Jump to content

Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

Recommended Posts

It took me a bit to figure out how to use trim to my advantage instead of making things worse.  I have a non FFB / centering stick and I set the center selection in the special tab of the options.

Yes, you have to return the stick to center, but point being, that is the point!  Once I'm trimmed up, I don't even have to touch the controls and it flies stable and straight as an arrow (ok with some excessive crabbing, but that's WIP).  Sure, that's not the exact real-to-life behavior but I have a secret for everyone.  This is a game.  It's not real life.  Hate to be the bubble-bursting party pooper.

Seems most people that are having a lot of control issues with trim are not microtrimming.  Making these big huge 1-time inputs and messing things up.  When I'm transitioning from a trimmed hover to flight, I'm probably trimming about every 3-5 seconds until I'm in my stable forward flight.  Trim, return to center.  Trim, return to center, over and over in micro adjustments.  Same with coming in for a landing (right up until the point you transition to IGE hover which you have to be ready for or you're going to think you're on a carnival ride when you pull that collective.)


Edited by Grizzley78
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This topic reminds me so much of the afterburner noise purist v feedback argument. Some say, "no way, there's no such switch it the real bird, so suck it up," while others say, "this isn't a real bird, let's have some leeway here." The purist argument is another all-or-nothing my way or the highway approach. There is no actual reason that both camps can't have what they want. Want a trim reset? Sure, here it is, but you get to figure out how you want to handle your controls snapping to center. Don't want a trim reset? Fine, don't map it. Easy.

Personally I would like a midway solution where trim reset sets a new trim to the point you're controls are physically set. That way I could kick it some rotation, throw the stick to where I want and then tap the button, and a new position is born. I'm not married to that, however, and will work with whatever ED and the community think works best.

My final thought to all of you fellow simmers is that more options are always better than fewer; just pick the ones that work best for your rig and/or skill level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, cavalier889 said:

This topic reminds me so much of the afterburner noise purist v feedback argument. Some say, "no way, there's no such switch it the real bird, so suck it up," while others say, "this isn't a real bird, let's have some leeway here." The purist argument is another all-or-nothing my way or the highway approach. There is no actual reason that both camps can't have what they want. Want a trim reset? Sure, here it is, but you get to figure out how you want to handle your controls snapping to center. Don't want a trim reset? Fine, don't map it. Easy.

Personally I would like a midway solution where trim reset sets a new trim to the point you're controls are physically set. That way I could kick it some rotation, throw the stick to where I want and then tap the button, and a new position is born. I'm not married to that, however, and will work with whatever ED and the community think works best.

My final thought to all of you fellow simmers is that more options are always better than fewer; just pick the ones that work best for your rig and/or skill level.

Well to be fair to both sides of the argument, all it takes is just getting used to it or switch joystick options in the special menu. Ive flown Black Shark since day 1; it took me all of 10 years to figure out I was flying it wrong...and even still had no idea I was doing it wrong until I haphazardly came across it mentioned here. Thats after having been trained by former Huey pilots, quizzed and tested on it using US Army field manuals and I never even knew I was doing it wrong. And dont quote me on those manuals; I aint seen them since 2015. Once people realize that these heli modules should be flown exclusively with FFB capable sticks, people are going to find a way to do it - mostly wrong. But what exactly can you do about it? Find a cheap Sidewinder stick on Ebay, or maybe even an old school Saitek Cyborg Evo - a stick that definitely has FFB. Give it a shot once and you'll see for yourself. Took me 1 try to learn that truth.


Edited by Hammer1-1
  • Like 1

Intel 13900k @ 5.8ghz | 64gb GSkill Trident Z | MSI z790 Meg ACE| Zotac RTX4090 | Asus 1000w psu | Slaw RX Viper 2 pedals | VKB Gunfighter Mk3 MCE Ultimate + STECS/ Virpil MongoosT50+ MongoosT50CM | K-51 Collective + custom AH64D TEDAC | HP Reverb G2 | Windows 11 Pro | |Samsung Odyssey G9 | Next Level Racing Flight Seat Pro

The Boeing MQ-25A Sting Ray = Dirt Devil with wings
 My wallpaper and skins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have now gotten pretty used to using my Crosswind Pedals with Damper so I set none for the pedals, and center spring for the stick. Doing decently with it now and I don't even need the axis display any more in my VR headset. Thankfully I broke the habit of wanting to return my pedals to center after trimming. And yeah I trim in small increments.

  • Like 1

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/27/2022 at 6:21 PM, Raptor9 said:

No, I don't think you get it. If you were to get into any other helo module in DCS (exception of the Gazelle since that is its own thing), enable Default trim mode, get into the cockpit, enable the controls indicator overlay, push the stick forward, press and release the force trim/"trimmer" button, you will see the same logic in the control indicator overlay that you would if you use "Instant Trim" in the DCS AH-64D.

So I just tested this because I was curious about this assertation, compared UH-1H with AH-64D behaviour. What I saw was as you described: pretty much the same behaviour.

However the big and critical difference between these two aircraft is the delay between button release and 'trim set' so to say. In the Apache you have microseconds to centre the stick before it adds the input onto the new trim. In Huey on the other hand there is a noticeable delay where the control freezes, which is key to allowing the pilot to recenter the stick before it comes alive again.

So in summary, if we want the same trimming technique in apache as we have in huey, we need a slightly longer delay between button press and reactivation of the controls. Or even better, a slider option in the special menu.

 

Edit: Along a similar note, IMO it would also be manageable if the change of trim centres was smooth. So you are trimmed half back, then move the input to half forward and retrim, then instead of it instantly snapping, it will smoothly glide forward. This glide of course being at a rate that a human can match on the way back, ie 1-2 seconds. Same applies to the eventual trimmer reset.


Edited by Swift.
  • Like 2

476th Discord   |    476th Website    |    Swift Youtube
Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, dburne said:

I have now gotten pretty used to using my Crosswind Pedals with Damper so I set none for the pedals, and center spring for the stick. Doing decently with it now and I don't even need the axis display any more in my VR headset. Thankfully I broke the habit of wanting to return my pedals to center after trimming. And yeah I trim in small increments.

Same here with my damper modified Crosswind pedals, I removed the spring and changed the setting to FFB no spring and loving it. This also works great with the  Ka-50, Mi-8 and the Huey.

  • Like 2

 

 

Spoiler:

MSI Z790 Carbon WIFI, i9 14900KF, 64GB DDR4, MSI RTX 4090, Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle, VKB Gunfighter Ultimate MCG Pro w/200mm Extension, Winwing Orion Rudder Pedals W/damper, UTC MK II Pro, Virpil TCS Plus Collective, Dell AW3418DW Gsync monitor, 970 Pro M2 1TB (for DCS), Playseat Air Force Seat, KW-980 Jetseat, Vaicom Pro, 3X TM Cougar with Lilliput 8" screens. Tek Creations panels and controllers.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Future improvements to the flight modelling (if any) to make the Apache more stable, plus auto hover, might make this trim thing less of an issue. One can get use to whatever trim suits you. It's in those weird situations when you move the controls too much, things get out of hand and whatever trim option you have 'fails' you.

I am all for the trim reset option. I never understood how the game options I select on my PC would degrade another player's realism experience thousands of miles away. Unless it gives me an unfair advantage in MP. The module is just too well made and complex to have it dumbed-down by a trim reset option. Furthermore, there are already a number of 'unrealistic' in-game options that no one is up in arms about.    

  • Like 2

AMD Ryzen 5 5600X | Gigabyte RTX 3070 Gaming OC 8GB | 32GB Adata Spectrix D50 3600 Mhz (16x2) | Asus B550 TUF Plus Gaming | 2TB Aorus Gen4
HOTAS Warthog | TrackIR 5 |
My Files | Windows 10 Home x64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use a brilliant VKB native trim that fixes the axes until you release the button.
There is no need for time lag to center, a completely simple and functional solution for all helicopters.

🖥️MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4, Kingston 3600 MHz 64 Gb, i5 12600K, Gigabyte RTX 4090, Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus,🕹️VKB NXT Premium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, petsild said:

I use a brilliant VKB native trim that fixes the axes until you release the button.
There is no need for time lag to center, a completely simple and functional solution for all helicopters.

Oh how I hope ED can implement something like that, best of all worlds.

476th Discord   |    476th Website    |    Swift Youtube
Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I was planning on doing some trickery outside of DCS with 3rd-party software to disable the axis in the joystick for as long as I hold the designated Trim Reset button on my stick, then execute the Trim Reset command in DCS when I release the button.  This will allow me to reposition the cyclic to match where the game cyclic thinks it is, which will be the most effective way to use the Trim Reset function without unsettling the helo too much.

This is something ED could also add to the module, should they choose to do so, but we can accomplish what we want outside of DCS as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will add that the trim reset at VKB has an adjustable delay by a combined curve, ie the time for which the axes are to be centered smoothly.

🖥️MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4, Kingston 3600 MHz 64 Gb, i5 12600K, Gigabyte RTX 4090, Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus,🕹️VKB NXT Premium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the center force trim option, I often have to pull the stick back to center myself as it can take up to one second for my stick to spring back (long extension).  Same deal with FFB force trim mode which requires letting go of pressure on the stick or pulling back to avoid extra input in that direction. 
 

A time-delayed trim might be something that would work better than the default options.  Let new positions stick when you press and release the button, but don’t allow further input right away until after half a sec or so. 
 

Now don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have new features that are not yet added to make the aircraft feature completed over the trim options any day. 


Edited by Supmua

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero, https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300065-varjo-aero-general-guide-for-new-owners/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am really having no trouble letting my stick get back to center with my 200 mm extension. 

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, dburne said:

I am really having no trouble letting my stick get back to center with my 200 mm extension. 

as mentioned here many times, vkb stick users have a ready solution to the trim issue:

 

i9-10900k @ 5.1GHz 32G XMP-3200 | RTX3090 | 3T m.2 | Win10 | vkb-gf ultimate & pedals | virpil cm3 throttle | 55" 4k UHDTV | HP R-G2 VR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, dburne said:

I am really having no trouble letting my stick get back to center with my 200 mm extension. 

I had that issue, VKB with 200mm extension. Often enough I winded up with a dead stick ..and thanks to momentum and gravity... you can figure out the rest 😧

The VKB software uses a timer for it, rather than 'center' position and as Supmua mentioned, this seems to be really a smooth and reasonable approach. Maybe ED can one day (maybe prioritize multithreading and vulkan... just saying...) implement an alternative way for the center stick option (as additional option). Something time-based. after xxx ms the controls are then moved to whatever the stick is, relative to the trimmed position. 

Tomorrow is a patch schedules that should include the trim reset, but I think I will keep the VKB version, as the timer based approach is so much smoother and even with a trimmer reset I may wind up with a dead stick.. time will tell

 


Edited by durp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Swift. said:

So I just tested this because I was curious about this assertation, compared UH-1H with AH-64D behaviour. What I saw was as you described: pretty much the same behaviour.

However the big and critical difference between these two aircraft is the delay between button release and 'trim set' so to say. In the Apache you have microseconds to centre the stick before it adds the input onto the new trim. In Huey on the other hand there is a noticeable delay where the control freezes, which is key to allowing the pilot to recenter the stick before it comes alive again.

So in summary, if we want the same trimming technique in apache as we have in huey, we need a slightly longer delay between button press and reactivation of the controls. Or even better, a slider option in the special menu.

 

 

 

Exactly this!

Add to this the fact that the Apache is FAR more reactive than the other helos and it makes the difference really noticeable, actually, even though it's technically minimal.

Working on this delay and if feasible, Apache twitchiness would help far more than a "trim reset" option


Edited by Whisper
  • Like 1

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are quoting me saying I should use that other option with the VKB software but if you read the post you are quoting of mine you will see I said I have no problem centering my Gunfighter with 200 mm extension. So I am good for now... :renske:

Should I start to have issue with it as I go I will certainly look into doing that as well. But so far so good for me.


Edited by dburne
  • Like 1

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New trim reset is nice to have available, thanks ED!

:thumbup:

 

  • Like 1

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Is there a discussion or description somewhere that I have missed about the new green symbols in the Control Indicator display?  And the translucent bounding box of some kind? :confused:

 

 

1 hour ago, dburne said:

New trim reset is nice to have available, thanks ED!

:thumbup:

 

I’m struggling to see the point of a trim reset. Very happy with the way trim works.

  • Like 2

Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m not criticising, I’m literally saying I can’t see how it is useful. Please enlighten me. I’m obviously missing something. 

Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, imacken said:

I’m not criticising, I’m literally saying I can’t see how it is useful. Please enlighten me. I’m obviously missing something. 

If you're not having trouble with trimming the aircraft into an uncommanded roll into the ground, then you really shouldnt worry about it. Its there for those of us who need a crutch to get used to how finicky this heli is as its like flying a chandelier in an earthquake.

  • Like 1

Intel 13900k @ 5.8ghz | 64gb GSkill Trident Z | MSI z790 Meg ACE| Zotac RTX4090 | Asus 1000w psu | Slaw RX Viper 2 pedals | VKB Gunfighter Mk3 MCE Ultimate + STECS/ Virpil MongoosT50+ MongoosT50CM | K-51 Collective + custom AH64D TEDAC | HP Reverb G2 | Windows 11 Pro | |Samsung Odyssey G9 | Next Level Racing Flight Seat Pro

The Boeing MQ-25A Sting Ray = Dirt Devil with wings
 My wallpaper and skins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...