Force Trim

[dburne]

13 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I dont recall a single moment since 2013 when the Huey released where I trimmed my helicopter into an uncommanded roll in any direction. I dont recall ever doing that in the Mi8 either. Probably because Ive never had experienced the aircraft to automatically command itself to roll FURTHER into the trim at the moment of releasing the trim button. You can also take into account the helicopter handles differently from all the other helicopters in DCS; it likes to swing side to side like a chandelier. I can keep going with this, because everything adds up. As I said its exactly like the Ka50 trim system BUT STILL DOESNT HAVE  A TRIMMER RESET. You know, the one thing every other helicopter in DCS has. Just stop with this.

I already have a button on my stick reserved for trim reset for when ED adds it.

[Whisper]

To each his own, no pb with that

Central trimmer bugs on me (DCS often do not recognise that the stick is back at center, leaving me with a dead stick).

I just don't understand the hyperbole behind describing the apache trim as totally alien to the other DCS helicopters. Technically, the diff isn't that much (there's very short delay in Mi8 before the trim kicks in in default mode, and afaik that is all that differs, and yes, I think they could easily put it in the Apache, but I'm no DCS dev, so... ) between the trim implementations.

Like you say, add it to the general Apache twitchness and the result can appear violent, and thus I'm not sure how a trimmer reset will solve issues. It's going to be a very violent reset, actually, seeing how reactive the Apache is to input.

Wouldn't working on a delay and a more dampened input be better?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I already have a button on my stick reserved for trim reset for when ED adds it.

I was thinking of sacrificing “disengage hold for all” for ‘trim reset’ in my 4 way hat since Alt hold and Att hold can each be disengaged by reselecting them, if I am not wrong.

[Hammer1-1]

15 minutes ago, Whisper said:

To each his own, no pb with that

Central trimmer bugs on me (DCS often do not recognise that the stick is back at center, leaving me with a dead stick).

I just don't understand the hyperbole behind describing the apache trim as totally alien to the other DCS helicopters. Technically, the diff isn't that much (there's very short delay in Mi8 before the trim kicks in in default mode, and afaik that is all that differs, and yes, I think they could easily put it in the Apache, but I'm no DCS dev, so... ) between the trim implementations.

Like you say, add it to the general Apache twitchness and the result can appear violent, and thus I'm not sure how a trimmer reset will solve issues. It's going to be a very violent reset, actually, seeing how reactive the Apache is to input.

Wouldn't working on a delay and a more dampened input be better?

Honestly, wish it had a trimmer button like the Mi-8 that functions like any other aircraft: keep holding the trim button down without moving the stick and release when you're satisfied. Hell you can trim the Mi8 from 3 rotary knobs on the center console and fly it from there. Thats a trim Id like to see, seeing how that the UH60 functions similarly like that from what Ive heard from other blackhawk pilots. Alas, the apache doesnt have that system, so gotta deal with the mud when praying for rain.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Raptor9]

@Hammer1-1, the different responses from trimming you are experiencing between other helicopters and the DCS AH-64D is due to the differences in the flight control servos and flight computer logic of the AH-64D, not how it is simulating force trim.  As I stated previously, the force trim simulation is the same as the other helicopters in DCS.  Yes, it does not currently have a trim reset option, but that has nothing to do with how the force trim modes actually behave. You are convoluting the flight management computer/SCAS functions of the simulated aircraft with how DCS is simulating force trim in this module.

It's when people say that the trimmer in the Ka-50 is fighting their control inputs. It's not the force trim system, it's a misunderstanding of the autopilot logic of the Ka-50.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Raptor9

[Hammer1-1]

2 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

@Hammer1-1, the different responses from trimming you are experiencing between other helicopters and the DCS AH-64D is due to the differences in the flight control servos and flight computer logic of the AH-64D, not how it is simulating force trim.  As I stated previously, the force trim simulation is the same as the other helicopters in DCS.  Yes, it does not currently have a trim reset option, but that has nothing to do with how the trimming modes actually behave. You are convoluting the flight management computer/SCAS functions of the simulated aircraft with how DCS is simulating force trim in this module.

It's when people say that the trimmer in the Ka-50 is fighting their control inputs. It's not the trimming system, it's a misunderstanding of the autopilot logic of the Ka-50.

Again, I dont think in the real thing that when you click the trim button at 5 degrees pitch down you automatically add 5 degrees on top of that instantly after hitting the button. I fully understand how it works: you hit the button, your cyclic stays in that place via mechanical means. Thats not what its doing; its doing 5 degrees additionally instantly the moment of release because its accounting for your joystick having already moved 5 degrees forward from its new center when thats not the case.  For a FFB stick, ABSOLUTELY! 100% WORKS. Thats how ALL helicopters work. I GET IT. Ive a lot of toys here; none of them are FFB. I wish it was! I think all the time about getting an FFB sidewinder off ebay all the time because this is how they are meant to be flown. Believe me I GET IT. Until I get one, central trimmer mode all the way for the stick.

[dburne]

28 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I was thinking of sacrificing “disengage hold for all” for ‘trim reset’ in my 4 way hat since Alt hold and Att hold can each be disengaged by reselecting them, if I am not wrong.

You don't have to sacrifice that button, just add a modifier to use with that button and you can have it for both trim reset and Alt/Att holds. I have a button on my CM3 throttle dedicated as a modifier button so I just press it to use with the button on my joystick, greatly increases the functions that can be assigned to those buttons.

Edited March 27, 2022 by dburne

[Raptor9]

33 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Again, I dont think in the real thing that when you click the trim button at 5 degrees pitch down you automatically add 5 degrees on top of that instantly after hitting the button. I fully understand how it works: you hit the button, your cyclic stays in that place via mechanical means. Thats not what its doing; its doing 5 degrees additionally instantly the moment of release because its accounting for your joystick having already moved 5 degrees forward from its new center when thats not the case.  For a FFB stick, ABSOLUTELY! 100% WORKS. Thats how ALL helicopters work. I GET IT. Ive a lot of toys here; none of them are FFB.

No, I don't think you get it. If you were to get into any other helo module in DCS (exception of the Gazelle since that is its own thing), enable Default trim mode, get into the cockpit, enable the controls indicator overlay, push the stick forward, press and release the force trim/"trimmer" button, you will see the same logic in the control indicator overlay that you would if you use "Instant Trim" in the DCS AH-64D.

And yes, of course that's not what happens in the real aircraft, that part is what you are correct about, but this is about the behavior DCS uses to simulate force trim for non-FFB sticks.  Again, just because Instant Trim is labeled "(FFB Friendly)", that does not mean it is only for FFB sticks. AH-64D Instant Trim is the same behavior as Default trim.

1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Honestly, wish it had a trimmer button like the Mi-8 that functions like any other aircraft: keep holding the trim button down without moving the stick and release when you're satisfied.

That's not how the Mi-8 trimmer button works either.  The Mi-8 trimmer button (force trim release, force trim interrupt, whatever one calls it) works the same as the AH-64D, as does the Ka-50's, as does the Mi-24's, as does the UH-1's.  Unless you are thinking of the trim hat on the Mi-24, but that is a separate function than the force trim release button on all the existing DCS helos.  This is just one of several indicators that you have a misunderstanding of other DCS helos as well, leading to false comparisons to the trimming system in the Apache.  And this results in you putting out incorrect information in this thread.

The AH-64D SCAS system is work in progress, but the simulated force trim system in it has the same underlying logic behind it as every other helicopter made by ED for DCS. Full stop.

[Hammer1-1]

9 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

] Unless you are thinking of the trim hat on the Mi-24, but that is a separate function

That is exactly what I was referring to, but its in the Mi8 as well. Its been a few months since I last sat in the Hind.

I know what you are saying, I know what you are implying. DCS helicopters are built around an FFB need. To fly it correctly in the mode its intended to be flown, you NEED an FFB stick. Thats the cut and dry issue I am trying to convey. All these problems would disappear if everyone had an FFB; since thats not the case, its a hardware limitation unfortunately.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[cfrag]

2 hours ago, Whisper said:

Central trimmer bugs on me (DCS often do not recognise that the stick is back at center, leaving me with a dead stick).

I was able to remedy that by adding a small deadzone to cyclic center. Not the greatest of all options, since that is exactly the region where i want most sensitivity, but that apparently is how central trim rolls. 

[MAXsenna]

6 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

That is exactly what I was referring to, but its in the Mi8 as well. Its been a few months since I last sat in the Hind.

AHA!!! So that's why I took a head dive the other day, when I was using the searchlight!

Thanks!

[Hammer1-1]

Im not sure how to take that....

[launchpad72]

I agree that force trim is an issue. They are putting in a trim that works by keeping the controls in place when used on sticks that do not lock in place. This is such a huge difference that you have to return the controls to center that the helicopter gets uncontrollable during this reset especially on landing. If my stick would hold its position it would not be a factor but since it does not the trim is flawed in a big way!! Think they need to program a way to either use force trim or a standard trim like the Hind. This would give the pilot a way to choose what works best for them depending on the stick used. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by launchpad72

[Mr_Burns]

On 3/24/2022 at 11:33 PM, Floyd1212 said:

I said before that I was done arguing with people that don't see why a trim reset is useful, but apparently I have little self-control in this regard, so here goes...

Top 3 Reasons Why I Want a Trim Reset:

1. All the other helicopters in DCS that I have flown have it, and that is what I am used to.  It doesn't hurt anybody to make it available here as well.
2. Resetting the trim to 0,0 means that my joystick position is exactly where I expect it to be.  It is a known state.  This re-establishes a 1:1 relationship with my joystick to the controls in the game. There may be a split second where the attitude of the aircraft is jostled, but then in the next spit second I know exactly where I need to move the stick to get the aircraft to do what I want it to do.
3. I'm here to fly an Apache, not play a joystick management simulator.  I'm not interested in micro-managing the relationship between my joystick and the virtual stick with a bunch of back and forth movements from center.

 

Sorry new to this discussion but am having problems with the trim, can you explain though, if you trim the aircraft to hold your desired position, once you reset it, wouldnt you just have to trim it again to get the position you were in?

I am suspecting something is wrong with my technique as my cyclic is almost always trimmed forward, which is probably why I cant reduce speed to land. Perhaps some more practice of manually resetting it and see what happens!

[whiteladder]

Wow, I think I have found a 20 page reason not to buy this module 

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, whiteladder said:

Wow, I think I have found a 20 page reason not to buy this module 

Its not that bad at all, just a few kinks to work out. Believe me, its an amazing module!

1 hour ago, Mr_Burns said:

Sorry new to this discussion but am having problems with the trim, can you explain though, if you trim the aircraft to hold your desired position, once you reset it, wouldnt you just have to trim it again to get the position you were in?

I am suspecting something is wrong with my technique as my cyclic is almost always trimmed forward, which is probably why I cant reduce speed to land. Perhaps some more practice of manually resetting it and see what happens!

I suspect you are using the default trimmer mode. Try using it in Central Trimming mode and see f that helps. Just remember to recenter your joystick when you hit trim so your stick will start being read again. The default setting makes trimming very twitchy and you can easily trim yourself into trouble if you arent careful enough...which is why this thread exists ironically.

[Flia]

I agree. Its tne Best Heli module for DCS. 

[scoobie]

40 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Believe me, its an amazing module!

Exactly! The module is great and it's a very very good EA release. On top of that it is probably the first module one of the very few modules which you can really/seriously employ at night, not only because of its sensors, but also the simple question of being able to properly dim all the cockpit panels, screens etc. - it all just works (unlike, for example, in the Hawg).

The trim issues discussed here are not bugs, it's more like an old deficiency in the helo trim system in DCS, which bit many folks only now because Apache is pretty agile, responsive, "impetuous".

FWIW, I saw a YT video where one dude showed his curves. It absolutely struck me the guy had curves of 35 (both pitch and roll). Initially I though "Naaah, civilized people don't do such wild things!", but then... I tried it and so far I've been having a really good time. Non-extended TM Warthog joystick without the main spring.

As ballpark figures (pitch, roll): 35 curves, 90 saturations Y.

It doesn't cure the trim, of course, but lets you hover nicely. On the other hand, when you want to fly vigorously, combat manouvering etc., you can still do it, but you have to accept you'll be doing it with maximum or close to maximum joystick deflection most of the time.
If anybody finds hovering somewhat too twitchy, too messy, I think it's worth a try. I'm talking to people who know how to hover, not to newcomers to helicopters (the latter folks WILL find hovering difficult in any chopper, with or without curves).

Edited March 28, 2022 by scoobie

[cfrag]

2 hours ago, whiteladder said:

Wow, I think I have found a 20 page reason not to buy this module

That's not how DCS works, you poor unspoiled child. 

You see, we buy modules just so we can get a real, honest-to-goodness righteous anger going that will power us through 20 pages of b*tching about something we don't have, only to fuel us for 20 more pages about how, after we got it, they did it wrong!!!!!!!one 

Man, I *love* DCS. All my friends in the anger management course agree. This is the best module ever. Just you wait what'll happen when we do get trim reset.

 

 

[Beirut]

3 hours ago, whiteladder said:

Wow, I think I have found a 20 page reason not to buy this module 

 

Fly this module at night with the FLIR going and you'll be sold in 20 seconds. 

 

Whatever trim issues exist, either with the Apache and/or the users, it's cutting edge flightsim goodness.

[Grizzley78]

It took me a bit to figure out how to use trim to my advantage instead of making things worse.  I have a non FFB / centering stick and I set the center selection in the special tab of the options.

Yes, you have to return the stick to center, but point being, that is the point!  Once I'm trimmed up, I don't even have to touch the controls and it flies stable and straight as an arrow (ok with some excessive crabbing, but that's WIP).  Sure, that's not the exact real-to-life behavior but I have a secret for everyone.  This is a game.  It's not real life.  Hate to be the bubble-bursting party pooper.

Seems most people that are having a lot of control issues with trim are not microtrimming.  Making these big huge 1-time inputs and messing things up.  When I'm transitioning from a trimmed hover to flight, I'm probably trimming about every 3-5 seconds until I'm in my stable forward flight.  Trim, return to center.  Trim, return to center, over and over in micro adjustments.  Same with coming in for a landing (right up until the point you transition to IGE hover which you have to be ready for or you're going to think you're on a carnival ride when you pull that collective.)

Edited March 28, 2022 by Grizzley78

[cavalier889]

This topic reminds me so much of the afterburner noise purist v feedback argument. Some say, "no way, there's no such switch it the real bird, so suck it up," while others say, "this isn't a real bird, let's have some leeway here." The purist argument is another all-or-nothing my way or the highway approach. There is no actual reason that both camps can't have what they want. Want a trim reset? Sure, here it is, but you get to figure out how you want to handle your controls snapping to center. Don't want a trim reset? Fine, don't map it. Easy.

Personally I would like a midway solution where trim reset sets a new trim to the point you're controls are physically set. That way I could kick it some rotation, throw the stick to where I want and then tap the button, and a new position is born. I'm not married to that, however, and will work with whatever ED and the community think works best.

My final thought to all of you fellow simmers is that more options are always better than fewer; just pick the ones that work best for your rig and/or skill level.

[Hammer1-1]

14 minutes ago, cavalier889 said:

This topic reminds me so much of the afterburner noise purist v feedback argument. Some say, "no way, there's no such switch it the real bird, so suck it up," while others say, "this isn't a real bird, let's have some leeway here." The purist argument is another all-or-nothing my way or the highway approach. There is no actual reason that both camps can't have what they want. Want a trim reset? Sure, here it is, but you get to figure out how you want to handle your controls snapping to center. Don't want a trim reset? Fine, don't map it. Easy.

Personally I would like a midway solution where trim reset sets a new trim to the point you're controls are physically set. That way I could kick it some rotation, throw the stick to where I want and then tap the button, and a new position is born. I'm not married to that, however, and will work with whatever ED and the community think works best.

My final thought to all of you fellow simmers is that more options are always better than fewer; just pick the ones that work best for your rig and/or skill level.

Well to be fair to both sides of the argument, all it takes is just getting used to it or switch joystick options in the special menu. Ive flown Black Shark since day 1; it took me all of 10 years to figure out I was flying it wrong...and even still had no idea I was doing it wrong until I haphazardly came across it mentioned here. Thats after having been trained by former Huey pilots, quizzed and tested on it using US Army field manuals and I never even knew I was doing it wrong. And dont quote me on those manuals; I aint seen them since 2015. Once people realize that these heli modules should be flown exclusively with FFB capable sticks, people are going to find a way to do it - mostly wrong. But what exactly can you do about it? Find a cheap Sidewinder stick on Ebay, or maybe even an old school Saitek Cyborg Evo - a stick that definitely has FFB. Give it a shot once and you'll see for yourself. Took me 1 try to learn that truth.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[dburne]

I have now gotten pretty used to using my Crosswind Pedals with Damper so I set none for the pedals, and center spring for the stick. Doing decently with it now and I don't even need the axis display any more in my VR headset. Thankfully I broke the habit of wanting to return my pedals to center after trimming. And yeah I trim in small increments.

[Swift.]

On 3/27/2022 at 6:21 PM, Raptor9 said:

No, I don't think you get it. If you were to get into any other helo module in DCS (exception of the Gazelle since that is its own thing), enable Default trim mode, get into the cockpit, enable the controls indicator overlay, push the stick forward, press and release the force trim/"trimmer" button, you will see the same logic in the control indicator overlay that you would if you use "Instant Trim" in the DCS AH-64D.

So I just tested this because I was curious about this assertation, compared UH-1H with AH-64D behaviour. What I saw was as you described: pretty much the same behaviour.

However the big and critical difference between these two aircraft is the delay between button release and 'trim set' so to say. In the Apache you have microseconds to centre the stick before it adds the input onto the new trim. In Huey on the other hand there is a noticeable delay where the control freezes, which is key to allowing the pilot to recenter the stick before it comes alive again.

So in summary, if we want the same trimming technique in apache as we have in huey, we need a slightly longer delay between button press and reactivation of the controls. Or even better, a slider option in the special menu.

 

Edit: Along a similar note, IMO it would also be manageable if the change of trim centres was smooth. So you are trimmed half back, then move the input to half forward and retrim, then instead of it instantly snapping, it will smoothly glide forward. This glide of course being at a rate that a human can match on the way back, ie 1-2 seconds. Same applies to the eventual trimmer reset.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Swift.