Force Trim

[LcSummers]

Thank you very much!

That helped me!

Btw, for me it s the best module. I ve been waiting so long.

I really enjoy the Apache, its a dream.

[Swift.]

1 minute ago, imacken said:

As I said, it is a fraction of a second to get the stick into a central position either by briefly letting go (without a rollercoaster performance) in a controlled manner, or simply moving into that position. Having a dead zone helps with the problem you are having your hands on the control.

Honestly, this is really not as hard as you are making out.  It becomes second nature after a while.

Its a shame that you cant set a deadzone for the controls reactivation separate to the deadzone for the controls itself, because I really really hate having deadzones on my controls, but it is as you said a necessity for the trim to work in anything approaching an acceptable manner.

Its a shame that we only have the two trim options currently present in the game and not an additional one that allows the benefit of the instant trim mode with none of the drawbacks in terms of jumpy flight. But it's true, a few people having no issue with the current setup is a perfectly valid reason to not add an additional superior option. Because as we know, the indifference of the few outweighs the needs of the many.

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, LcSummers said:

Thank you very much!

That helped me!

Btw, for me it s the best module. I ve been waiting so long.

I really enjoy the Apache, its a dream.

glad you are enjoying it

[Joker328]

27 minutes ago, Swift. said:

When you say 'release' are you describing the action of actually letting your control go and sticking your hands in the air, or just easing pressure? Because when you have a joystick that doesn't have a centre detent then simply having your hands on the controls is enough for it to 'not reach centre'. Obviously I could do my best rollercoaster impression and sling my hands to the heavens but then the stick flies through the centre and out the other side, creating an undesired wobble in flight and isnt exactly what I'd describe as 'controlled'.

The way I see it, there are some people who have no issue with the current techniques which is cool. But there are lots of people who do have issues, and the new trimmer option I proposed is a suitable solution to alleviate the problems people have with the other two options.

You need a better joystick, friend

[cfrag]

12 minutes ago, imacken said:

Honestly, this is really not as hard as you are making out.  It becomes second nature after a while.

Agreed. Please consider this:

I like riding unicycles. Don't know why, I just like the heightened control, and it's a great way to exercise. Now imagine I told you: "you don't need that second wheel. Drop it. Riding with only one becomes second nature after a while". While technically I may be correct - it will become second nature after a while for you - there's no real need nor real incentive for you to go one wheel. Same with different styles of trim.   

Edited March 31, 2022 by cfrag

[Swift.]

15 minutes ago, Joker328 said:

You need a better joystick, friend

I think the next step up from what I have is a $1200 force feedback system, so maybe you're right.

Edit: and FWIW guys, I've yet to hear a reason why ED shouldn't add this new system. Everything said so far has been 'I'm alright jack' or 'get good'.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Swift.

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Swift. said:

I think the next step up from what I have is a $1200 force feedback system, so maybe you're right.

Edit: and FWIW guys, I've yet to hear a reason why ED shouldn't add this new system. Everything said so far has been 'I'm alright jack' or 'get good'.

 

I agree. Although Im past the whole need for the trim reset by using central trimmer mode, the only thing the default profile should be used for are FFB sticks, and the only upgrade that can possibly be better than the stick I and a few others have IS a 1200$ FFB stick...which I absolutely wish I could afford. You can argue day and night for the need to not have one but we have it now, so the discussion should just...stop here. Is what it is.  DCS helicopters are built around the need for an FFB stick because thats about as close to reality you're going to get.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Swift.]

8 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I agree. Although Im past the whole need for the trim reset by using central trimmer mode, the only thing the default profile should be used for are FFB sticks, and the only upgrade that can possibly be better than the stick I and a few others have IS a 1200$ FFB stick...which I absolutely wish I could afford. You can argue day and night for the need to not have one but we have it now, so the discussion should just...stop here. Is what it is.  DCS helicopters are built around the need for an FFB stick because thats about as close to reality you're going to get.

 

So I'm not allowed to want a better method of trimming? I guess I'll have to figure out how to code it myself the 

[Hammer1-1]

2 minutes ago, Swift. said:

So I'm not allowed to want a better method of trimming? I guess I'll have to figure out how to code it myself the 

Man, I wish I was hard like that! If its unrealistic, its unrealistic. Essentially everyone flying apaches here is unrealistic; the addition of a small crutch to aid people who've never flown a helicopter - much less an Apache - is a small sacrifice that is basically nothing at the end of the day. Complaining about it does nothing. So, yeah.......

[Swift.]

3 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Man, I wish I was hard like that! If its unrealistic, its unrealistic. Essentially everyone flying apaches here is unrealistic; the addition of a small crutch to aid people who've never flown a helicopter - much less an Apache - is a small sacrifice that is basically nothing at the end of the day. Complaining about it does nothing. So, yeah.......

Perhaps we've misunderstood each other. I'm not saying for there to be fewer trimming options, Im saying the current available options do a poor job of achieving the same effect that the real stick can. And have proposed a solution that works around the issues. So the end goal is that we have the same two options we have now in addition to another option as I proposed.

[Hammer1-1]

2 minutes ago, Swift. said:

Perhaps we've misunderstood each other. I'm not saying for there to be fewer trimming options, Im saying the current available options do a poor job of achieving the same effect that the real stick can. And have proposed a solution that works around the issues. So the end goal is that we have the same two options we have now in addition to another option as I proposed.

I absolutely agree with you 100%.

[Leg2ion]

So - finally got around to downloading the AH module, jumped into the seat - and (I think) veered violently to the left then rolled.  So - what did I do wrong...maybe lack of respect expecting to graduate through flight school in around 5 minutes!?

Went again, and again, and again...different issues though same sort of result - major work for the maintenance teams! Bit of research - happened upon this thread (I was trying to fly 'raw') and have now messed with trim and curves. 

My issue now is I cannot settle on any particular curve values. Initially set all three axis at 8, then after some trial and error bumped them up to 35, back to 25, then to 15, then back to 25....basically what seems good in one scenario may not be too good for another. 

Looking at all 'the discussion/arguments' on trim reset in my mind live and let live - if you don't like it don't use it. The main issues appear to be around landing, take-off and hover. I now have around 3 hours flight time (1 death) and only really tend to use trim once airborne to establish S+L flight. Take-off not too bad but landing (hover is another matter completely that I need to master) is too 'needy' to be able to keep trimming - once on a slowing descent towards the tarmac I tend to trim once and then 'handle it' - only again using trim once safely back on the ground.

Unfortunately I don't think any level of trim will equate to stability - which I believe the majority are looking for from the get go. The AH is a wiley beast -  and does need a fair degree of respect until its nuances are mastered. If anyone has a quick fix to leap into a 20ft hover, maintaining a 0 drift please let me know.

After my aforementioned 3 hours I can now take off (tarmac rolling - a hover then transition is more luck) and for the most part land - and in a breakthrough last night - where I actually intend on landing and not close by!

Edited March 31, 2022 by Leg2ion

[Grennymaster]

so after 25 hours of flying this beast, im used to the trimm very well with my center stick.

I start trimming the bird at 50 knots, under that i keep the stick where i need it. works fine for me.

in landing transition also i do not trimm under 50 knots.

for me the key ist to be very very very gently on the controls mm does the job.

my hovering is not bad till now. i can hold it in an shelter at the airbase (Thahoma )

it takes time and patience

[dburne]

I guess I have just gotten used to it and not having any problem with the center trim with spring on my stick. And I have a 200 mm extension on my center mounted stick. I do not use it on my rudder as I have a damper on my Crosswinds with the spring loosened up enough that the pedals stay where I move them.

Edited April 1, 2022 by dburne

[Frederf]

The old trimmer mode in other helicopters had a blending time. Does or does not this "instant" trim work with a blending over time or is it literally zero-seconds-instant?

[Raptor9]

1 minute ago, Frederf said:

The old trimmer mode in other helicopters had a blending time. Does or does not this "instant" trim work with a blending over time or is it literally zero-seconds-instant?

The new position starts moving the instant the trim button is released in all of ED's helos (I say ED's because I'm not familiar with Polychop's Gazelle). The difference is in the DCS AH-64D the new position is reached much quicker.

[Frederf]

Yeah "starts" but it's a blend of the new input. The tau time was 1.3 seconds or something on the Ka-50. You could even go into the lua files and adjust it to your liking.

[Dangerzone]

13 hours ago, imacken said:

I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be there, and it's great that people who want it have got it!  I just would like to know how people would use it with the centralising option. I'm curious.

I find it handy when I've overlooked re-trimming and find myself in a situation where I need close to maximum axis - and quickly.

An example of this... I'm trimmed far forward. i get to a point where I need to pull right back, so I do (pull back). Problem is - even though joystick is full aft - the calculated axis is now only about center, but I desperately need to be pulled right back due to a combat situation, etc. What I need to do now is hit the trim button while pulling right back, then release to center, and then when it's detected I'm in center again I have to pull right back again to get that maximum aft movement. A second or two in that coz I have to recenter - which could be the difference between life and death.

Instead I'm pulling back - axis is near the center and I realise.... I forgot the @#$#@ trim! Hit reset - and instantly I have full axis available to me - not having to pull, then recenter then pull again.

It is of course handier and easy down on the ground as well - but just throwing a couple of scenario's since you're curious.  Maybe I shoudn't get myself into those scenari's, but what can I say... I play hard.

Personally and with hindsight - now I would have programmed the trimmer differently myself if I was doing it. I would have it work as follows:

Pressing and holding the Trim button would 'freeze the axis'. Then allow the user to move the joystick to where I want (aka center for starters, but could be anywhere really), and release the button, and it will calculate the offset between the two and apply that to future inputs. So if I push forward, hold the button and recenter - then release, this would still have the axis as forward even though my stick is center, and I can continue from there. 

This seems very similar to DCS, but where this differs from DCS at the moment is that I wouldn't need to recenter my joystick, plus I'd have full control when the joystick is frozen, vs when it's active (aka - push and release the button). At present with DCS, there is no option. You press the button, and then it's up to DCS to decide when you have control again (when I recenter the joystick and pedals). I have found myself a few times wondering why I have no axis input on one axis just to realise while I've released my rudder, I haven't my joystick or vise versa, and I was only really chasing trim in one of those. This isn't a problem with normal flight, but in sudden situations I find myself wishing I didn't have that added task or trap there.

Another thing I would do differently is I would also have a config option available for a soft trim reset. So when it's reset to center, it doesn't jump there immediately, but gradually moves there over x seconds. This way instead of a sudden and violent input - it would move back there, allowing the pilot to offset the move (if required) along the way. I may be bias though - I've discovered I can do this with VKB internally - and love both of the features. It seems a little more controlled and 'in control' at the same time vs the current implementation in DCS.

Neither of these is a big deal, and obviously we have to make a hack because we don't have FFB to experience a real example - and ED, and us are doing the best we can. I have found though that different people have different strengths and weaknesses with the 'work arounds' available to us, and that's why I'm always an advocate for having more options available so users can choose what works for them.

Hope this gives an example that you're looking for.

[Floyd1212]

47 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

Pressing and holding the Trim button would 'freeze the axis'.

Bingo. 

If ED added this to the module, problem solved.  In the meantime, I just posted a thread that shows how to do this outside of DCS, using Joystick Gremlin and vJoy.

 

[petsild]

4 hours ago, Frederf said:

Yeah "starts" but it's a blend of the new input. The tau time was 1.3 seconds or something on the Ka-50. You could even go into the lua files and adjust it to your liking.

You can show the exact path to the lua file, thank you.

[Razor18]

ATT Hold already works in normal flight regime, dunno how accurately tough

[Frederf]

11 hours ago, petsild said:

You can show the exact path to the lua file, thank you.

Post #4 details how it used to work. It should still be there somewhere but I don't know where exactly.

[Scaley]

The other thing that is probably currently causing issues is the way the SAS sleeves re-centre vs the trim function. If you are not using the "central position" trim function then the trim activates instantly, but you have to hold the trim button to pull the SAS sleeves to the correct position, and that takes time.  All the time you have the trim button held down, because it's instantly activated, you effectively have a 200% control gain function, where every stick input move the trim AND the cyclic in the same direction. 

The simple solution would be the SAS sleeves start re-centering on "button press" but the trim only hits on "button release". If that were combined with the blending function that brings in the trim over an amount of time (like the UH-1 and Ka-50) then I suspect the handling would be as easy as the Huey. Alternatively add two other commands "trim only (no SAS)" and SAS Only (no trim)" so people can create the mapping themselves.

In the meantime the amazing "pause on button press" via joystick gremlin applied to the trim button is nearly as good, since while the SAS sleeves are moving your cyclic is fixed, but you retain the quick-press function to get at the trim if you don't need to re-centre the SAS.

Looks like this has been fixed in the first patch.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Scaley
fixed

[petsild]

14 hours ago, Frederf said:

Post #4 details how it used to work. It should still be there somewhere but I don't know where exactly.

Quote

HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse = 7.0 - time factor for the period given the player to re-center his controls when using the original trimmer implementation

The tracks lead 10 years back to Black Shark, the parameter for other helicopters cannot be changed.

Thanks for the link.

[pii]

On 3/31/2022 at 11:19 AM, BIGNEWY said:

No,

with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks

centered the trim is set and you then release the stick to centre the spring. This leaves your newly set trimmed position as the center essentially. 

"with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks"

It works quite well for spring centering sticks also, It's what I am using and I don't have a FFB stick. I figure if its good enough for Cosmo it's good enough for me. ")

Edited April 2, 2022 by pii