Force Trim

[Outlaw24]

4 hours ago, dburne said:

I have now gotten pretty used to using my Crosswind Pedals with Damper so I set none for the pedals, and center spring for the stick. Doing decently with it now and I don't even need the axis display any more in my VR headset. Thankfully I broke the habit of wanting to return my pedals to center after trimming. And yeah I trim in small increments.

Same here with my damper modified Crosswind pedals, I removed the spring and changed the setting to FFB no spring and loving it. This also works great with the  Ka-50, Mi-8 and the Huey.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Future improvements to the flight modelling (if any) to make the Apache more stable, plus auto hover, might make this trim thing less of an issue. One can get use to whatever trim suits you. It's in those weird situations when you move the controls too much, things get out of hand and whatever trim option you have 'fails' you.

I am all for the trim reset option. I never understood how the game options I select on my PC would degrade another player's realism experience thousands of miles away. Unless it gives me an unfair advantage in MP. The module is just too well made and complex to have it dumbed-down by a trim reset option. Furthermore, there are already a number of 'unrealistic' in-game options that no one is up in arms about.    

[petsild]

I use a brilliant VKB native trim that fixes the axes until you release the button.
There is no need for time lag to center, a completely simple and functional solution for all helicopters.

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, petsild said:

I use a brilliant VKB native trim that fixes the axes until you release the button.
There is no need for time lag to center, a completely simple and functional solution for all helicopters.

Oh how I hope ED can implement something like that, best of all worlds.

[Floyd1212]

Yes, I was planning on doing some trickery outside of DCS with 3rd-party software to disable the axis in the joystick for as long as I hold the designated Trim Reset button on my stick, then execute the Trim Reset command in DCS when I release the button.  This will allow me to reposition the cyclic to match where the game cyclic thinks it is, which will be the most effective way to use the Trim Reset function without unsettling the helo too much.

This is something ED could also add to the module, should they choose to do so, but we can accomplish what we want outside of DCS as well.

[petsild]

I will add that the trim reset at VKB has an adjustable delay by a combined curve, ie the time for which the axes are to be centered smoothly.

[Supmua]

With the center force trim option, I often have to pull the stick back to center myself as it can take up to one second for my stick to spring back (long extension).  Same deal with FFB force trim mode which requires letting go of pressure on the stick or pulling back to avoid extra input in that direction. 
 

A time-delayed trim might be something that would work better than the default options.  Let new positions stick when you press and release the button, but don’t allow further input right away until after half a sec or so. 
 

Now don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have new features that are not yet added to make the aircraft feature completed over the trim options any day. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Supmua

[dburne]

I am really having no trouble letting my stick get back to center with my 200 mm extension. 

[kdfw]

3 hours ago, dburne said:

I am really having no trouble letting my stick get back to center with my 200 mm extension. 

as mentioned here many times, vkb stick users have a ready solution to the trim issue:

 

[durp]

4 hours ago, dburne said:

I am really having no trouble letting my stick get back to center with my 200 mm extension. 

I had that issue, VKB with 200mm extension. Often enough I winded up with a dead stick ..and thanks to momentum and gravity... you can figure out the rest

The VKB software uses a timer for it, rather than 'center' position and as Supmua mentioned, this seems to be really a smooth and reasonable approach. Maybe ED can one day (maybe prioritize multithreading and vulkan... just saying...) implement an alternative way for the center stick option (as additional option). Something time-based. after xxx ms the controls are then moved to whatever the stick is, relative to the trimmed position. 

Tomorrow is a patch schedules that should include the trim reset, but I think I will keep the VKB version, as the timer based approach is so much smoother and even with a trimmer reset I may wind up with a dead stick.. time will tell

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by durp

[Whisper]

22 hours ago, Swift. said:

So I just tested this because I was curious about this assertation, compared UH-1H with AH-64D behaviour. What I saw was as you described: pretty much the same behaviour.

However the big and critical difference between these two aircraft is the delay between button release and 'trim set' so to say. In the Apache you have microseconds to centre the stick before it adds the input onto the new trim. In Huey on the other hand there is a noticeable delay where the control freezes, which is key to allowing the pilot to recenter the stick before it comes alive again.

So in summary, if we want the same trimming technique in apache as we have in huey, we need a slightly longer delay between button press and reactivation of the controls. Or even better, a slider option in the special menu.

 

 

 

Exactly this!

Add to this the fact that the Apache is FAR more reactive than the other helos and it makes the difference really noticeable, actually, even though it's technically minimal.

Working on this delay and if feasible, Apache twitchiness would help far more than a "trim reset" option

Edited March 29, 2022 by Whisper

[dburne]

You guys are quoting me saying I should use that other option with the VKB software but if you read the post you are quoting of mine you will see I said I have no problem centering my Gunfighter with 200 mm extension. So I am good for now... 

Should I start to have issue with it as I go I will certainly look into doing that as well. But so far so good for me.

Edited March 29, 2022 by dburne

[dburne]

New trim reset is nice to have available, thanks ED!

 

[Floyd1212]

Is there a discussion or description somewhere that I have missed about the new green symbols in the Control Indicator display?  And the translucent bounding box of some kind?

 

[imacken]

5 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Is there a discussion or description somewhere that I have missed about the new green symbols in the Control Indicator display?  And the translucent bounding box of some kind?

 

 

1 hour ago, dburne said:

New trim reset is nice to have available, thanks ED!

 

I’m struggling to see the point of a trim reset. Very happy with the way trim works.

[agamemnon_b5]

1 hour ago, imacken said:

I’m struggling to see the point of a trim reset. Very happy with the way trim works.

Understanding is not required.  It is helpful to those who have used it before and it is an option in every other helo module.

[Dannyvandelft]

I’m struggling to see the point of a trim reset. Very happy with the way trim works.

Then don't use it

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[DutchJackal]

I'm very happy with the Trim Reset! Thank you ED.

[imacken]

I’m not criticising, I’m literally saying I can’t see how it is useful. Please enlighten me. I’m obviously missing something. 

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, imacken said:

I’m not criticising, I’m literally saying I can’t see how it is useful. Please enlighten me. I’m obviously missing something. 

If you're not having trouble with trimming the aircraft into an uncommanded roll into the ground, then you really shouldnt worry about it. Its there for those of us who need a crutch to get used to how finicky this heli is as its like flying a chandelier in an earthquake.

[imacken]

Thanks for that. Under what circumstances would you use it and how? Afaics, it just jerks the trim back to a central position, causing large movements in the aircraft, rather than a more subtle approach. As I say, I’m interested in how this is used. 

[Niehorst]

Since the rollout, no need for trim reset or controls indicator and simply enjoy flying and hovering her better every day. I feel when we get the Auto-Hover, I don't want to use it anymore. Still struggling with hovering between treetops on 3 sites and quickly turn 180° to get away there quickly, without increasing altitude, if I need to. I know you shouldn't leave yourself that less options, but the maneuver itself has to be flown without wood chopping!!

What really helps is if you're not coming to helos for the first time. It takes some time to understand WHEN you really have to focus on your  FPM or VSI, the little arrow on your altimeter on IHADSS simbology. HINT: TRANSITION (especially when decreasing your speed and reaching the point where the aerodynamical lift stops and your aircraft must be held up by only engine power) If you get surprised by that effect, you'll end up in the VRS while hearing lovely betty throwing candys at you: "Rotor RPM HIGH!"

The "Rotor RPM LOW - Candy" is another thing, even sweeter, more advanced and important when you whip the Apache down a hill through a valley or some street canyons at max speed.

Both have on thing in common: It's a result of changing your collective to fast! (you got surprised by a change of flight state again!!)

What helps even more is, when you can make your pedals anti-torque pedals. (very easy with the TM TPRs + Damper mod kit) so you can keep them totally out of that "trim messing".

The most important thing: USE AN EXTENSION ON YOUR CYCLIC! (I would recommend 20cm at least!)

You can control a DCS helicopter with an unmodified Warthog or Saitek or even a Cougar. Last one I did when the BlackShark was initially released. It can work, but you'll always find yourself loosing control, will never be that precise (especially during hover and very slow speed flight) and the much more force you need will get you exhausted quiet fast. (Anybody knows how hard the springs of the TM Cougar are???)

Hope I could help out one or the other guy. Most of it is hardware related and needs some investment.

But it will pay of so much, believe me!

Edited March 31, 2022 by Niehorst

[Hammer1-1]

8 minutes ago, imacken said:

Thanks for that. Under what circumstances would you use it and how? Afaics, it just jerks the trim back to a central position, causing large movements in the aircraft, rather than a more subtle approach. As I say, I’m interested in how this is used. 

What happens is that theres kind of a delay on top of a weird deal with non FFB sticks where more is input when you trim the aircraft; my experience was if you had 5 degrees fwd on the stick and 2 degrees left, hitting trim would store that AND place your stick an additional 5 degrees fwd and 2 degrees left the instant you released the trim button. Resetting the trim to default is just there to get the aircraft out of an unintentional trim into terrain. Honestly I just went to central trimmer mode and it works just fine for me, but I dunno....honestly this is the first heli Ive had problems with flying the first day other than the Gaz, and even that one was because its super squirrelly. The trim reset is to get out of that uncommanded trim so you dont crash.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[imacken]

4 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

What happens is that theres kind of a delay on top of a weird deal with non FFB sticks where more is input when you trim the aircraft; my experience was if you had 5 degrees fwd on the stick and 2 degrees left, hitting trim would store that AND place your stick an additional 5 degrees fwd and 2 degrees left the instant you released the trim button. Resetting the trim to default is just there to get the aircraft out of an unintentional trim into terrain. Honestly I just went to central trimmer mode and it works just fine for me, but I dunno....honestly this is the first heli Ive had problems with flying the first day other than the Gaz, and even that one was because its super squirrelly.

You’re getting that effect in central trim mode? I see that in the other option, but not central where the trim takes effect after release and you’ve centred the controls. For me, the 3 stage process - trim, release, centre - works well after getting used to it. 

[Hammer1-1]

2 minutes ago, imacken said:

You’re getting that effect in central trim mode? I see that in the other option, but not central where the trim takes effect after release and you’ve centred the controls. For me, the 3 stage process - trim, release, centre - works well after getting used to it. 

Not in central trimmer mode, the default joystick option thats FFB friendly. I switched to Central trimmer mode.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Hammer1-1