 

Not sure how to use the Huey/Shark?  pop on by on twitch and ask.  Mell12345

[agamemnon_b5]

22 minutes ago, Mell said:

You DO NOT NEED  A TRIMMER RESET!!! There is a position that allows you to change the trim in a similar way to the shark, if you ever hit reset in the shark or if there is one added to the Apache to make it EASY for people then you will find it will cause you many problems.

The people asking for a reset are coming from using them on birds like the Hind and the Shark.  They know how to handle the drastic pitch change.

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Dlam1995 said:

So I'm probably going to add a bit to this that might already have been covered, but has anyone noticed a very weird tendency for the Apache to just want to bank left no matter what?

 

I am still very early in the learning process, basically now just working on my take offs, flying around a bit, and landings. Both rolling and from a hover. While I find trimming in flight to be somewhat difficult to get the Apache really centered, can't say I notice a consistent roll to the left or to the right. But oftentimes I find myself trying to trim for center because it is rolling a little in either direction.  Definitely as you add cyclic the chopper will tend to roll right the more you add and need to compensate for that. Likewise as you decrease cyclic it will tend to roll to the left. At least that is what I have found so far.

Edited March 26, 2022 by dburne

[Floyd1212]

Think if it like the hand-brake in your car... 

Everyone knows not to pull it when you are driving down the highway at 60 mph.  But if you know how to use it at the right time, and in the right conditions, it can take your drifting skills to another level.  Maybe some people shouldn't use it, and just leave it there for the experts.

(Disclaimer: I am not an expert; at flying the Apache, or drifting.)

[Hammer1-1]

It does roll a lot in its longitudinal axis, doesnt it...why is that?

[cfrag]

8 hours ago, Mell said:

Force TRIM is a very easy concept if you have flown helicopters before

It's an easy concept, full stop. Every one understands trim. At discussion here is the particular design that ED chose to transition a real-world feedback-based control loop to a unidirectional control-based game world. As with many designs, some like it, others disagree and put forward their own preferences. There is no 'correct' way to do it, just approximations. This thread is not about people's lack of understanding the physics. It's about their UI likes and dislikes.

 

8 hours ago, Mell said:

You DO NOT NEED  A TRIMMER RESET!!!

We also don't need DCS, and yet, we enjoy it. It's not about needs, it's about preferences.

 

8 hours ago, Mell said:

try the Apache, set for centre trim,

'Center Trim' is pure fantasy, does not exist in the real world, and is a clever attempt at solving the problem of the missing feedback loop. It works for some people, others don't like it. Hence they propose an alternative. That way everyone wins.

 

[petsild]

There is an immediate solution if you own a VKB Joy, with Device Config you can use the current X, Y and Z axis offset as a button trim and reset with the second button.

It is even possible to set a smooth reset transition, ie the absence of a sudden deviation of the flight direction.

 

Source: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3501

[SGT Coyle]

4 hours ago, petsild said:

There is an immediate solution if you own a VKB Joy, with Device Config you can use the current X, Y and Z axis offset as a button trim and reset with the second button.

It is even possible to set a smooth reset transition, ie the absence of a sudden deviation of the flight direction.

 

Source: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3501

The same exits for Warthog with TARGET SE. 
I'm gonna try it this weekend and see if it makes a difference with how I interact with the sim.  The issue, if it were to be my preferred method, is that it won't allow the sim to interact with it.  i.e. The "Attitude and Altitude hold" functionality.  If you apply trim to your input, the sim trim system won't be active, and activating Attitude or Altitude holds won't do anything or if it were to I see disastrous effects.

Edited March 26, 2022 by SGT Coyle

[Magic Man]

The simple solution is to just add a reset option that works. I don't want to have the axis viewer on screen to see where my trimmed values are.

[kdfw]

for those with vkb sticks, this works great--this force trim bypasses the 3 choices in the ah64 sim.  press button to force trim (locks x,y,z), button release+time delay releases x,y,z to stick (give you time to recenter the stick).  'trim release' button press centers to 0,0,0.   

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by kdfw

[fencible]

I think ED should provide the same 'Default' trim option that the other DCS helicopters have. Everyone knows how to use that setting, and it works well. There is currently no option to avoid using force trim in the pedals, and perhaps this is a real limitation with the AH-64D, but I would much rather have no trim at all on the pedals. It is possible to turn off all force trim in the Apache from an in-cockpit configuration page, but you really need trim on the cyclic stick. I can fly the AH-64D comfortably as it is, using the force-feedback friendly setting, but it does not feel right, and I find it difficult to transition trim for landings.

[exil]

7 minutes ago, fencible said:

I think ED should provide the same 'Default' trim option that the other DCS helicopters have. Everyone knows how to use that setting, and it works well. There is currently no option to avoid using force trim in the pedals, and perhaps this is a real limitation with the AH-64D, but I would much rather have no trim at all on the pedals. It is possible to turn off all force trim in the Apache from an in-cockpit configuration page, but you really need trim on the cyclic stick. I can fly the AH-64D comfortably as it is, using the force-feedback friendly setting, but it does not feel right, and I find it difficult to transition trim for landings.

The no trim option is there for pedals. 

[Raptor9]

7 minutes ago, fencible said:

I think ED should provide the same 'Default' trim option that the other DCS helicopters have. Everyone knows how to use that setting, and it works well.

The AH-64D's "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" is the exact same thing as "Default" trim in the other helicopters.  Only the naming of it has changed.

8 minutes ago, fencible said:

There is currently no option to avoid using force trim in the pedals, and perhaps this is a real limitation with the AH-64D, but I would much rather have no trim at all on the pedals.

Set your pedals to the third option, it will provide the "no trimming" effect to the pedals.

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

The AH-64D's "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" is the exact same thing as "Default" trim in the other helicopters.  Only the naming of it has changed.

 

No it's not, it's designed for FFB sticks as default. Was told by shagrat it was due in error to make it default, so it'll be changed next time around hopefully... but it's nothing like trim in other helicopters. That default is the exact same as the Ka50 with FFB joysticks.

[dburne]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The AH-64D's "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" is the exact same thing as "Default" trim in the other helicopters.  Only the naming of it has changed.

Set your pedals to the third option, it will provide the "no trimming" effect to the pedals.

 

Yep - this is what I did for my Crosswind Pedals with Damper Mod and no spring. Working fine for me. Force trim only affects my Cyclic, not the pedals.

Edited March 26, 2022 by dburne

[Raptor9]

47 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

No it's not, it's designed for FFB sticks as default. Was told by shagrat it was due in error to make it default, so it'll be changed next time around hopefully... but it's nothing like trim in other helicopters. That default is the exact same as the Ka50 with FFB joysticks.

Try flying the Ka-50 in Default trim and then the Apache in Instant Trim, I'm telling you it's the same.  But believe whatever you want, it doesn't matter to me. 

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

Try flying the Ka-50 in Default trim and then the Apache in Instant Trim, I'm telling you it's the same.  But believe whatever you want, it doesn't matter to me. 

Thats...exactly what I said it was. Thats why I fly both of them in Central Trim Mode cyclic only and non spring rudder pedals. EVEN STILL, the Ka50 has a trim release button. Dont know why we keep reiterating this...

Edited March 26, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[dburne]

50 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Thats...exactly what I said it was. Thats why I fly both of them in Central Trim Mode cyclic only and non spring rudder pedals. EVEN STILL, the Ka50 has a trim release button. Dont know why we keep reiterating this...

 

 

Well the nice thing is ED has already stated a trim release will be coming for the Apache. So for those that want it they will have it as an option.

[fencible]

3 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The AH-64D's "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" is the exact same thing as "Default" trim in the other helicopters.  Only the naming of it has changed.

Set your pedals to the third option, it will provide the "no trimming" effect to the pedals.

yes, this is what I have been doing for the cyclic. I will try your suggestion for the pedals.

[Magic Man]

What part does the FMC release button play in this?

[agamemnon_b5]

3 hours ago, Magic Man said:

What part does the FMC release button play in this?

It completely disables your flight computer.  Don't even map it; there really isn't a situation in DCS you'd ever use it.

[Whisper]

18 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

No it's not, it's designed for FFB sticks as default. Was told by shagrat it was due in error to make it default, so it'll be changed next time around hopefully... but it's nothing like trim in other helicopters. That default is the exact same as the Ka50 with FFB joysticks.

Changed to what default behavior? Because the current Apache "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" behaves the same as all the other "Default" in the other choppers to me. What exactly makes the Apache ""INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)"" different?

I don't see the "it's nothing like trim in other helicopters" part AT ALL on my side. It took me zero second to adapt because it was behaving in the same way (only talking about cyclic trimming, here)

Edited March 27, 2022 by Whisper

[Hammer1-1]

26 minutes ago, Whisper said:

Changed to what default behavior? Because the current Apache "INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)" behaves the same as all the other "Default" in the other choppers to me. What exactly makes the Apache ""INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly)"" different?

I don't see the "it's nothing like trim in other helicopters" part AT ALL on my side. It took me zero second to adapt because it was behaving in the same way (only talking about cyclic trimming, here)

 

I dont recall a single moment since 2013 when the Huey released where I trimmed my helicopter into an uncommanded roll in any direction. I dont recall ever doing that in the Mi8 either. Probably because Ive never had experienced the aircraft to automatically command itself to roll FURTHER into the trim at the moment of releasing the trim button. You can also take into account the helicopter handles differently from all the other helicopters in DCS; it likes to swing side to side like a chandelier. I can keep going with this, because everything adds up. As I said its exactly like the Ka50 trim system BUT STILL DOESNT HAVE  A TRIMMER RESET. You know, the one thing every other helicopter in DCS has. Just stop with this.

[Whisper]

It happens all the time if you don't go back to center fast enough. The only difference is the delay you have to do it

[Hammer1-1]

Ok; Im still flying in central trimmer mode with the Apache and Ka50. Ive got 10 hours in cockpit just flying it and Im definitely getting better at it and havent crashed it since Day 1. Not everyone has the benefit of having as much time as I do right now to study this wonderful module, believe me Im learning.

The trimmer functions as to hold the stick into position the moment of release. The trimmer function in the Apache includes a continued movement FURTHER AWAY from that point of release at the same distance away from center to the distance from release of trim; if that happens to be 5 degrees, your stick will automatically carry over to 10 degrees the moment you release that button. As Casmo stated in his video, he agrees with you, but you have to trim in small increments. I dont believe that works for everyone at first.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Hammer1-1